Jewjitzu
Well-known member
And the ECFs weren't asserting the doctrines of men in the 3rd and 4th centuries? You're funny.
You must be thinking about your ECF pals.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...
Did the DIVINE nature of the second Person of the Trinity "take on servitude"?
Or was it just the HUMAN nature of the second Person of the Trinity that "took on servitude"?
I can assure you that I hold the ECF in a higher esteem over any theological suppositions you may assert. Since none of you people can actually refute earlier post Apostolic theologians, what is to me really what a person born in the 20th century thinks ? Not much indeed.
...... Alan
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Of course. That doesn't mean much.
It's done all of the time. Your friends can't refute what Tanakh and the prophets say.
Have a nice day, Alan.
I answer that the divine person of the Word took upon Himself the form of a servant , a not natures. Besides what is a rational thing of nature without subsisting in that nature , and this is by way of suppositum , which is nothing else than person. For this word person is ,"an individual substance of a rational nature". according to 4th century Boethius.
It follows for the life of me, I have no idea what point you intended to make by supposing ,"Did the DIVINE nature of the second Person of the Trinity "take on servitude"? Or was it just the HUMAN nature of the second Person of the Trinity that "took on servitude"?
Natures are not moved to act without hypostasis or person.
...... Alan
You have not one time demonstrated a proper understanding to refute or negate anything . I can assure you throwing up the Tanakn does not make you anymore monotheistic than this name Trinity.
Hope that helps..... Alan
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
You've provided but mumbo jumbo.
The name Trinity is a plurality. Just like the demon Legion was.
Sure
johnny guitar
Well-known member
The second Person, The Son, took on the FORM of a servant by becoming a MAN.
thanks for the reply, but if the second person took on the form of a servant, and the second person is the same "ONE" nature of the other two person, so how much of the same "one" Spirit was G2758 κενόω kenoo when taking on that form of a servant? because remember, all three are "EQUALLY" GOD. so was it 1/3 of the Spirit that was G2758 κενόω kenoo for the son, or was all of God G2758 κενόω kenoo?
PICJAG,
101G.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
NO such thing as 1/3 of THE Spirit or 1/3 of God.
GINOLJC, to all.
GOOD, because it's not true of any 1/3 of the Spirit, which means either ALL of the Spirit was in that body, or none of the Spirit was in that Body. BUT HERE"S THE KILLER, who or what was in that body of flesh at Philippians 2:6 was equal with God, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" now if what or who was in that body that was equal with God, it was G2758 κενόω kenoo, AND THAT THE PROBLEM THAT IS IN EVERYONE FACE RIGHT NOW.
he who is God that was in that flesh body in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state, could not uphold the universe, (if ALL of God, the same one Spirit ,THAT will not work). because if one say well all of God was in that body, ok, who was upholding the universe then, when he God was in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state? WELL..... and since there is no 1/3 of the Spirit for the Person Son ONLY to beG2758 κενόω kenoo, which would have meant one would have God divided, and that's polytheism by definition. so there is only one possibility left. what is that 101G? answer, JESUS is the "EQUAL SHARE" of himself in flesh as Philippians 2:6-8 states. Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of himself, as G243 allos states, clear as DAY, which means JESUS, who is God is the ECHAD of himself in flesh. BINGO, there is the truth, there is no other way to explain the Godhead other that an "ECHAD", of the "EQUAL SHARE", in Ordinal definition, or the Ordinal expression, of "FIRST" and "LAST".
THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT. THE G2758 κενόω kenoo state KILLS ANY TRINITY DOCTRINE, NO MATTER WHAT FORM OF IT THAT IS PRESENTED. AND IT KILLS ANY SINGLE ONENESS AS THE UPC TEACHES.
Diversified Oneness is the only true Doctrine of God that is BIBLE based. and the Lord Jesus himself taught this, his apostles taught this, his church disciples taught this. so the proof is in the scriptures, and there is no excuse not to know.
thanks JG for your truthfulness.
PICJAG,
101G.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...
When the Son became a MAN, did he still have ALL of his divine attributes?
In other words, did he give up anything concerning his divine nature?
God's inspired Word answers that:
Phil. 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
There is no such thing as double nature in the same person. It's nonsense.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
The Son of God(Himself God, NOT 1/3 of God)became a Man, a servant.
See how simple the truth is???
we already agreed that the 1/3 is out, so now, are you prepared to say all of the Spirit, (which is one Spirit), came in that Body? yes or no.
PICJAG,
101G
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Yep, God who is ONE Spirit, came in that body.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Chuckle!!! Which one of the hundreds of essentially meaningless "Theological answers" would you like???
God is beyond our understanding. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
ok, if the the ONE Spirit came into that body and dwell, then it was the Father, and the Son, and the the Holy Ghost in that one Body.
now, that by itself is nonesense. but if that one Spirit that cameand dwelt in that Body, please explain how, as this ONE Spirit was G2758 κενόω kenoo while in that flesh, upheld the entire universe when his powers was neutralize. scripture, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
here no reputation is the Greek word, G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756
now, as I asked before, how did the ONE Spirit God as you said came into that body and being, G2758 κενόω kenoo, see the above definition, upheld the universe? YOUR ANSWER PLEASE.
PICJAG,
101G.
OldShepherd
Well-known member
I thought Jehovah Witnesses were not allowed to use the internet. There was NO "torture stake"
Tertullian, Against Marcion, CHAP. XIX.
--Prophecies Of The Death Of Christ. (200 a.d.)
"He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men."(14) Now the Greek letter Tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our 341 foreheads in the true universal Jerusalem."
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
According to most reliable sources, see URLs below, the letter "Tau/Taw" in Ancient or Paleo-Hebrew was written as + It is also interesting to note that the Paleo-Hebrew letter "Tayth" is another supposedly pagan form, a cross with a circle around it.--Prophecies Of The Death Of Christ. (200 a.d.)
"He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men."(14) Now the Greek letter Tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our 341 foreheads in the true universal Jerusalem."
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
http://phoenicia.org/gifs/siniatic.jpg
http://www.therain.org/know/palheb.html
Ezek 9:4 and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and והתוית תו/Taw a Taw/"mark a mark" on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."
In this passage YHWH commands His angel to go through Jerusalem and mark a + on the foreheads of all the righteous of YHWH not the "followers of the beast"!The only word in Biblical Greek to describe a + shaped object is, Stauros!
The only word in modern Greek to describe a + shaped object is, Stauros!
"cross = stauros, diastaurono, stavros, diastavrono"
Stauros - LEXICON: Greek-English-Greek dictionary
The only word in ancient, classical Greek, ca. 1200 BC to 300 BC, to describe a + shaped object was, stauros!Stauros - LEXICON: Greek-English-Greek dictionary
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek
II. cross, as the instrument of crucifixion, D.S.2.18, Ev.Matt.27.40, Plu.2.554a; epi ton s. apagesthai Luc.Peregr.34; s. lambanein, arai, bastazein, metaph. of voluntary suffering, Ev.Matt.10.38, Ev.Luc.9.23, au=Ev.Luc. 14.27: its form was represented by the Greek letter T, Luc.Jud.Voc.12.
Greek Dictionary Headword Search Results
The Roman philosopher Seneca, 4 BC- 65AD.
"At the time of Christ, however, there were THREE BASIC MODES of crucifixion referred to by the Roman philosopher Seneca: "I see," he says, "THREE CROSSES, not indeed of one sort, but fashioned in different ways; one sort suspending by the head persons bent toward the earth, others transfixing them through their secret parts [crux simplex], others extending their arms on a PATIBULUM (crux composita)." (Consol. ad Marciam, XX).
In all the early church leaders writings whenever a stauros/cross is described it is always described as +. Note all these early church leaders wrote between 100 and 300 years before Constantine.The Epistle of Barnabas, found appended to the Codex Sinaiticus, indicates this type of crucifixion! The Epistle of Barnabas has been dated to the reign of Vespasian (70-79 A.D.)
Chapter 12:
Again, when Israel is made war upon by foreigners [Amalekites], He [God] speaks to Moses; and in order to warn them [the Israelites], by means of this very war, that they had been delivered over because of their sins, the Spirit suggests to Moses that he should make a TYPE OF THE CROSS and of Him who was to suffer. He thus intimates that, unless they hope in Him, they will forever be subject to war. Moses, therefore, placed shield upon shield where the fray was thick; and then, standing where he towered above all the rest, he EXTENDED HIS ARMS.
Chapter 12:
Again, when Israel is made war upon by foreigners [Amalekites], He [God] speaks to Moses; and in order to warn them [the Israelites], by means of this very war, that they had been delivered over because of their sins, the Spirit suggests to Moses that he should make a TYPE OF THE CROSS and of Him who was to suffer. He thus intimates that, unless they hope in Him, they will forever be subject to war. Moses, therefore, placed shield upon shield where the fray was thick; and then, standing where he towered above all the rest, he EXTENDED HIS ARMS.
[character limit continued next post]
OldShepherd
Well-known member
[previous post continued]
Ancient Christian Writers: The Works of the Fathers in Translation, edited by Quasten and Plumpe. Verses 2-3.
Cyprian, [a.d. 200-258.] Bishop of Carthage (a.d. 248), which he held until his martyrdom (a.d. 258).
Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews.
By this sign of the cross also Amalek was conquered by Jesus through Moses. In Exodus Moses said to Jesus: "Choose thee out men, and go forth, and order yourselves with Amalek until the morrow. Behold, I will stand on the top of the hill, and the rod of God in mine hand. And it came to pass, when Moses lifted up his hands, Israel prevailed; but when Moses had let down his hands, Amalek waxed strong. But the hands of Moses were heavy; and they took a stone, and placed it under him, and he sat upon it and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, on the one side and on the other side; and the hands of Moses were made steady even to the setting of the sun. And Jesus routed Amalek and all his people. That in this sign of the Cross is salvation for all people who are marked on their foreheads. In Ezekiel the Lord says: "Pass through the midst of Jerusalem, and thou shalt mark the sign Tau/+ upon the men's foreheads, who groan and grieve for the iniquities which are done in the midst of them." Also in the same place: "Go and smite, and do not spare your eyes. Have no pity on the old man, and the youth, and the virgin, and slay little children and women, that they may be utterly destroyed. But ye shall not touch any one upon whom the Tau/+ is written, and begin with my holy places themselves."
http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-122.htm#P7907_2659601
St. Justin Martyr, Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165.
Dialogue of Justin
Chapter LXXXVI.-There are Various Figures in the Old Testament of the Wood of the Cross by Which Christ Reigned.
Chapter LXXXIX.-The Cross Alone is Offensive to Trypho on Account of the Curse, Yet It Proves that Jesus is Christ.
Chapter XC.- The Stretched-Out Hands of Moses Signified Beforehand the Cross.
Chapter XCI.- The Cross Was Foretold in the Blessings of Joseph, and in the Serpent that Was Lifted Up.
Chapter XCVII.-Other Predictions of the Cross of Christ.
Chapter CXXXVIII.-Noah is a Figure of Christ, Who Has Regenerated Us by Water, and Faith, and Wood: [I.e., The Cross.]
"and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,108 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb."
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
The First Apology Of Justin Chap. Lv.--Symbols Of The Cross.
For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross.
CHAP. LX.--PLATO'S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS.
And the physiological discussion(1) concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise(2) in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby."(3)
CHAP. XCI.--The Cross Was Foretold In The Blessings Of Joseph, And In The Serpent That Was Lifted Up..
Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of an unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type which portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. And the part which is fixed in the centre, on which are suspended those who are crucified, also stands out like a horn; and it also looks like a horn conjoined and fixed with the other horns[/indent]
The Epistle of Barnabas. Chap IX
What, then, was the knowledge given to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred.90 The ten and the eight are thus denoted — Ten by I, and Eight by H.91 You have [the initials of the, name of] Jesus. And because92 the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T he says also, “Three Hundred.” He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one. He knows this, who has put within us the engrafted93 gift of His doctrine.
The Epistle of Barnabas. Chap. XII. — The Cross of Christ Frequently Announced in the Old Testament.
In like manner He points to the cross of Christ in another prophet, who saith,117 “And when shall these things be accomplished? And the Lord saith, When a tree shall be bent down, and again arise, and when blood shall flow out of wood.”118 Here again you have an intimation concerning the cross, and Him who should be crucified. Yet again He speaks of this119 in Moses, when Israel was attacked by strangers. And that He might remind them, when assailed, that it was on account of their sins they were delivered to death, the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross,120 and of Him about to suffer thereon; for unless they put their trust in Him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill,121 and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands,122 and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. But when again he let down his hands, they were again destroyed. For what reason?
Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. Chap XL
God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,61 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.
Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book II Chap. XXIV
4. The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities,137 two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.
The Octavius of Minucius Felix chap XXIX
We assuredly see the sign of a cross,101 naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.
The Treatises of Cyprian. (Cont.)
Treatise XI.8. And in the Apocalypse the same exhortation of divine preaching speaks, saying, “Hold fast that which thou hast, lest another take thy crown;” (Rev_3:11) which example of perseverance and persistence is pointed out in Exodus, when Moses, for the overthrow of Amalek, who bore the type of the devil, raised up his open hands in the sign and sacrament of the cross, [Vol. 1., Justin, pp. 242, 244; Barnabas, ibid., pp. 144, 145.] and could not conquer his adversary unless when he had stedfastly persevered in the sign with hands continually lifted up.
Ancient Christian Writers: The Works of the Fathers in Translation, edited by Quasten and Plumpe. Verses 2-3.
Cyprian, [a.d. 200-258.] Bishop of Carthage (a.d. 248), which he held until his martyrdom (a.d. 258).
Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews.
By this sign of the cross also Amalek was conquered by Jesus through Moses. In Exodus Moses said to Jesus: "Choose thee out men, and go forth, and order yourselves with Amalek until the morrow. Behold, I will stand on the top of the hill, and the rod of God in mine hand. And it came to pass, when Moses lifted up his hands, Israel prevailed; but when Moses had let down his hands, Amalek waxed strong. But the hands of Moses were heavy; and they took a stone, and placed it under him, and he sat upon it and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, on the one side and on the other side; and the hands of Moses were made steady even to the setting of the sun. And Jesus routed Amalek and all his people. That in this sign of the Cross is salvation for all people who are marked on their foreheads. In Ezekiel the Lord says: "Pass through the midst of Jerusalem, and thou shalt mark the sign Tau/+ upon the men's foreheads, who groan and grieve for the iniquities which are done in the midst of them." Also in the same place: "Go and smite, and do not spare your eyes. Have no pity on the old man, and the youth, and the virgin, and slay little children and women, that they may be utterly destroyed. But ye shall not touch any one upon whom the Tau/+ is written, and begin with my holy places themselves."
http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-122.htm#P7907_2659601
St. Justin Martyr, Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165.
Dialogue of Justin
Chapter LXXXVI.-There are Various Figures in the Old Testament of the Wood of the Cross by Which Christ Reigned.
Chapter LXXXIX.-The Cross Alone is Offensive to Trypho on Account of the Curse, Yet It Proves that Jesus is Christ.
Chapter XC.- The Stretched-Out Hands of Moses Signified Beforehand the Cross.
Chapter XCI.- The Cross Was Foretold in the Blessings of Joseph, and in the Serpent that Was Lifted Up.
Chapter XCVII.-Other Predictions of the Cross of Christ.
Chapter CXXXVIII.-Noah is a Figure of Christ, Who Has Regenerated Us by Water, and Faith, and Wood: [I.e., The Cross.]
"and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,108 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb."
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
The First Apology Of Justin Chap. Lv.--Symbols Of The Cross.
For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross.
CHAP. LX.--PLATO'S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS.
And the physiological discussion(1) concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise(2) in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby."(3)
CHAP. XCI.--The Cross Was Foretold In The Blessings Of Joseph, And In The Serpent That Was Lifted Up..
Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of an unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type which portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. And the part which is fixed in the centre, on which are suspended those who are crucified, also stands out like a horn; and it also looks like a horn conjoined and fixed with the other horns[/indent]
The Epistle of Barnabas. Chap IX
What, then, was the knowledge given to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred.90 The ten and the eight are thus denoted — Ten by I, and Eight by H.91 You have [the initials of the, name of] Jesus. And because92 the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T he says also, “Three Hundred.” He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one. He knows this, who has put within us the engrafted93 gift of His doctrine.
The Epistle of Barnabas. Chap. XII. — The Cross of Christ Frequently Announced in the Old Testament.
In like manner He points to the cross of Christ in another prophet, who saith,117 “And when shall these things be accomplished? And the Lord saith, When a tree shall be bent down, and again arise, and when blood shall flow out of wood.”118 Here again you have an intimation concerning the cross, and Him who should be crucified. Yet again He speaks of this119 in Moses, when Israel was attacked by strangers. And that He might remind them, when assailed, that it was on account of their sins they were delivered to death, the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross,120 and of Him about to suffer thereon; for unless they put their trust in Him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill,121 and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands,122 and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. But when again he let down his hands, they were again destroyed. For what reason?
Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. Chap XL
God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,61 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.
Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book II Chap. XXIV
4. The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities,137 two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.
The Octavius of Minucius Felix chap XXIX
We assuredly see the sign of a cross,101 naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.
The Treatises of Cyprian. (Cont.)
Treatise XI.8. And in the Apocalypse the same exhortation of divine preaching speaks, saying, “Hold fast that which thou hast, lest another take thy crown;” (Rev_3:11) which example of perseverance and persistence is pointed out in Exodus, when Moses, for the overthrow of Amalek, who bore the type of the devil, raised up his open hands in the sign and sacrament of the cross, [Vol. 1., Justin, pp. 242, 244; Barnabas, ibid., pp. 144, 145.] and could not conquer his adversary unless when he had stedfastly persevered in the sign with hands continually lifted up.