"Did Heavenly Father ever sin during his mortal probation?"

[Janice Bower]

Again, those who are saved must do something different than those who aren't. If everyone was saved, then merit, earned, and qualifications would not be important, but some aren't saved and so, one must do something to qualify, earn or merit grace unto salvation. That's what the Bible teaches.

Do you think Christ's followers are lying, committing adultery, embezzling money, murdering people, getting drunk? Give me a break! No one can do something that pays for their sins! Eternal life is a GIFT of God. It can't be earned! Jesus shed his blood for my salvation. What was your jesus doing?

 

[brotherofJared]

Do you think Christ's followers are lying, committing adultery, embezzling money, murdering people, getting drunk?

No. But I know for a fact that many people who claim to be Christ's followers do and as soon as they do, they aren't following Christ and therefore won't be saved unless they stop. In fact, many of the sheepherders of these so called Christian groups have been in the news because they do lie, commit adultery, embezzle money, etc. The funny thing is, as soon as they are caught, they suddenly aren't saved anymore... Funny how that works.

 

[Magdalena]

No. But I know for a fact that many people who claim to be Christ's followers do and as soon as they do, they aren't following Christ and therefore won't be saved unless they stop. In fact, many of the sheepherders of these so called Christian groups have been in the news because they do lie, commit adultery, embezzle money, etc. The funny thing is, as soon as they are caught, they suddenly aren't saved anymore... Funny how that works.

Are you the “works” police?

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said:

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The ones who love him and the Christians (i. e. brethren) are being saved.

That only links keeping the commandments with being saved.

 

[Theo1689]

Again, those who are saved must do something different than those who aren't. If everyone was saved, then merit, earned, and qualifications would not be important, but some aren't saved and so, one must do something to qualify, earn or merit grace unto salvation. That's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches NO such thing.
And you know I'm speaking truth, because you didn't quote ANY Bible verse to support your false claims. What you provided above was worthless "rationalization", not Bible.

The Bible NOWHERE teaches "qualifying for grace".
The Bible NOWHERE teaches "earning for grace".
The Bible NOWHERE teaches "meriting for grace".

Grace, by definition, is UNMERITED favour.

If we have to "earn" something, it's not "grace", but "works":

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

This is why Mormons ALWAYS run away from Rom. 4, and other passages.

 

[Theo1689]

Jesus said Baptism is a saving ordinance. Specifically, that no one can enter the kingdom of God without it.

No, He didn't.
In fact, you will NEVER find the phrase, "saving ordinance" anywhere in the Bible.

I notice you make many bogus claims, but you NEVER provide Scripture to back them up.

 

[Theo1689]

No. But I know for a fact that many people who claim to be Christ's followers do and as soon as they do, they aren't following Christ and therefore won't be saved unless they stop. In fact, many of the sheepherders of these so called Christian groups have been in the news because they do lie, commit adultery, embezzle money, etc. The funny thing is, as soon as they are caught, they suddenly aren't saved anymore... Funny how that works.

Lurkers.... Please note that Mormons have to constantly mud-sling and attack Christians, because they can't defend their bankrupt and indefensible Mormonism.

In fact, the Bible teaches that you aren't saved by "doing good works", or "ceasing bad works".

Salvation is NOT "by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

It is not true that you become saved by "ceasing to sin" (which no one can do).
You refrain from sin BECAUSE God has saved you.

God saves the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6-8), He doesn't wait until we "become Godly" to save us.

 

[Aaron32]

There is so much evidence in Mormonism, scriptures, manuals, leaders' conference talks, BYU, etc. Throwing in the word grace every now and then doesn't erase the rest that must be merited, earned, qualifications that must be met, gifts that are only for the worthy ones.

Just because an author doesn't use the terms you wish them to use, doesn't man you get to rewrite the meaning on an entire belief system.

Regardless of whatever quotes you find, official or un-official, that contain some words you consider to be "taboo", it still does not address the question: "Do mormons believe in a "works-based" salvation?" In other words, "Do mormons teach salvation comes by obedience alone, and works of the Law, in contrast to what Paul taught?" The answer is "no".

The "causality" of works may be question. Less mature or ignorant mormons may follow works our of tradition, a sense of duty, self-righteousness, etc. Yet, that is why there are also many talks on what it means to be converted. Thus, we can go through the motions of something, and follow the letter of the law, which also (by the letter) may technically "qualify" us for blessings. But God is the one who decides if a blessing (including eternal life) is bestowed or not. If a mormon internally complains of the various labors they must perform, or is depressed that they'll never be good enough, then clearly arent converted or do what they do out of the love of God.

This is a very simple matter. The Book of Mormon clearly rejects infant baptism. Do you have any explanation of this teaching if it's Mormon belief that salvation is "works" based?

 

[Aaron32]

No, He didn't.
In fact, you will NEVER find the phrase, "saving ordinance" anywhere in the Bible.

I notice you make many bogus claims, but you NEVER provide Scripture to back them up.

Maybe not that phrase, but the meaning was certainly implied:
Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

ordinance: baptism
salvation: remission of sins

 

[Theo1689]

Maybe not that phrase, but the meaning was certainly implied:
Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

ordinance: baptism
salvation: remission of sins

Wrong again.

1) Nothing is "implied" here. That's simply a bogus word Mormons use when they actually mean, "assume".

2) You ignored the mention of "repent" there.

3) It doesn't call baptism an "ordinance".

4) You continue to IGNORE all the passages which teach salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

 

[Theo1689]

Regardless of whatever quotes you find, official or un-official, that contain some words you consider to be "taboo", it still does not address the question: "Do mormons believe in a "works-based" salvation?" In other words, "Do mormons teach salvation comes by obedience alone, and works of the Law, in contrast to what Paul taught?" The answer is "no".

This is called a "straw-man" argument.
NOBODY here is claiming Mormons believe salvation is by "works alone", or, "obedience alone". If you disagree, then please QUOTE where any critic has argued that. Guess what? You can't, because we've never argued that way.

There are three positions on salvation:

1) grace alone
2) works alone
3) grace + works.

The Mormon view claims works are required, but ALSO claims grace. But there are two problems with that view:

1) All the "not by works" passages which Mormons keep IGNORING (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 9:11-13, 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

2) The fact that the Bible teaches that "grace" and "works" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE (Rom. 11:5-6, 2 Tim. 1:9, Eph. 2:5-9, etc.)

But God is the one who decides if a blessing (including eternal life) is bestowed or not.

You are contradicting your Mormon brethren, who teach that eternal life is a free gift GIVEN to everyone.

This is a very simple matter. The Book of Mormon clearly rejects infant baptism. Do you have any explanation of this teaching if it's Mormon belief that salvation is "works" based?

I don't understand your question. It's like asking, "If the sky is blue, explain why planes are able to fly."

But it seems incredibly inconsistent and contradictory for Mormons to reject infant baptism.
Why is it that someone can "accept" a proxy baptism done to another, but they can't "accept" a proxy baptism done to themselves in infancy?

 

[Aaron32]

disregard

 

[Theo1689]

disregard

It's too bad you aren't humble enough to apologize, and admit that you're wrong.

 

[dberrie2020]

brotherofJared said: Again, those who are saved must do something different than those who aren't. If everyone was saved, then merit, earned, and qualifications would not be important, but some aren't saved and so, one must do something to qualify, earn or merit grace unto salvation. That's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches NO such thing.

Of course it doesn't:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Bible NOWHERE teaches "qualifying for grace".

It does in my Bible:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Grace, by definition, is UNMERITED favour.

That's only one definitional element of grace. Here are numerous others:

Definition of grace

b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance
2a: APPROVAL, FAVOR stayed in his good graces
b archaic : MERCY, PARDON
c: a special favor
d: disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency
e: a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE

If we have to "earn" something, it's not "grace", but "works":

So--did these earn the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Theo1689]

It does in my Bible:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

That doesn't say anything about "qualifying for grace".
If you think otherwise, please bold the phrase, "qualifying for grace".
I don't see it.

What it does say is that we have been "made free from sin".
That's passive. That means a third party (ie. God) made us free from sin.
It doesn't say, "We made ourselves free from sin by qualifying for grace".

So--did these earn the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Nope.
NOBODY "earned' the blood of Christ.

 

[dberrie2020]

No, He didn't.
In fact, you will NEVER find the phrase, "saving ordinance" anywhere in the Bible.

And where do we find the term "faith alone" in the entire Biblical text?

 

[Theo1689]

And where do we find the term "faith alone" in the entire Biblical text?

Once again, Mormons recognize the bankruptcy and indefensible nature of Mormonism, so they don't even try to defend it (they know they can't), so they try to derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, by going OFF-TOPIC and trying to attack Christianity.

The CONCEPT of faith alone is certainly found in Scripture, and you would recognize that if you would stop RUNNING AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 9:11-13, 11:5-6, etc. etc.

But the concept of "saving ordinances" is NOT found in the Bible.

 

[dberrie2020]

That doesn't say anything about "qualifying for grace".
If you think otherwise, please bold the phrase, "qualifying for grace".
I don't see it.

No one argues you don't see it--but this verse has a qualifying element:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Please do notice--the END is eternal life. So--is eternal life God's grace to man, as a personal reception?

What it does say is that we have been "made free from sin".

That has qualifying actions also:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Nope. NOBODY "earned' the blood of Christ.

I agree.

Walking in the light is a qualifying attribute to receive of the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Or--is that an example of earning grace?

 

[Theo1689]

No one argues you don't see it--but this verse has a qualifying element:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Please do notice--the END is eternal life.

I noticed.
Nowhere does it say "qualified for grace".

So--is eternal life God's grace to man, as a personal reception?

Sorry, I refuse to allow you to try to fallaciously shift the burden of proof.
Asking me questions doesn't prove your false claim.

Are you admitting that you can't prove your false claim?

That has qualifying actions also:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I can be (errantly) understood that way.

But that understanding is denied by Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 9:11-13, 11:5-6, which you keep RUNNING AWAY from.

Walking in the light is a qualifying attribute to receive of the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Walking in the light is NOT described as "a qualifying attribute".
That is your ASSUMPTION.

You keep bolding "if", as if that makes your argumet (spoiler alert: it doesn't).
If I say, "If I grow to 6' 6" tall, I can join the basketball team", that doesn't mean I have the ability to control my height.

Or--is that an example of earning grace?

Stupid and false rhetorical questions are not valid arguments.
If you don't have a valid argument, just admit you're wrong so we can move on.

 

[dberrie2020]

Once again, Mormons recognize the bankruptcy and indefensible nature of Mormonism, so they don't even try to defend it (they know they can't), so they try to derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, by going OFF-TOPIC and trying to attack Christianity.

And here we have one who runs away from the opportunity to show us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Biblical text.

Theo--"faith alone" isn't Christianity.

The CONCEPT of faith alone is certainly found in Scripture,

It certainly is:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Which is exactly what one will find being taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.