"Did Heavenly Father ever sin during his mortal probation?"

Aaron32 said:
The manuals are to supplement the study of the scriptures. The correlation department tries to add quotes of Church leaders, and sometimes they get it wrong.

I believe you're referring to "common consent". Members have a voice of declaring what they are willing to accept as scripture. This is why the Standard Works are called "Standard." This is why the Church is not a cult. Our beliefs are not dictated to us.
I'm not aware of votes of new words being added to scriptures. Can you be more specific of what you are referring to?

You entirely dismiss the principle of personal revelation.
"Scripture" is whatever is witnessed by the Holy Ghost. (See D&C 68:4).
Each is on their own path of learning and revelation.
Revelation does not contradict truth. If one statement contradicts another statement, then we can chalk it up as a "mystery", and chances are it's most likely not pertinent to our salvation. Each "ask(s), seek(s), and knock(s)" for understanding.
We are accountable to God for what we choose to believe, and how we instruct those within our stewardship.


This doesn't matter. Manuals are secondary resources.
I would hope nobody is planting the foundation of their testimony on a manual.
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I would hope that a church which claims all others are wrong wouldn't present false teachings to its members! I'll try not to elaborate on what I'm thinking!

Aaron32 said:
IMO - Because of cultural belief. Someone in the correlation department chalks up a theory as doctrine and prints it. Before the days of the internet, I think it was more commonly believed that "doctrine" is whatever a former church leader said, but now that everything is accessible, members have become more cautious from blanket acceptance of any given statement as doctrine.
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If the teachings of a church are speculation or false or unnecessary you shouldn't be using the manuals.


Aaron32 said:
Because your salvation isn't about knowing every little thing.
Salvation is about having faith in Christ, not knowing if Heavenly Father received his endowments or not.
They taught you all you needed to know. Everything else you've been focusing on is just a stumbling block. (see Jacob 4:14)
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They most certainly did not teach me or my family members all we needed to know. We weren't even told that not all families would be together! My mother and sister didn't believe in Christ or believe that the Mormon Church is true. I told the senior companion that and he said it didn't matter. He said they would gain testimonies. My eight-year-old brother didn't have a clue about any of it.
 
Janice Bower said:
They most certainly did not teach me or my family members all we needed to know. We weren't even told that not all families would be together!
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For a church which teaches eternal life, as a personal reception--has roots in our obedience to Christ--that seems like a fantastic statement. Since when is a Covenant an automatic guarantee?

No one ever taught me not to dive into a pool which doesn't have any water in it, either.
 
Janice Bower said:
I would hope that a church which claims all others are wrong wouldn't present false teachings to its members! I'll try not to elaborate on what I'm thinking!
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If someone depends on the church to be their mediator between them and God, or rely on them for salvation, they kind of miss the point of Mormonism.
Janice Bower said:
If the teachings of a church are speculation or false or unnecessary you shouldn't be using the manuals.
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I agree. Especially out of print ones.
Janice Bower said:
They most certainly did not teach me or my family members all we needed to know. We weren't even told that not all families would be together! My mother and sister didn't believe in Christ or believe that the Mormon Church is true. I told the senior companion that and he said it didn't matter. He said they would gain testimonies. My eight-year-old brother didn't have a clue about any of it.
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Did you get a witness that the Book of Mormon was true? Isn't it up to you to find out the answers by asking, seeking, and knocking? Do you accept any responsibility for your learning? Did you not stick around long enough to understand we don't rely on the arm of the flesh?
I'm wondering why this means so much to you when you don't even believe it in the first place.
 
dberrie2020 said:
For a church which teaches eternal life, as a personal reception--has roots in our obedience to Christ--
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Then why can you never address the following?:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

But we hear nothing but ??? from the Mormons...
 
Theo1689 said:
Then why can you never address the following?:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

But we hear nothing but ??? from the Mormons...
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Is there a reason we should? I believe our critics that make the assertion that we believe our salvation is "works-based".

Alma 5:
10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.

D&C 20:
29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.

Maybe you should first prove your case of Mormons' belief in "work-based" salvation, especially when they reject infant baptism.
 
Aaron32 said:
Is there a reason we should? I believe our critics that make the assertion that we believe our salvation is "works-based".
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Nope, it's @dberrie who keeps making the assertion that eternal life is dependent on "obeying the commandments" (which he falsely claims is different from "the Mosaic Law".

So since HE is the one making the claim, then HE is the one who needs to address those passages which contradict his false claim.
 
brotherofJared said:
Nope. God defined it. If u don't believe Eternal is one of God's names, then I have to question ur understanding of the Bible.
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But questioning the Holy Bible is what LDS does best, since LDS believes they will be 'Gods' of their own planets, how do you understand what the LORD has told us to be HIS Truth? The delusion set forth on LDS by the LORD has made you believe this for following a perverted prophet and his fictional scripture.

Isaiah 45:4-6

New King James Version

​

4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
 
Theo1689 said:
Nope, it's @dberrie who keeps making the assertion that eternal life is dependent on "obeying the commandments" (which he falsely claims is different from "the Mosaic Law".

So since HE is the one making the claim....
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There are others who link keeping the commandments with eternal life:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Aaron32 said:
Is there a reason we should? I believe our critics that make the assertion that we believe our salvation is "works-based".

Alma 5:
10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.

D&C 20:
29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.

Maybe you should first prove your case of Mormons' belief in "work-based" salvation, especially when they reject infant baptism.
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There is so much evidence in Mormonism, scriptures, manuals, leaders' conference talks, BYU, etc. Throwing in the word grace every now and then doesn't erase the rest that must be merited, earned, qualifications that must be met, gifts that are only for the worthy ones.
 
dberrie2020 said:
There are others who link keeping the commandments with eternal life:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
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James 2:
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Do you not bear false witness against Protestants?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


...and keepeth not which commandments?


dberrie2020 said:
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Which particular sin keeps that Mormon out of the top heaven in the CK?


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
dberrie2020 said:
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
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The ones who love him and the Christians (i. e. brethren) are being saved.
 
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dberrie2020 said:
For a church which teaches eternal life, as a personal reception--has roots in our obedience to Christ--that seems like a fantastic statement. Since when is a Covenant an automatic guarantee?

No one ever taught me not to dive into a pool which doesn't have any water in it, either.
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Diving into a pool or not diving into a pool is not a saving ordinance. Stop deflecting! I thought Mormons believed families would be together forever. That was a motivation for me to become a Mormon. The missionaries left out multiple requirements.

"For a church which teaches eternal life, as a personal reception--has roots in our obedience to Christ--that seems like a fantastic statement. Since when is a Covenant an automatic guarantee?"

The missionaries did not teach my mother and sister or me about covenants. They didn't give us the Doctrine and Covenants: They didn't mention a Mormon bookstore. I had never heard of one. In the high school library I think there was only one small book about Mormons. I didn't have access to a public library. So get off your high horse!


D & C 82
9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
 
Janice Bower said:
There is so much evidence in Mormonism, scriptures, manuals, leaders' conference talks, BYU, etc. Throwing in the word grace every now and then doesn't erase the rest that must be merited, earned, qualifications that must be met, gifts that are only for the worthy ones.
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Again, those who are saved must do something different than those who aren't. If everyone was saved, then merit, earned, and qualifications would not be important, but some aren't saved and so, one must do something to qualify, earn or merit grace unto salvation. That's what the Bible teaches.
 
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