Invalid baptisms for years

Arch Stanton said:
The [Roman]Church teaches us just like the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution.
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It sure does. with a 9-0 edge to the leftist liberal progressive justices that hate the constitution and will do everything that they can to undermine it and destroy it. This is what the vatican, curia, and magisterium have done to the word of GOD over the past 1700 years.
 
balshan said:
By their focus, who they see as important, where there heart is, what things they justify and how they justify them. But the truth is God is the only true judge.

We are given clues and that is the fruit test.

I went to bible studies (mixed group) run by an RC lady. She was beautiful and her place was full of peace. She started to read scriptures and asked me where is Mary in the scriptures. I said just keep reading and ask the HS to show her the truth. She was in her 80s and God was working in her showing her. She did not need me to tell her anything. Her heart was clearly with Jesus.

By the way best bible study group I went to. Mixed denominations everyone just reading the word and discussing it. No scholars, text books, commentaries needed at all. Just the HS.
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Amen. When I was RC, I went to one in a small southeast Idaho town. Just loving Jesus and learning the word. Seven years later I was fully out of the RCC.
 
Stella1000 said:
What does that mean 'her heart was clearly with Jesus'? How did you discern that? What were the tells?
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When you talk to folks, you learn where their heart is by what they say and do. If a person is rattling off about Mary, Fatima, etc., you know that person is not Jesus centered. You can tell who is and who isn't and who is paying lip service. Not too difficult. It is the fruit of their lives that tell the story.
 
Stella1000 said:
I'm trying to put myself into the shoes of what you call 'born agains' and trying to understand how showing them contempt will help them be 'born again' themselves. I would imagine that if by Gods grace I am born again, I would pray for those I deem not born again. I would try and demonstrate the love and mercy of Christ to them. Born agains tell us that they are 'the elect' and only by the grace of God. That's why I don't understand the contemptful attitude shown to the Catholic people on the board as if they are not doing something right so that they can be 'born again'. Can you understand my curiousity about that?
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We do pray for catholics. We want to see you in heaven. But we have different views on salvation to the extent that our differences are eternal. And sorry, i don't buy the 'contemptful attitude' notion. Catholics love the persecution complex. This is an apologetics forum it can be vigorous and hotly debated. Sometimes we step over the line and sometimes you people do as well. But at the end of the day we want to see catholics in heaven. The theology of the rcc is not biblical in the least so we are going to tell catholics that and by Gods grace maybe some will believe.
 
Stella1000 said:
I'm ... trying to understand how showing them contempt will help them be 'born again' themselves.
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Begging your pardon, but I do not see much contempt from the Protestant side, but I see much from the RCC side. That is most likely due to the manner of our apologetic rather than having any animus toward you guys and gals.

As a whole, we Protestants are Bible centered, while the RCC apologetic is centered upon traditions first, then Scripture. We follow the keystone of Reformation theology, namely sola Scriptura and that forces you guys and gals to find something "superior to sola scriptura" to give a strong foundation to your RCC apologetic.

The "traditions first" is rejected by Protestants because we see it as simply the practices of men, some of whom may have been unbelieving rascals in fancy robes.

Our emphasis on the primacy of Scripture is a challenge to y'all because its forces your side into attempting to prove that the Bible is wrong is when it says this about that. Thus it frustrating because the Bible does not contradict itself, and that frustration makes it appear that in forcing y'all to knock Scripture, we appear to be smug and contemptuous. But that is really not the case.

We WANT you to see the differences in both approaches arriving at opposite conclusions and make a decision based upon consistence and truth. That is because the two opposite conclusions cannot ever be simultaneously true. That is a fundamental principle of logic.

Stella1000 said:
I'm at a point of thinking that this sub forum is less about strict apologetics and thrives on the game playing of one upmanship which I'm not good at. I suspect I'm on the spectrum as 2 of my children were diagnosed in their early years. There's too many dynamics I don't get.
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I am sorry to hear of your struggles with the Autism spectrum especially with your children, but the discussion at hand has no relationship with that issue. The issue is actually akin to learning a foreign language. The beginner will be intimidated by those having more advanced learning and practice.

Because it relies on its traditions, it is the nature of the RCC to not practice Bible verse memory such as the Protestant church does. Therefore, from the perspective of any apologetics discussion, you RCC adherents are very much like the beginners in a course of learning to speak and comprehend a new language. Thus, your frustration source is recognized, but it is not a reflection of reality.

I hope this opens your spiritual eyes to see things in a more constructive light.
 
Nondenom40 said:
Everybody has their own personal interpretations Arch don't pretend you don't. Is Trent Horn following his magesterium's infallible interpretation when he says there is no explicit affirmation of the papacy in the n.t.? Is it Karl Keatings when he says marys assumption isn't in the bible? Is it Ligouri's when he says mary is omnipotent? How bout some consistency huh?
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DiLiguori said Mary is omnipotent? Do you have his quote on that?
 
Bonnie said:
DiLiguori said Mary is omnipotent? Do you have his quote on that?
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That has to be understood in the context of diLiguori's particular devotion.

"As the mother, then, must have the same power as the Son, justly was Mary made omnipotent by Jesus, who is omnipotent; it being, however, al ways true, that whereas the Son is omnipotent by nature, the mother is so by grace. And her omnipotence consists in this, that the Son denies nothing that the mother asks; as it was revealed to St. Bridget, who heard Jesus one day addressing Mary in these words: Oh my mother, thou knowest bow I love thee; ask from me, then, whatever thou dost desire, for there is no demand of thine that will not be graciously heard by me." And the reason that he added was beautiful: "Mother, when thou wast on earth, there was nothing thou didst refuse to do for love of me; now that I am in heaven, it is just that I refuse nothing which thou dost ask of me. Mary is, then, called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature, who is not capable of any divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes."

This is sometimes described as though the moon shines light on the earth it has no light source itself. That is all being reflected from the sun.
 
Stella1000 said:
That has to be understood in the context of diLiguori's particular devotion.

"As the mother, then, must have the same power as the Son, justly was Mary made omnipotent by Jesus, who is omnipotent; it being, however, al ways true, that whereas the Son is omnipotent by nature, the mother is so by grace. And her omnipotence consists in this, that the Son denies nothing that the mother asks; as it was revealed to St. Bridget, who heard Jesus one day addressing Mary in these words: Oh my mother, thou knowest bow I love thee; ask from me, then, whatever thou dost desire, for there is no demand of thine that will not be graciously heard by me." And the reason that he added was beautiful: "Mother, when thou wast on earth, there was nothing thou didst refuse to do for love of me; now that I am in heaven, it is just that I refuse nothing which thou dost ask of me. Mary is, then, called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature, who is not capable of any divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes."

This is sometimes described as though the moon shines light on the earth it has no light source itself. That is all being reflected from the sun.
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Hogwash. First off that explanation is utter nonsense. "She's omnipotent, but she's not" is basically what they are saying. Secondly it's not just one quote. He says it repeatedly. I have that drivel in my library..I'll cite some others later.
 
Stella1000 said:
That has to be understood in the context of diLiguori's particular devotion.

"As the mother, then, must have the same power as the Son, justly was Mary made omnipotent by Jesus, who is omnipotent; it being, however, al ways true, that whereas the Son is omnipotent by nature, the mother is so by grace. And her omnipotence consists in this, that the Son denies nothing that the mother asks; as it was revealed to St. Bridget, who heard Jesus one day addressing Mary in these words: Oh my mother, thou knowest bow I love thee; ask from me, then, whatever thou dost desire, for there is no demand of thine that will not be graciously heard by me." And the reason that he added was beautiful: "Mother, when thou wast on earth, there was nothing thou didst refuse to do for love of me; now that I am in heaven, it is just that I refuse nothing which thou dost ask of me. Mary is, then, called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature, who is not capable of any divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes."

This is sometimes described as though the moon shines light on the earth it has no light source itself. That is all being reflected from the sun.
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Heresy is heresy no matter the context. Worship is heresy. Making Mary a goddess with God's attributes is heresy. No matter how you like to twist it.
 
Stella1000 said:
That has to be understood in the context of diLiguori's particular devotion.

"As the mother, then, must have the same power as the Son, justly was Mary made omnipotent by Jesus, who is omnipotent; it being, however, al ways true, that whereas the Son is omnipotent by nature, the mother is so by grace. And her omnipotence consists in this, that the Son denies nothing that the mother asks; as it was revealed to St. Bridget, who heard Jesus one day addressing Mary in these words: Oh my mother, thou knowest bow I love thee; ask from me, then, whatever thou dost desire, for there is no demand of thine that will not be graciously heard by me." And the reason that he added was beautiful: "Mother, when thou wast on earth, there was nothing thou didst refuse to do for love of me; now that I am in heaven, it is just that I refuse nothing which thou dost ask of me. Mary is, then, called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature, who is not capable of any divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes."

This is sometimes described as though the moon shines light on the earth it has no light source itself. That is all being reflected from the sun.
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I thought that would be how diLiguori would justify calling Mary omnipotent. And it is a very....foolish reason to call her that. God answering our prayers in Jesus' Name doesn't make anyone "omnipotent"--not even Mary. But it does make us blessed and grateful!

Too bad diLiguori wasn't as devoted to Jesus Christ as he was to His mother. I have read some of his The Glories of Mary and it is one of the....vilest books I have ever read. I nearly gagged over some of the stuff he wrote in that book, especially the prayers to Mary he has at the end of each chapter. He made a goddess out of the gentle and humble maid of Nazareth. Absolutely shameful.
 
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balshan said:
Heresy is heresy no matter the context. Worship is heresy. Making Mary a goddess with God's attributes is heresy. No matter how you like to twist it.
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Have you ever read any of diLiguori's The Glories of Mary? It is available for free on-line. I certainly would never pay money for it!
 
Nondenom40 said:
Hogwash. First off that explanation is utter nonsense. "She's omnipotent, but she's not" is basically what they are saying. Secondly it's not just one quote. He says it repeatedly. I have that drivel in my library..I'll cite some others later.
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Here is what I found on a Q&A from Church Militant.

The key is that Mary's omnipotence is by grace, not by nature, which means that she is not omnipotent in and of herself. St. Alphonsus Liguori had been a lawyer before becoming a priest, and so while he is very theologically clear and logical, he also is very rhetorical and poetic. I'm not sure I would have used the word "omnipotent," although I see his point and he is theologically correct in using that term (in fact, the Bible says "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me," and omnipotence literally means the ability to do all). The idea is that through grace, we are brought into a relationship with God, and if we are perfectly conformed to God's will, then everything we will has God's own power and authority behind it, since He can do all things He wills. In a sense, all of us can share in God's omnipotence by submitting to His will, but it is not our own omnipotence, it is God's omnipotence in and through us (i.e. by grace, not by nature). His point, of course, is that Mary was sinless and perfectly conformed to God's will, so she has the fullness of what we are all called to. She shares more fully in the divine life of grace than any of us.

-Micah



]Jesus, Who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is so only by grace.(In Conc. Ev., c.17) Liguori[/b]



From the Church Militant
 
organgrinder said:
Here is what I found on a Q&A from Church Militant.

The key is that Mary's omnipotence is by grace, not by nature, which means that she is not omnipotent in and of herself. St. Alphonsus Liguori had been a lawyer before becoming a priest, and so while he is very theologically clear and logical, he also is very rhetorical and poetic. I'm not sure I would have used the word "omnipotent," although I see his point and he is theologically correct in using that term (in fact, the Bible says "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me," and omnipotence literally means the ability to do all). The idea is that through grace, we are brought into a relationship with God, and if we are perfectly conformed to God's will, then everything we will has God's own power and authority behind it, since He can do all things He wills. In a sense, all of us can share in God's omnipotence by submitting to His will, but it is not our own omnipotence, it is God's omnipotence in and through us (i.e. by grace, not by nature). His point, of course, is that Mary was sinless and perfectly conformed to God's will, so she has the fullness of what we are all called to. She shares more fully in the divine life of grace than any of us.

-Micah



]Jesus, Who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is so only by grace.(In Conc. Ev., c.17) Liguori[/b]



From the Church Militant
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Thanks, OG for this. But anyone now in heaven shares more fully in the divine life of grace than anyone on earth. Wouldn't that make them omnipotent, too?
 
Bonnie said:
Have you ever read any of diLiguori's The Glories of Mary? It is available for free on-line. I certainly would never pay money for it!
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Only the many slabs that are posted on here. They all show his heretical views. I appreciate all the research done by others. I must thank the large number of non RCs, real believers who research in depth a huge number of topics and point out the problems with the RC teachings and beliefs. I used to do it but lately have too much on my plate.
 
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