Cheap Grace faith alone

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Matthew 10:24-39

The Meaning of Discipleship

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.


That’s what the majority of churches teach that all one has to do is "accept Jesus" and you will experience the abundant life and everything will be great and God will bless you with the desires of your heart. And we wonder why the " church" in America has no influence in our culture.

Just believe you are saved by faith alone and Jesus covers all your sinful continued lifestyle, no need to obey Him.

The fact is Jesus made it hard to follow Him and said it might very well cost you your life, family, friends etc..... He said to count the cost before attempting to follow Him and many turned away from Him. In fact, Jesus said if the hate Me they will hate you and you will suffer persecution on My behalf. God’s word promises believers that they will face various trials but God will be there will you so that you might stand up under those trials. This easy believism in our culture has no effect on it whatsoever but those who count the cost and Jesus is their Lord will endure under hardship and He will sustain you. Most want to go to a church that makes them feel good, build up their self-esteem and continue to live in their sins because " Jesus has forgiven you ". It’s a sad case how those teachers are leading people away from the Living God with their heresies, wolves in sheep's clothing.

They want Him as their Savior yet deny Him as their Lord. There is no Savior without Him as your Lord. Why do you call Me Lord Lord and do not what I say ? Depart from Me you workers of iniquity - I never knew you are Jesus words.

Are you His disciple ?
Do you obey Him ?
Do you call Him Lord and yet do not deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him ?

Easy believism is the doctrine of demons without works.

James 2
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

hope this helps !!!
 
1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him[b] there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!
 
Jesus makes it clear faith without works is dead , an empty and dead faith.

No Savior for one’s sin without Him as your Lord you must obey .

Oops

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

No cheap grace from Jesus and the Apostle’s- They taught obedience they learned from their Lord and Master as slaves of Christ .
 
So how sacrificial is your love?

Are you willing to give up your house and wife and family and good life to go live in a hut in Africa with no running water?

Most people on this forum can’t even give up their pride to truly love someone with a theological difference, but resort to accusations, mean words, and snark, let alone love each other as Christ loved them.

When’s the last time you prayed for someone on this forum as if it were your best friend, as if you were praying literally for Jesus Christ who died for them? Shed actual tears? Forewent doing something fun to actually care?

Or just post a few funny insults about the door hitting somebody on their way out and a Youtube cartoon, then go watch a movie, play some golf, listen to high fidelity audio, and consume some great food. What a sacrificial life.

When’s the last time you even spent an hour just ministering to God, telling him you love him, sitting at his feet? That’s less time than most movies. That kind of character reflects then in all you do.

Just chuck a few bucks and books to the ministries and paste a few Bible verses on a forum and your the greatest most sacrificial most heartfelt Christ-like saint that ever lived?

Is that the way Christ lived? Is that what Christ did? When he gave up literally everything he had to hang out with a bunch of ungrateful, selfish, prideful disciples who all forsook him in his time of greatest need so he could suffer for the wrath of God and punishment that all their ungrateful butts deserved?

The problem with preaching holiness, is our standards are just so God-forsakenly low, yet we think they are so spectacularly high.

Knowing I don’t have to pay God back, knowing I don’t have to live up to the standard of the Law to please him, knowing my greatest, most sacrificial work is just a menstrual cloth, a disgusting pile of dung, frees me and releases me from the burden of thinking I’ve become holier than every other man by pumping out a few superficial “good works” and thinking they are the shizz, that they’ve made me achieve holiness and perfect discipleship and absolute Christ likeness, when I’m just being puffed up by my own pile of stinking garbage—but knowing I can’t do a thing, it’s all God’s grace, then I do more accidentally than I ever tried to do on purpose.

Our works won’t fly on the judgment seat, nor will they earn us a place in heaven, nor do they make us better people, they just puff us up into self-righteous hypocritical delusional Pharisees who look down on people who don’t “Jesus” as well as we have managed to.

Any works I will do that count, are works done in spite of me, not because of me, and I will offer my life for Christ to take over—and use if he wants to—but not because I’m achieving a great thing that Jesus has to be impressed by. Jesus did all the heavy lifting, all the substantial works, and I’m just here for the ride.

We will be judged for our works—and most Christians will be absolutely shocked by their abysmal low standards and hard hearts.

But we won’t get into heaven by them, that’s for sure.
 
Dizerner said:
The problem with preaching holiness, is our standards are just so God-forsakenly low, yet we think they are so spectacularly high.
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Shouldn't the solution to that be to get biblical standards rather than to reject all standards?
 
Dizerner said:
So how sacrificial is your love?

Are you willing to give up your house and wife and family and good life to go live in a hut in Africa with no running water?

Most people on this forum can’t even give up their pride to truly love someone with a theological difference, but resort to accusations, mean words, and snark, let alone love each other as Christ loved them.

When’s the last time you prayed for someone on this forum as if it were your best friend, as if you were praying literally for Jesus Christ who died for them? Shed actual tears? Forewent doing something fun to actually care?

Or just post a few funny insults about the door hitting somebody on their way out and a Youtube cartoon, then go watch a movie, play some golf, listen to high fidelity audio, and consume some great food. What a sacrificial life.

When’s the last time you even spent an hour just ministering to God, telling him you love him, sitting at his feet? That’s less time than most movies. That kind of character reflects then in all you do.

Just chuck a few bucks and books to the ministries and paste a few Bible verses on a forum and your the greatest most sacrificial most heartfelt Christ-like saint that ever lived?

Is that the way Christ lived? Is that what Christ did? When he gave up literally everything he had to hang out with a bunch of ungrateful, selfish, prideful disciples who all forsook him in his time of greatest need so he could suffer for the wrath of God and punishment that all their ungrateful butts deserved?

The problem with preaching holiness, is our standards are just so God-forsakenly low, yet we think they are so spectacularly high.

Knowing I don’t have to pay God back, knowing I don’t have to live up to the standard of the Law to please him, knowing my greatest, most sacrificial work is just a menstrual cloth, a disgusting pile of dung, frees me and releases me from the burden of thinking I’ve become holier than every other man by pumping out a few superficial “good works” and thinking they are the shizz, that they’ve made me achieve holiness and perfect discipleship and absolute Christ likeness, when I’m just being puffed up by my own pile of stinking garbage—but knowing I can’t do a thing, it’s all God’s grace, then I do more accidentally than I ever tried to do on purpose.

Our works won’t fly on the judgment seat, nor will they earn us a place in heaven, nor do they make us better people, they just puff us up into self-righteous hypocritical delusional Pharisees who look down on people who don’t “Jesus” as well as we have managed to.

Any works I will do that count, are works done in spite of me, not because of me, and I will offer my life for Christ to take over—and use if he wants to—but not because I’m achieving a great thing that Jesus has to be impressed by. Jesus did all the heavy lifting, all the substantial works, and I’m just here for the ride.

We will be judged for our works—and most Christians will be absolutely shocked by their abysmal low standards and hard hearts.

But we won’t get into heaven by them, that’s for sure.
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Thanks for the ad hominems.
 
Dizerner said:
So how sacrificial is your love?

Most people on this forum can’t even give up their pride to truly love someone with a theological difference, but resort to accusations, mean words, and snark, let alone love each other as Christ loved them.

When’s the last time you prayed for someone on this forum as if it were your best friend, as if you were praying literally for Jesus Christ who died for them? Shed actual tears? Forewent doing something fun to actually care?

When’s the last time you even spent an hour just ministering to God, telling him you love him, sitting at his feet? That’s less time than most movies. That kind of character reflects then in all you do.

Is that the way Christ lived? Is that what Christ did? When he gave up literally everything he had to hang out with a bunch of ungrateful, selfish, prideful disciples who all forsook him in his time of greatest need so he could suffer for the wrath of God and punishment that all their ungrateful butts deserved?

The problem with preaching holiness, is our standards are just so God-forsakenly low, yet we think they are so spectacularly high.


Our works won’t fly on the judgment seat, nor will they earn us a place in heaven, nor do they make us better people, they just puff us up into self-righteous hypocritical delusional Pharisees who look down on people who don’t “Jesus” as well as we have managed to.


We will be judged for our works—and most Christians will be absolutely shocked by their abysmal low standards and hard hearts.
Click to expand...
Just a few comments and some people here know me and what I've been going through this last week since Wednesday.


1- My unbelieving agnostic cousin who is 2 years my younger I found out last Wednesday afternoon had stage 5 bone cancer that spread throughout his entire body

2- I work in senior living where our community cares for the elderly that are unable to live at home or family so they choose assisted living to help them with the things they are no longer able to do on their own like make meals, shower, incontinent etc.....

3- The most impostant job is the one that pays the least minimum wage they are the caregivers

4- Everyone who knows me knows I champion for them and appreciate what they do. You could not pay me $300 per hour to do that job for one reason and one reason only- incontinecy, changing them and the bathing/showering aspects.

5- On Thursday morning I drove quite a ways to see him in the hospital before visiting hours as I have a hospice background and they let me into see him alone. I spent 3 hours with him Thursday morning. We spent allot of time together as children teenager and young adults in our 20's so he knows what I was like before and after Christ saved me.

6- He asked me several times during that visit to pray for him and with him as he was facing death and was very scared. I did that with him throughout our visit. I shared the gospel with him and asked the Lord to be merciful to him, forgive him of his life,sins apart from Him. I didn't ask him to pray out-loud but I let him know God knows your heart and you can ask him silently, that is between you and God.

7- I at that time did not know if anything happened and I was planning to visit him Sunday at his home a few hours from my home. But when I talked with my wife I was burdened because he might not make it to Sunday. So I went to see him early Saturday morning.

8- There were several visitors and he looked worse than Thursday and his skin color was changing. He had a bad smelly accident and defecated all over himself and the bedding. His wife asked everyone to leave and go outside. Danny my cousin asked me to help and stay behind. I was immediately convicted to help when I was hoping one of the other women would of volunteered . I have only changed my children's diapers when they were infants and even then it was very seldom.

9- So I helped her through this 1 hour process of changing out the bedding, cleaning him and trying to move him from side to side. He was around 250 pounds of dead weight since he couldn't do anything because of extreme pain and inability to help.

10- He was very thankful that I helped her do this and told me he loved me. Danny asked several times that day for me to pray with him which I did.

11- On one occasion his older brother in law who is 78 was right next to him on the other side of the bed when he asked me to pray and it was just the 3 of us. I shared the story of Jesus on the cross with the 2 criminals and how they both treated and responded to Jesus in different ways. I let Danny know that today if he were to die he too could be with Jesus in Paradise is like the criminal he placed his faith in Him. He said Nick I did that on Thursday when you prayed with me and I know God did something to me because I felt very different inside and I felt peace for the first time. I was overjoyed and his brother in law had the biggest smile on his face hearing that and said the words praise God. He is not a religious man but he was able to hear the gospel as well and the prayers that were shared with Danny that day.

12- He went to be with His Lord and Savior yesterday at 3:15 pm in the afternoon. Another thing he had mentioned to family is that he only wanted to discuss God with me and no one else including his wife. So Gods hand was all over this situation, humbled me and Danny at the same time.

13- So yes I love God, I love others and I share the gospel with every single opportunity Jesus presents me with on a daily basis. I love being a witness for him with my family, coworkers, neighborhood, friends and church family. Its who and what I am.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Cheap Grace !

The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Jesus, in His Great Commission to the 11 remaining disciples, commanded them to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). Evangelism and discipleship go hand in hand. A disciple is one who observes (keeps, obeys) all that Jesus has commanded. There is no two-stage process in Christianity—first, be saved; then become a disciple. This arbitrary distinction is foreign to the New Testament and therefore foreign to Christianity.

To play off the title of Bonhoeffer’s book, let’s look at what Jesus said to His disciples about discipleship in Luke 14:25-33. In that passage, Jesus says to the crowds that no one can be His disciple unless they first hate their family (v. 26). Furthermore, the one who cannot bear his own cross cannot be His disciple (v. 27). Two conditions are given by Jesus in order to be His disciple. The first is to be willing to renounce family in order to follow Jesus. The second is to be willing to die, both literally and metaphorically (“die to self”) in order to follow Jesus. Jesus then gives two examples of “counting the cost.” The first is an example of a man who desires to build a tower without first counting the cost of building the tower. After realizing he cannot complete it, he gives up in shame and embarrassment. The second is that of a king preparing to go to battle and making sure he can defend against the superior foe. The point Jesus is making is that discipleship has a cost.

Furthermore, discipleship requires repentance and obedience. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, the message He preached was a message of repentance (Matthew 4:17). The message of the apostles after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension was also one of repentance (Acts 2:38). Along with repentance comes obedience. Jesus told a crowd of listeners that salvation and obedience go hand in hand: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46). Jesus then goes on to differentiate the one who builds his house on the sand from the one who builds his house on the rock, that is, the man who not only hears the words of Jesus, but does them, too.

Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace! got?

hope this helps !!!
 
Dizerner said:
Any works I will do that count, are works done in spite of me, not because of me, and I will offer my life for Christ to take over—and use if he wants to—but not because I’m achieving a great thing that Jesus has to be impressed by. Jesus did all the heavy lifting, all the substantial works, and I’m just here for the ride.
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Is that not the discipleship Civic spoke of?

to die to self and live for Christ
 
praise_yeshua said:
If I asked the average Christian how do you show/express discipleship in Jesus Christ, I would get dozens of different answers.

Those answers would reflect the quality of faith that a person KNOWS. Peter warned us of the "trial of faith". A "trail" we find witnessed in his own personal life recorded in the Scriptures.

To me, when a person says " to die to self and live for Christ".......they are advocating for certain moral actions that fall within their own spectrum of acceptance.

We must recognize, we all are different people. We all have the same Master. Though we are tied together in fellowship within the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we have only ONE Master to please. There is no doubt whatsoever, everyone has their own opinion of what that entails.

I first ask......

How is your attempt at living above sin working for you?
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Amen brother !

Preach it !
 
civic said:
Matthew 10:24-39

The Meaning of Discipleship

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.


That’s what the majority of churches teach that all one has to do is "accept Jesus" and you will experience the abundant life and everything will be great and God will bless you with the desires of your heart. And we wonder why the " church" in America has no influence in our culture.

Just believe you are saved by faith alone and Jesus covers all your sinful continued lifestyle, no need to obey Him.

The fact is Jesus made it hard to follow Him and said it might very well cost you your life, family, friends etc..... He said to count the cost before attempting to follow Him and many turned away from Him. In fact, Jesus said if the hate Me they will hate you and you will suffer persecution on My behalf. God’s word promises believers that they will face various trials but God will be there will you so that you might stand up under those trials. This easy believism in our culture has no effect on it whatsoever but those who count the cost and Jesus is their Lord will endure under hardship and He will sustain you. Most want to go to a church that makes them feel good, build up their self-esteem and continue to live in their sins because " Jesus has forgiven you ". It’s a sad case how those teachers are leading people away from the Living God with their heresies, wolves in sheep's clothing.

They want Him as their Savior yet deny Him as their Lord. There is no Savior without Him as your Lord. Why do you call Me Lord Lord and do not what I say ? Depart from Me you workers of iniquity - I never knew you are Jesus words.

Are you His disciple ?
Do you obey Him ?
Do you call Him Lord and yet do not deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him ?

Easy believism is the doctrine of demons without works.

James 2
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

hope this helps !!!
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You're definitely on to something with this thread. I think all effective discipleship starts with the empty tomb then Pentecost. Pentecost is the final—but vital—link in the chain that moves us from a terrified, timid group of disciples before Jesus’ death to the powerful, confident proclaimers of good news throughout the whole world. The contrast between the disciples before Jesus’ death and after Pentecost could not be greater.

Before Jesus’ death the disciples struggled to understand who Jesus really was, they failed to stay awake in the garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus needed their company and, at his arrest when he needed them most, they ran away. After Pentecost the disciples spread throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus whatever the cost. They became inspiring and confident communicators, infused with joy and enthusiasm.

I think the reason for this is Jesus left us the Holy Spirit and were now able to live for and abide in Christ. I know It is easy to attribute this solely to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, but if you do that you misunderstand the chain of events that leads up to this point. Jesus’ death destroyed all the disciples’ expectations about who he was. They all ran away. The resurrection put these expectations back together again in a different order and helped them to understand who Jesus really was. The ascension opened up a space that required them to act and, finally, the coming of the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to do so. The ability to abide, abide, abide.

John.15​

[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Part of any relationship with God is having the unwavering faith that God will do exactly what He said He would do.....

This includes believing He will faithfully forgive us.

I'm sure most of you will agree. I'm a rather dumb and forgetful creature often incapable of helping myself. The words our lips are a witness to HIS FAITHFULNESS.....
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Indeed brother
 
Predestined said:
You're definitely on to something with this thread. I think all effective discipleship starts with the empty tomb then Pentecost. Pentecost is the final—but vital—link in the chain that moves us from a terrified, timid group of disciples before Jesus’ death to the powerful, confident proclaimers of good news throughout the whole world. The contrast between the disciples before Jesus’ death and after Pentecost could not be greater.

Before Jesus’ death the disciples struggled to understand who Jesus really was, they failed to stay awake in the garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus needed their company and, at his arrest when he needed them most, they ran away. After Pentecost the disciples spread throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus whatever the cost. They became inspiring and confident communicators, infused with joy and enthusiasm.

I think the reason for this is Jesus left us the Holy Spirit and were now able to live for and abide in Christ. I know It is easy to attribute this solely to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, but if you do that you misunderstand the chain of events that leads up to this point. Jesus’ death destroyed all the disciples’ expectations about who he was. They all ran away. The resurrection put these expectations back together again in a different order and helped them to understand who Jesus really was. The ascension opened up a space that required them to act and, finally, the coming of the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to do so. The ability to abide, abide, abide.

John.15​

[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
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I’m going to work next on the misnomer people believe “ Sola Fide” and dismantle that doctrine .

Faith without works is dead and plenty of passages from Jesus and the Apostle’s teach faith/works , righteousness are two sides of the same coin .

One is not saved by faith alone .

Not only is it cheap grace it’s cheap faith .
 
civic said:
I’m going to work next on the misnomer people believe “ Sola Fide” and dismantle that doctrine .

Faith without works is dead and plenty of passages from Jesus and the Apostle’s teach faith/works , righteousness are two sides of the same coin .

One is not saved by faith alone .

Not only is it cheap grace it’s cheap faith .
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Why would you want to do that?
 
civic said:
I’m going to work next on the misnomer people believe “ Sola Fide” and dismantle that doctrine .

Faith without works is dead and plenty of passages from Jesus and the Apostle’s teach faith/works , righteousness are two sides of the same coin .

One is not saved by faith alone .

Not only is it cheap grace it’s cheap faith .
Click to expand...
Sounds interesting I'll start digging into it now and see what I come up with. One thing for sure it will be like poking the hornets nest with a stick.

Basically it seems to be a disagreement or an misunderstanding between what James wrote and what Paul wrote. Maybe James is out to condemn justification by demon faith-the kind of faith that shows itself in High and mighty confessions of faith. Like the TV evangelist guys.
 
Predestined said:
Sounds interesting I'll start digging into it now and see what I come up with. One thing for sure it will be like poking the hornets nest with a stick.

Basically it seems to be a disagreement or an misunderstanding between what James wrote and what Paul wrote. Maybe James is out to condemn justification by demon faith-the kind of faith that shows itself in High and mighty confessions of faith. Like the TV evangelist guys.
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So my old pastor/ neighbor who overseas the seminary doctoral program ( knows fluently Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek ) and gave me a copy of his doctoral dissertation on James from 1978 where he taught NT Greek at FTS . His mentor was Dr Robert Gundry. We talked the other day about James / Paul and I told him my view and he agreed with me that Fruit/ Works in Jesus, Paul and James are different ways of saying the same thing. There was no dissension . That came from theologians not the Apostle’s.
 
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