Reformed theology--and the Biblical witness

CrowCross said:
Do you have a reference for that?
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A reference for the Calvinist position ?

www.ligonier.org

Regeneration Precedes Faith

Regeneration precedes faith. In this brief clip, R.C. Sproul explains this single phrase that captures the essence of Reformed theology.
www.ligonier.org www.ligonier.org

Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith.
 
TomFL said:
A reference for the Calvinist position ?

www.ligonier.org

Regeneration Precedes Faith

Regeneration precedes faith. In this brief clip, R.C. Sproul explains this single phrase that captures the essence of Reformed theology.
www.ligonier.org www.ligonier.org

Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith.
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As he said. "is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith."

It happens at the same time. That's how I hear it. Are you saying God regenerates you then sometime later on, perhaps the next day or next week God then gives you the gift of faith to believe in Jesus?
 
CrowCross said:
As he said. "is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith."

It happens at the same time. That's how I hear it. Are you saying God regenerates you then sometime later on, perhaps the next day or next week God then gives you the gift of faith to believe in Jesus?
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As the Early Church Father all agreed on--water baptism was associated with the born again experience.

No one can come to water baptism without repentance and faith in Christ, and to put on Christ--baptism is necessary:

Galatians 3:26-27---King James Version
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 
dberrie2020 said:
Could you please explain how this is not a contradictory statement:
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John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Belief/faith = eternal life. Eternal life means you have been regenerated...quickened, born again, made alive in christ.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Just before that we read....God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Gift of grace, faith, made alive, saved...happens at once.
No contradiction.

Now you may assign a logical order to make it sound linear...but it's parallel.
 
dberrie2020 said:
As the Early Church Father all agreed on--water baptism was associated with the born again experience.

No one can come to water baptism without repentance and faith in Christ, and to put on Christ--baptism is necessary:

Galatians 3:26-27---King James Version
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
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Yes, associated with being born again...but not part of the the cause of being born again.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Read some of these....The baptism here is of the Holy Spirit...not water.
 
dberrie2020 said:
Could you explain how John3:16 renders this not to be a contradictory statement?



You can quote the whole Bible--but that's still a contradictory statement.
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The order...believes..shall not perish.

The bible swaps us the "so-called" order from passage to passage depending on the point that is being made.
 
CrowCross said:
As he said. "is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith."

It happens at the same time. That's how I hear it. Are you saying God regenerates you then sometime later on, perhaps the next day or next week God then gives you the gift of faith to believe in Jesus?
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From the transcript

Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith.
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Regeneration precedes faith logically puts regeneration before faith just as I stated
 
TomFL said:
From the transcript



Regeneration precedes faith logically puts regeneration before faith just as I stated
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If I had to assign an order to it so it makes human sense I would put regeneration first. Even before regeneration I would put Gods election...

But I see it like flipping a switch and having a light come on. They happen at the same time. Sure there's time for the electrons to travel down the wire and get to the light...but salvation has no propagation delay.
 
CrowCross said:
If I had to assign an order to it so it makes human sense I would put regeneration first. Even before regeneration I would put Gods election...

But I see it like flipping a switch and having a light come on. They happen at the same time. Sure there's time for the electrons to travel down the wire and get to the light...but salvation has no propagation delay.
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Ok

I would agree temporarily they happen at the same time but logically Calvinism puts regeneration first and Non Calvinists faith
 
dberrie2020 said:
Crow--I might not be so quick with that.

edited quote box
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No that is not water baptism

That is baptism into Christ; Baptism into his death

This is spiritual baptism

Union with Christ in his death

The death of the old man and unto sin

Union with Christ in his resurrection

a resurrection to newness of life

Romans 6:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5–12 (KJV 1900)
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
 
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dberrie2020 said:
Crow--I might not be so quick with that.

The wording there is--27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

That same wording is found here:

Romans 6:1-5---King James Version
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

That's water baptism--as nothing else types the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ--that we do.
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Considering water baptism doesn't play a role in one's salvation....and water baptism isn't mentioned here....then I would conclude it's in reference to the baptism I mentioned in my link.
 
TomFL said:
No that is not water baptism

That is baptism into Christ; Baptism into his death

This is spiritual baptism

Union with Christ in his death

The death of the old man and unto sin

Union with Christ in his resurrection

a resurrection to newness of life

Romans 6:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5–12 (KJV 1900)
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
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TomFL said:
No that is not water baptism

That is baptism into Christ; Baptism into his death

This is spiritual baptism

Union with Christ in his death

The death of the old man and unto sin

Union with Christ in his resurrection

a resurrection to newness of life

Romans 6:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5–12 (KJV 1900)
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Yes I said that
 
dberrie2020 said:
Tom--that is even further evidence of water baptism--as water baptism was associated with the born again experience(newness of life) and Regeneration--- by most all Early Church Fathers.
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Association does not prove identity

And even then I find the Church Father's interesting but not authoritative

and I dare say you probably don't either

So If you want to prove a point with me you will need to do it biblically
 
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TomFL said:
Association does not prove identity

And even then I find the Church Father's interesting but not authoritative

and I dare say you probably don't either

So If you want to prove a point with me you will need to do it biblically
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The point that might lead to is--if we can't trust the Early Church Fathers--especially when they were united on that front--then when do you feel the apostasy happened?

You see Tom--if water baptism is the front door for the born again experience--and regeneration--then faith alone theology is false.

Either there was a heck of an apostasy--or faith alone theology is false, IMO.

The Early Church Fathers pointed to the Biblical scriptures to back their testimony:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

Tom--that's a direct reference to John 3.

And most all the Early Church Fathers used that Biblical reference to denote water baptism for centuries, and the born-again experience, and regeneration, IE---


ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)
 
cc

If I had to assign an order to it so it makes human sense I would put regeneration first. Even before regeneration I would put Gods election...
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I agree with this order, and technically from the eternal aspect of election the elect are saved before the world began by the Grace and Purpose of God in Christ Jesus 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes God gave the holy ghost first and he pricked their hearts vs 37
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What is your evidence the gift of the Holy Ghost pricked their hearts? Where does it state that?

All men come to Christ through the Spirit's testimony to them--and it's call--it's prick in our hearts. That's why I believe mankind comes to Christ--through His Spirit. That usually comes first.

What is your evidence that prompting--and the gift of the Holy Ghost is the same thing? That's not just the Spirit--it's the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And you may take whatever position you like--but you can't fool God nor yourself--the scripture here testifies God gives the Holy Ghost to them which obey Him:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

That has obedience first. Take whatever road of deception you like.
 
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