Reformed theology--and the Biblical witness

brightfame52 said:
As you can see the poster failed to prove I said that and so persists in bearing false witness
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LOL

Are you stating one must first believe before being saved

Yes or no

but see post 94
 
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CrowCross said:
Belief and salvation occur at the same time....in parallel...not in series.
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Are you claiming one does not believe until the end?

Matthew 10:22--King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
 
brightfame52 said:
As you can see the poster failed to prove I said that and so persists in bearing false witness
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Post @^

Obeying the gospel

Your comments

In fact people are saved at first apart from faith I believe. Legally people Christ died for are saved simply by His Blood/Death alone.

Sorry but it is you who bear false witness
 
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TomFL said:
Not logically in Calvinist Theology

Salvation precedes faith logically if not temporarily
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I don't see why it's not logical. Those that believe in Christ shall not perish. That is those that have faith have salvation.
 
CrowCross said:
I don't see why it's not logical. Those that believe in Christ shall not perish. That is those that have faith have salvation.
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Quite simply The Calvinist doctrine of total inability requires it

and holds One cannot believe unless regenerated - made alive
 
dberrie2020 said:
Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
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You ned to define what "accepted" means. You seem to want to have it say those that work righteousness will receive salvation.

Gills says it this way...yet their fear of him, and working righteousness, are not the ground of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by him in Christ; for there is no acceptance of persons or services
 
dberrie2020 said:
Are you claiming one does not believe until the end?

Matthew 10:22--King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
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Endures what?
To the end of what?
Will be saved from what?

For those answers I would suggest you read the surrounding verses and restore the passage to its intended context.
 
TomFL said:
Quite simply The Calvinist doctrine of total inability requires it

and holds One cannot believe unless regenerated - made alive
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Yes, there is a total inability to believe unless the Father gives you the ability to believe.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

God saves you and gives you the faith to believe by granting you the ability to come to Jesus. It is a free gift.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The verse prior to that tells us God has to make us alive....4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It all happens at the same time.
 
CrowCross said:
Endures what?
To the end of what?
Will be saved from what?

For those answers I would suggest you read the surrounding verses and restore the passage to its intended context.
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Hebrews 3:12-14---King James Version
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

How does anyone collate that with faith alone theology?
 
dberrie2020 said:
Hebrews 3:12-14---King James Version
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

How does anyone collate that with faith alone theology?
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Well duh.....if I'm not applying Christ Jesus' ways to my life I'm not partaking in what Jesus has to offer in this life. The sanctification stops. You pull a log from the fire it goes out. It doesn't mean one loses their salvation.

I can partake in something with my mom or dad...then stop partaking....this doesn't mean they are no longer my mom or dad.
 
CrowCross said:
Yes, there is a total inability to believe unless the Father gives you the ability to believe.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

God saves you and gives you the faith to believe by granting you the ability to come to Jesus. It is a free gift.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The verse prior to that tells us God has to make us alive....4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It all happens at the same time.
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But logically you must be regenerated first in Calvinist theology. Your own comments show as much

Other than that you must assume the granting of John 6:65 is regeneration and irresistible

Further you must also assume that in Eph 2:8 the gift is faith rather than the whole process of salvation through faith

It is well known even Calvin held to the latter
 
nd
CrowCross said:
Well duh.....if I'm not applying Christ Jesus' ways to my life
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That's a revealing admission.

CrowCross said:
I'm not partaking in what Jesus has to offer in this life. The sanctification stops. You pull a log from the fire it goes out. It doesn't mean one loses their salvation.

I can partake in something with my mom or dad...then stop partaking....this doesn't mean they are no longer my mom or dad.
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2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

God does not stop being our God when we don't partake of His grace--but that does not mean we inherit His grace unto life either.
 
TomFL said:
But logically you must be regenerated first in Calvinist theology. Your own comments show as much

Other than that you must assume the granting of John 6:65 is regeneration and irresistible

Further you must also assume that in Eph 2:8 the gift is faith rather than the whole process of salvation through faith

It is well known even Calvin held to the latter
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I would still say it happens at the same time.

You van't be regenerated without faith and you can't have faith without regeneration.

Faith can grow after regeneration.
 
dberrie2020 said:
nd

That's a revealing admission.



2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

God does not stop being our God when we don't partake of His grace--but that does not mean we inherit His grace unto life either.
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Sounds true to me. Many people know the way of righteousness and don't act. They know how to escape the pollution of the world. It sounds like God will be harsher to them because they know as opposed to a person who has never heard of righteousness.
 
CrowCross said:
I would still say it happens at the same time.

You van't be regenerated without faith and you can't have faith without regeneration.

Faith can grow after regeneration.
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The Calvinist position is one cannot faith until regenerated

That logically places regeneration first
 
CC

You van't be regenerated without faith and you can't have faith without regeneration.
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I don't know about that. I know you can't have faith without the birth of the Spirit, but one can be born again before faith in the Gospel. However faith in the regenerate is inevitable, when they hear spiritually the Gospel.
 
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