Anti-Gospel Wolves Accursed by Paul

cadwell said:
Yes. Romans 4:15 refers to the law of Moses. Do you believe the law of Moses was more than just wrath and curses? The unhealthy obsession with one aspect of the law clouds over nearly everything you say.

Deut 11
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jesus redeems us from the curse of the law, and blotted out the ordinances that were written against us, leaving us with the blessings, the things written for us. An innocent man dying for someone elses sins is unlawful (Deut 19:10, Deut 24:16). Gods wrath that is contained in the law is directed for those who transgress it (Deut 11:17), not the One who never sinned.

I am sure everyone does. Matt 5:17 refers to the law of Moses.

Claiming Jesus died under the law of Moses declares that God is unjust. He made a law against killing an innocent man, and then broke that very law.

Atonement found in the law of Moses is replaced by the new covenant in Christ. So He "set aside" the law of Moses by fulfilling it where it was lawful, and replacing it.

The bible says one law was replaced with another:

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

You are conflating the establishment of the new covenant with the demands of the old.
Click to expand...
So then, what's your position on PSA?
 
Dizerner said:
Because it was FULFILLED, not because it was ignored or abandoned, though.

It is FINISHED—the Law—it's finished. It's fulfilled.

Every jot. Every tittle. Every curse against your sins. Every punishment God has promised you as a sinner.

It is finished when Christ was forsaken for you.
Click to expand...

PSA's idea that Jesus was forsaken; separated from God because of sin is unbiblical and turns the trinity into polytheism or denies Christ's deity
 
cadwell said:
Yes. Romans 4:15 refers to the law of Moses. Do you believe the law of Moses was more than just wrath and curses? The unhealthy obsession with one aspect of the law clouds over nearly everything you say.
Click to expand...
You are forgetting something, there is no hope for sinners under the Law, correct? Because of One Man's disobedience (Sin) we all are found to be guilty convicted sinners! This is why you guys confound and distort the Gospel because you don't know what's at stake! Sin is a very serious offense to a Holy God who demands perfect Obedience and righteousness! Failing to understand Law & Gospel concepts leads you into legalism! Thinking you have some wonder inner experience or good works you can measure up and offer to God in exchange to enter heaven. This is exactly what Paul preaches against!
cadwell said:
Deut 11
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jesus redeems us from the curse of the law, and blotted out the ordinances that were written against us, leaving us with the blessings, the things written for us. An innocent man dying for someone elses sins is unlawful (Deut 19:10, Deut 24:16). Gods wrath that is contained in the law is directed for those who transgress it (Deut 11:17), not the One who never sinned.
Click to expand...
Well, Cadwell, you obvious do not understand what God accomplished in Christ for His people! Two things I will address here. In Deut. the Israelites are under the Sinai Covenant (Law), this is to keep them focused on the Promised Seed to come (Gal. 3). But God reminds them of the Covenant of Grace of sending a Messiah to redeem them from the curse of the Law in Gen 15, 22 (Abraham the Man of Faith). But let's look at Ezekiel 36:

I Will Put My Spirit Within You​

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

How many times does God say, "I Will"? This is the Gospel in that it is God's doing for his people!

Jeremiah 31:
​
The New Covenant

31“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This is the Covenant of Grace, Cadwell! Christ restores them from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for them. The righteous suffering and dying for the unrighteous!

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous
cadwell said:
I am sure everyone does. Matt 5:17 refers to the law of Moses.

Claiming Jesus died under the law of Moses declares that God is unjust. He made a law against killing an innocent man, and then broke that very law.

Atonement found in the law of Moses is replaced by the new covenant in Christ. So He "set aside" the law of Moses by fulfilling it where it was lawful, and replacing it.

The bible says one law was replaced with another:

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

You are conflating the establishment of the new covenant with the demands of the old.
Click to expand...
You are forgetting something, there is no hope for sinners under the Law, correct? Because of One Man's disobedience (Sin) we all are found to be guilty convicted sinners! But by One Man's Obedience many were made righteous! (Romans 5).

Know what you believe and why you believe it!
 
Ladodgers6 said:
You are forgetting something, there is no hope for sinners under the Law, correct?
Click to expand...
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

They seemed to have hope.
Ladodgers6 said:
Because of One Man's disobedience (Sin) we all are found to be guilty convicted sinners!
Click to expand...
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

MANY were made sinners, not ALL. There was a long discussion about this, you should check it out and offer your thoughts.
Ladodgers6 said:
This is why you guys confound and distort the Gospel because you don't know what's at stake! Sin is a very serious offense to a Holy God who demands perfect Obedience and righteousness!
Click to expand...
"Perfect obedience and righteousness" is not the same as "dont sin, ever". Perfect obedience and righteousness in the law is "dont sin, but if you do, here is how to atone for it". Following the requirements of the law is how Zacharias and Elisabeth are said to be righteous before God. That does not mean they never sinned, it means that when they did sin, they did those things according to the law to maintain a good standing before God.
Ladodgers6 said:
Failing to understand Law & Gospel concepts leads you into legalism! Thinking you have some wonder inner experience or good works you can measure up and offer to God in exchange to enter heaven. This is exactly what Paul preaches against!
Click to expand...
This much I agree with. The issue with the law is that it produces a dullness in its adherents, a works based salvation that denies the very spirit of the law given to them.
Ladodgers6 said:
Well, Cadwell, you obvious do not understand what God accomplished in Christ for His people!
Click to expand...
I understand perfectly, and everything you say from here on out justifies everything I said. There is an unhealthy obsession with the curse of the law, and a complete ignoring of the blessings. Christ redeemed us from the curses, and blotted out those things written against us. The law was not just a bunch of stuff written against us, it was also a bunch of promises and blessings written for us.
Ladodgers6 said:
Two things I will address here. In Deut. the Israelites are under the Sinai Covenant (Law), this is to keep them focused on the Promised Seed to come (Gal. 3). But God reminds them of the Covenant of Grace of sending a Messiah to redeem them from the curse of the Law in Gen 15, 22 (Abraham the Man of Faith). But let's look at Ezekiel 36:

I Will Put My Spirit Within You​

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

How many times does God say, "I Will"? This is the Gospel in that it is God's doing for his people!​
Click to expand...
Great, but my point remains unchallenged. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, one of which states....

Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

You just proved in Ezekiel 36 that we are left with the blessing....

Ez 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Now that we are walking in His statutes and keeping His judgements, what does that leave us with?

Deut 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

See how that works? The ordinances that were written against us are blotted out. We are left with the ordinances written for us.

Ladodgers6 said:
Jeremiah 31:
​
The New Covenant

31“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This is the Covenant of Grace, Cadwell! Christ restores them from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for them.
Click to expand...
I will be their God and they shall be my people is a blessing from the first covenant (Ex 29:45), that was not written against them, so it remains a feature of the new covenant. Not only that, but it is part of the covenant God made with Abraham (Gen 17:7-8). Forgiveness and not remembering iniquity is also a carryover from the first covenant.
Ladodgers6 said:
The righteous suffering and dying for the unrighteous!

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous
Click to expand...
Amen. He blotted out those things written against us, and left us with those things written for us. You obsess over half the equation.
Ladodgers6 said:
You are forgetting something, there is no hope for sinners under the Law, correct? Because of One Man's disobedience (Sin) we all are found to be guilty convicted sinners! But by One Man's Obedience many were made righteous! (Romans 5).

Know what you believe and why you believe it!
Click to expand...
You said this already and I responded.
 
Johnnybgood said:
From what I have been reading lately not all Calvinists and Arminian’s hold to PSA but most from both camps do which tells me it’s not necessarily a universal truth . There are many different views of the atonement throughout church history. So we must not condemn those with different views . Like @Josheb said this forum can be very volatile and unpleasant at times, not the friendliest place to exchange ideas.
Click to expand...

The majority doesn't determine the truth, or how important those truths are.

Understanding and acknowledging the atonement is absolutely vital because it describes salvation and the way to the Father.
 
Johnnybgood said:
From what I have been reading lately not all Calvinists and Arminian’s hold to PSA but most from both camps do which tells me it’s not necessarily a universal truth . There are many different views of the atonement throughout church history. So we must not condemn those with different views . Like @Josheb said this forum can be very volatile and unpleasant at times, not the friendliest place to exchange ideas.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say PSA isn't a Universal Truth, but agree PSA isn't a Universally accepted Truth...

We should be careful how we say things, a Lurker may be mislead because our language is assertive when it shouldn't be...
 
Johnnybgood said:
From what I have been reading lately not all Calvinists and Arminian’s hold to PSA but most from both camps do which tells me it’s not necessarily a universal truth . There are many different views of the atonement throughout church history. So we must not condemn those with different views . Like @Josheb said this forum can be very volatile and unpleasant at times, not the friendliest place to exchange ideas.
Click to expand...
So far I've never been Banned, so I'm not as volatile as some Posters are; but I know that nothing which lives in my Sinful Nature is good...
 
Dizerner said:
I think you need to consider under your paradigm that sin does not necessitate wrath, and God can forgive without any atonement at all.
Click to expand...
I think you are mistaken

and do not understand my paradigm

Romans 3:25-26 (KJV)
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 
Ladodgers6 said:
So brothers and sisters read God's word and the Gospel that Paul preached, and don't listen to those fools who are trying to confuse and pervert the gospel.
Click to expand...

Of course the following couldn't possibly be YOU, right?

....regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
 
Johnnybgood said:
From what I have been reading lately not all Calvinists and Arminian’s hold to PSA but most from both camps do which tells me it’s not necessarily a universal truth . There are many different views of the atonement throughout church history. So we must not condemn those with different views . Like @Josheb said this forum can be very volatile and unpleasant at times, not the friendliest place to exchange ideas.
Click to expand...
Since there are different views is all the more reason we should study the scriptures on this. Personally, I believe it is obvious Jesus suffered God’s wrath in our place. I believe scripture teaches it throughout. And there are times when these debates really cloud up some very obvious points, and make it difficult to reason out such simple things.
Sometimes we reach for the stars so to speak. It’s as if we have to figure out the Trinity or the HU in order to prove PSA one way or another.
And that’s where we start to reason out the simple truth in the word in the mysteries, sadly. As there will always be mysteries with the Almighty.
There is not a man alive that can understand and explain the Trinity or the HU, though we could have a fair understanding.
Yet, from those doctrines, we try to reason out the PSA.

I believe the gospel is simple, so simple that a young child can understand it. He or she does not have to be dragged through the doctrine of the Trinity or the HU to understand and believe what Christ went through and had to endure for our salvation. It they had to be brought through those doctrines before they could understand “the simple gospel” they would be just as, if not more confused as many of us adults are that take that route before they can reason out the gospel.
 
Our Lord's God said:
Of course the following couldn't possibly be YOU, right?

....regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
Click to expand...
I guess the title offended you, right Pharisee?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top