4 Reasons Romans 7 is a Pre- Christian Experience

[TibiasDad]

Unbelievers are not conflicted about their sin, as Paul is conflicted about his sin in Rom 7:14ff.

That is because the unregenerate love the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds are evil (cf Jn 3:19).

Clearly the Paul speaking in Rom 7:14ff is a believing Christian conflicted by his sin.

@Chalcedon

A faithful Jewish student, indeed a student of the Pharisee’s whose emphatic and deliberate attention to obedience to all 613 laws of the Mosaic law would, and should be conflicted over an inability to keep the law which they have been taught must always be obeyed!

I was raised in a very strict, legalistic Christian home. I was taught from birth about right and wrong and what God says we should do and should not do. I always knew when I was doing something wrong, and sometimes I did things wrong that I didn’t want to do because I knew my parents and God would be angry with me, and punishment would be certain! I knew and understood that the rules were good, and I didn’t want to disobey and offend my earthly father and God. But I always ended up doing what I shouldn’t. The older I got, the more conflicted and frustrated I became , and I was not yet a believer. I was just a religious kid raised in church to obey and love God and I couldn’t seem to get it right, and it was killing me with guilt!

So I know from experience that I knew what was right and didn’t want to be bad, but did, and was frustrated to distraction that I did it again! Then the truth of the gospel broke me, and with Paul, I said that the power of sin could only be broken by God through Jesus Christ! Rom 7:14-from was my life before I found Christ.

Doug

 

[Carbon]

A faithful Jewish student, indeed a student of the Pharisee’s whose emphatic and deliberate attention to obedience to all 613 laws of the Mosaic law would, and should be conflicted over an inability to keep the law which they have been taught must always be obeyed!

I was raised in a very strict, legalistic Christian home. I was taught from birth about right and wrong and what God says we should do and should not do. I always knew when I was doing something wrong, and sometimes I did things wrong that I didn’t want to do because I knew my parents and God would be angry with me, and punishment would be certain! I knew and understood that the rules were good, and I didn’t want to disobey and offend my earthly father and God. But I always ended up doing what I shouldn’t. The older I got, the more conflicted and frustrated I became , and I was not yet a believer. I was just a religious kid raised in church to obey and love God and I couldn’t seem to get it right, and it was killing me with guilt!

So I know from experience that I knew what was right and didn’t want to be bad, but did, and was frustrated to distraction that I did it again! Then the truth of the gospel broke me, and with Paul, I said that the power of sin could only be broken by God through Jesus Christ! Rom 7:14-from was my life before I found Christ.

Doug

There are so many things wrong with this as you try to compare your unregenerate life with Paul as a believer. Wow!

Other than that’s it’s just a common story about any child growing up as a sinner being subject to parents that actually care.

 

[TibiasDad]

You too Doug??

Rev, I've been on this forum for going on 8-years now, and the topic of Rom 7 has been hashed over several times in varying contexts, and I have always maintained that Paul was not speaking of his actual spiritual condition in 7:14-ff. So I am not sure why you would be surprised by my comments.

The Passage says a lot of things; for instance, Saint Paul said it is Remaining Sin in him that does the things he needs Deliverance from. If he meant us to believe this is our condition Pre Salvation, he's saying that at the time (and as an Unsaved Pharisee) he didn't do those things but Remaining Sin did them; IE his Old Man...

There is a lot of ideas in this, and I don't have the umph right now to unpack it all, so I'll make two observations:

1) Paul does not say it was sin "remaining" in him that did it, but that sin dwelling in him did it. οἰκέω, is the word, which means "to inhabit, to indwell, dwell" (Strong) and is used 9 times in the NT, all by Paul, with Rom 7:17 being the first occurrence and again in 7:18, 20, then again in 8:9, and 8:11. All nine times it refers to something living or dwelling within something or someone. There is no evidence for "remaining" being the idea superimposes. Besides, the issue is not about the presence of sin within us, it is a a question of whole in control. Whose will and capacity is reigning. That's why he says "it is no longer I who does it, but the sin dwelling in me that causes me to do what I don't want to do. My will, Paul says, is not in control, but the will of sin, so to speak, to which I am enslaved.

2) Paul is not attempting to pass the buck from himself to sin, as if to say it's not my fault, the devil made me do it! (a Flip Wilson idiom, if you're old enough to remember him) He is expressing the evidence for his earlier assessment of his spiritual condition, " I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin", without recourse or authority to alter my behavior or condition, try and desire as he might. I am dead, unspiritual, and a slave to sin who reigns over me and superimposes it's will and desires over his as it chooses!

He didn't have an Old Man as a Pharisee, he was the Old Man...

No, he was under the power and reign of sin, that lives within him. Sin was not the Old Man yet, it was his master. It becomes the Old Man because its desires and actions represent the the type of lifestyle that marked the behavior of the pre-Christian Paul, but was not at all the image of the new creation Paul. That old version is still dwelling, but its power and authority have been overthrown, and a new master has ascended the throne. Thus, as Paul says is the reality of the Christian condition, our Old Man has been destroyed, done away with, discarded. (Rom 6:6) We have died, and thus have been set free from sin's dominion and authority, and it shall no longer be our master and we are no longer obligated to do as it it demands. (6:5-14, 18, 8:12)


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There are so many things wrong with this as you try to compare your unregenerate life with Paul as a believer. Wow!

Other than that’s it’s just a common story about any child growing up as a sinner being subject to parents that actually care.

Howie said, "Unbelievers are not conflicted about their sin, as Paul is conflicted about his sin in Rom 7:14ff."

I gave a reasonable argument that says that his premise is not necessarily true, as I see me having had an experience, prior to believing in Christ, that mirrors the experience described in Rom 7:14-ff. I see many unbelievers conflicted about their sin in my pastoral duties. As long as they think they can be good enough and will eventually overcome yielding to temptation, they will fail, exacerbating their conflicting frustration, and putting themselves on the merry-go-round of defeat. Sin's authority and control over us is only broken by the cross. We can never overcome it in any other way!

If we are incapable of doing what we know is good, no matter how hard we try or desire to do it, we cannot be a believer. It's just not possible. For the believer, sin is defeated, and God always provides a way of escaping sin's enticement! (1 Cor 10:13)

Again, in Rom 6 and 8, Paul says the be a believer is to be free from sin's bondage and control yet 7 says he is dead, unspiritual, and sold as a slave to sin's dominion. If that is the reality of Paul when he wrote those words, and the reality of all Christians, then we are most unfortunate, and to be pitied, and our gospel is not good news!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Believers are not enslaved to sin. All have also affirmed that

Then Paul was not a believer when he said, in the present tense, "I am sold as a slave to sin". Howie has proven the point! He just doesn't realize it yet.

Doug

 

[Ladodgers6]

Appeal to authority fallacy.

I can cite dozens of writers who make a stronger case for Paul speaking as a believer struggling against sin than you have made for Paul speaking as an unregenerate concerned about his sin which I see as oxymoronic.

Don't let these trolls get to you. Their whole purpose is to purposely get a rise out of Calvinists. If you read their posts, you will see it.

 

[fltom]

Don't let these trolls get to you. Their whole purpose is to purposely get a rise out of Calvinists. If you read their posts, you will see it.

Yeah that's it just dismiss those who point out holes in your theology

Call them trolls so you do not have to deal with the scriptures they bring

 

[Ladodgers6]

A faithful Jewish student, indeed a student of the Pharisee’s whose emphatic and deliberate attention to obedience to all 613 laws of the Mosaic law would, and should be conflicted over an inability to keep the law which they have been taught must always be obeyed!

Yes, I believe we have said this many times, but you guys deny it. All people, Jews and Gentile (believers and unbelievers) alike are obliged to keep the whole Law. Either by the stone tablets or the Law written on the conscience. But they must be kept perfectly, without a single blemish of sin!​

I was raised in a very strict, legalistic Christian home. I was taught from birth about right and wrong and what God says we should do and should not do. I always knew when I was doing something wrong, and sometimes I did things wrong that I didn’t want to do because I knew my parents and God would be angry with me, and punishment would be certain! I knew and understood that the rules were good, and I didn’t want to disobey and offend my earthly father and God. But I always ended up doing what I shouldn’t. The older I got, the more conflicted and frustrated I became , and I was not yet a believer. I was just a religious kid raised in church to obey and love God and I couldn’t seem to get it right, and it was killing me with guilt!

So, were you a believer here or not? Because in Romans 1-3, Paul makes it clear that sin is what condemns us through the Law. And our conscience accuses us of it. Nobody has an excuse for their sins. Paul makes this clear in Romans 1. But because they love the darkness and hate the light, they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness & ungodliness.

This is not a very good analogy, Doug. But a very poor one.​

So I know from experience that I knew what was right and didn’t want to be bad, but did, and was frustrated to distraction that I did it again! Then the truth of the gospel broke me, and with Paul, I said that the power of sin could only be broken by God through Jesus Christ! Rom 7:14-from was my life before I found Christ.

Doug

So, if you were not a believer, how was it then that you disliked being disobedient?

Here's my counter argument:

The Apostle Paul is not Saul the Pharisee in Romans 7. Paul delights in God's Law, not the wicked, only godly men delight in God's Law.

Scripture says:

Psalms 1

The Way of the Righteous and the Wicked


1Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2but his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.


4Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
​

Read and listen to what Paul is saying in the following passages below:​

​

Romans 7:22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

So Doug, here you have a waging war of the believer of God. After Paul rises the question, Who will deliver me form this BODY of death? He thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord! And how does Paul end it Doug? I think you need to understand that we are still in these fallen bodies as believers. This is the raging war Doug, we will endure until the end, and we get our glorified bodies.​

 

[fltom]

So, were you a believer here or not? Because in Romans 1-3, Paul makes it clear that sin is what condemns us through the Law. And our conscience accuses us of it. Nobody has an excuse for their sins. Paul makes this clear in Romans 1. But because they love the darkness and hate the light, they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness & ungodliness.​

He stated

But I always ended up doing what I shouldn’t. The older I got, the more conflicted and frustrated I became , and I was not yet a believer. I was just a religious kid raised in church to obey and love God and I couldn’t seem to get it right, and it was killing me with guilt!

 

[ReverendRV]

Rev, I've been on this forum for going on 8-years now, and the topic of Rom 7 has been hashed over several times in varying contexts, and I have always maintained that Paul was not speaking of his actual spiritual condition in 7:14-ff. So I am not sure why you would be surprised by my comments.



There is a lot of ideas in this, and I don't have the umph right now to unpack it all, so I'll make two observations:

1) Paul does not say it was sin "remaining" in him that did it, but that sin dwelling in him did it. οἰκέω, is the word, which means "to inhabit, to indwell, dwell" (Strong) and is used 9 times in the NT, all by Paul, with Rom 7:17 being the first occurrence and again in 7:18, 20, then again in 8:9, and 8:11. All nine times it refers to something living or dwelling within something or someone. There is no evidence for "remaining" being the idea superimposes. Besides, the issue is not about the presence of sin within us, it is a a question of whole in control. Whose will and capacity is reigning. That's why he says "it is no longer I who does it, but the sin dwelling in me that causes me to do what I don't want to do. My will, Paul says, is not in control, but the will of sin, so to speak, to which I am enslaved.

2) Paul is not attempting to pass the buck from himself to sin, as if to say it's not my fault, the devil made me do it! (a Flip Wilson idiom, if you're old enough to remember him) He is expressing the evidence for his earlier assessment of his spiritual condition, " I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin", without recourse or authority to alter my behavior or condition, try and desire as he might. I am dead, unspiritual, and a slave to sin who reigns over me and superimposes it's will and desires over his as it chooses!




No, he was under the power and reign of sin, that lives within him. Sin was not the Old Man yet, it was his master. It becomes the Old Man because its desires and actions represent the the type of lifestyle that marked the behavior of the pre-Christian Paul, but was not at all the image of the new creation Paul. That old version is still dwelling, but its power and authority have been overthrown, and a new master has ascended the throne. Thus, as Paul says is the reality of the Christian condition, our Old Man has been destroyed, done away with, discarded. (Rom 6:6) We have died, and thus have been set free from sin's dominion and authority, and it shall no longer be our master and we are no longer obligated to do as it it demands. (6:5-14, 18, 8:12)


Doug

I totally disagree...

John Gill Commentary

But sin that dwelleth in me;
the old man, the carnal I, the evil present with him, the law in his members; which not only existed in him, and wrought in him, and that at times very strongly, but dwelt in him, had its abode in him, as it has in all regenerate persons, and will have, as long as they are in the body.

Romans 7:17 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Romans 7:17 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

Personally, I wouldn't expect someone like you to say to me it's an Authority Fallacy for me to quote anyone; because you and I believe in the Spritual Gifts of Discernment and Teaching. Why is Saint Paul not speaking in the Present Tense?

 

[David1701]

A faithful Jewish student, indeed a student of the Pharisee’s whose emphatic and deliberate attention to obedience to all 613 laws of the Mosaic law would, and should be conflicted over an inability to keep the law which they have been taught must always be obeyed!

I was raised in a very strict, legalistic Christian home. I was taught from birth about right and wrong and what God says we should do and should not do. I always knew when I was doing something wrong, and sometimes I did things wrong that I didn’t want to do because I knew my parents and God would be angry with me, and punishment would be certain! I knew and understood that the rules were good, and I didn’t want to disobey and offend my earthly father and God. But I always ended up doing what I shouldn’t. The older I got, the more conflicted and frustrated I became , and I was not yet a believer. I was just a religious kid raised in church to obey and love God and I couldn’t seem to get it right, and it was killing me with guilt!

So I know from experience that I knew what was right and didn’t want to be bad, but did, and was frustrated to distraction that I did it again! Then the truth of the gospel broke me, and with Paul, I said that the power of sin could only be broken by God through Jesus Christ! Rom 7:14-from was my life before I found Christ.

Doug

Rom. 7:14 onwards is about a born again Christian, trying to live by law. Verse 14 switches from past tense to present tense. If you ignore that, then you misunderstand the passage from verse 14 onwards.

Romans 8:1 shows the way to be delivered from a life of frustration and defeat, as a born-again Christian.

Rom. 8:1-4 (WEB)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The experiences of a religious, but lost, sinner and a born-again Christian trying to live by law are similar, in some ways. Both try to keep the law, both fail, both are frustrated; however, the born-again Christian has a relationship with the Lord; so, once he realises what the problem is (trying to live by law, instead of being led by the Holy Spirit), the answer is clear. The lost religious person cannot make this switch, since he does not have a new heart, nor a living relationship with the Lord.

 

[fltom]

I totally disagree...

John Gill Commentary

But sin that dwelleth in me;
the old man, the carnal I, the evil present with him, the law in his members; which not only existed in him, and wrought in him, and that at times very strongly, but dwelt in him, had its abode in him, as it has in all regenerate persons, and will have, as long as they are in the body.

Romans 7:17 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Romans 7:17 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

Personally, I wouldn't expect someone like you to say to me it's an Authority Fallacy for me to quote anyone; because you and I believe in the Spritual Gifts of Discernment and Teaching. Why is Saint Paul not speaking in the Present Tense?

So you believe a christian may be enslaved by sin

And Paul after noting that a believer is freed from sin

Romans 6:18 (ESV)
18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:22 (ESV)
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

and states

Romans 8:1-2 (ESV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

in chapter 7 as a believer Paul imagines himself enslaved by sin and is without awareness of the Spirit power to set the
believer free from sin

It does not make sense and causes Paul to present a contradictory message

 

[fltom]

Rom. 7:14 onwards is about a born again Christian, trying to live by law. Verse 14 switches from past tense to present tense. If you ignore that, then you misunderstand the passage from verse 14 onwards.

It us an error to believe that the present tense deals only with the present time

There are a number of presents with deal with timeless reality, and/or past or even future events

H. E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey list 8 kinds of presents; Herbert Weir Smyth of Harvard University lists 9; Ernest Witt Burton lists at least 7


Present
Instantaneous Present
Progressive Present
Extending-From-Past Present
Iterative Present
Customary Present
Gnomic Present
Historical Present
Perfective Present
Conative Present
In Progress, but not Complete
Not Begun, but About/Desired to be Attempted
Futuristic Present
Completely Futuristic
Mostly Futuristic
Present Retained in Indirect Discourse


Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 768.

and

1884. Annalistic Present.—Closely connected with the historical present is the annalistic present, which is used to register historical facts or to note incidents.

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges (New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920), 422.

There is also this saved note (source lost)

Accordingly, Paul uses the annalistic present in Romans 717 (14?) to report the historicity of his experience under Jewish Law, at which time he never knew that the Galilean was the Messiah. So: I am … sold into bondage to sin: This is an annalistic present, depicting life-experience under the Law. Insistence that Paul’s life as a sinner constitutes the highest level of Christianity is patent unbelief in the atonement that offers restoration from the Fall in this life

 

[Carbon]

The experiences of a religious, but lost, sinner and a born-again Christian trying to live by law are similar, in some ways. Both try to keep the law, both fail, both are frustrated; however, the born-again Christian has a relationship with the Lord; so, once he realises what the problem is (trying to live by law, instead of being led by the Holy Spirit), the answer is clear. The lost religious person cannot make this switch, since he does not have a new heart, nor a living relationship with the Lord.

Sounds like the Arminian rollercoaster I’ve been on. ?

 

[Carbon]

A faithful Jewish student, indeed a student of the Pharisee’s whose emphatic and deliberate attention to obedience to all 613 laws of the Mosaic law would, and should be conflicted over an inability to keep the law which they have been taught must always be obeyed!

Sure Paul was taught the law since childhood but it was the theology of the letter. Which does not humble or save. The Jews, Paul included, were satisfied with the outward appearance of righteousness. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.
Their eyes were blind and they were following the law thinking the law saves them.
They could not see the light of life in the Law.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

That’s what you were doing to a degree while growing up. Living under the law, trying to do good. Which is natural growing up in a good home.

I do hope at a time in your life, you were made alive by the Spirit, seeing then just how much the law actually required, and sin became alive. Because before the Spirit removes the vail and shows the law, sin is dead. And you were just living by the letter of the law. Before the Spirit opened your eyes, you were alive to your own righteousness.

 

[fltom]

Sure Paul was taught the law since childhood but it was the theology of the letter. Which does not humble or save. The Jews, Paul included, were satisfied with the outward appearance of righteousness. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.
Their eyes were blind and they were following the law thinking the law saves them.
They could not see the light of life in the Law.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

That’s what you were doing to a degree while growing up. Living under the law, trying to do good. Which is natural growing up in a good home.

I do hope at a time in your life, you were made alive by the Spirit, seeing then just how much the law actually required, and sin became alive. Because before the Spirit removes the vail and shows the law, sin is dead. And you were just living by the letter of the law. Before the Spirit opened your eyes, you were alive to your own righteousness.

You do realize according to his comments his pangs of conscience came while he was yet unregenerate

 

[Ladodgers6]

Then Paul was not a believer when he said, in the present tense, "I am sold as a slave to sin". Howie has proven the point! He just doesn't realize it yet.

Doug

7:14 the Apostle says, I am carnal, sold under sin. That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal (body of death), and he is displeased with himself; indeed, he hates himself and praises the Law of Go, which he recognizes because he regards is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.

So also, the Apostle says: 7:15: "That which I do, I allow not" (I do not approve). The Apostle means to say: As a spiritual man I recognize what is good, and yet I do what I do not desire, namely, that which is evil, not indeed willfully maliciously. But while I choose the good, I do the opposite. The carnal man, however, knows what is evil, and he does it intentionally, willingly, and by choice.

In the same verse the Apostle says: "What I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that I do." (This the Apostle says as a spiritual man), for of the carnal man Scripture says in Psalms 36:​

1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

2For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

3The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.

4He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

In verse 16 the Apostle writes: "I consent unto the Law that it is good." The Law desires what is good, and so does the Apostle.

Hence both agree to the good. But the carnal man is always against the Law; and if it were possible, he would rather have no Law at all. He never desires what is good, but only what is evil. He can perform fake external good works before people to get self-glorification like the Scribes and Pharisees, but the inside is full of dead men bones!​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Sure Paul was taught the law since childhood but it was the theology of the letter. Which does not humble or save. The Jews, Paul included, were satisfied with the outward appearance of righteousness. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.
Their eyes were blind and they were following the law thinking the law saves them.
They could not see the light of life in the Law.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

That’s what you were doing to a degree while growing up. Living under the law, trying to do good. Which is natural growing up in a good home.

I do hope at a time in your life, you were made alive by the Spirit, seeing then just how much the law actually required, and sin became alive. Because before the Spirit removes the vail and shows the law, sin is dead. And you were just living by the letter of the law. Before the Spirit opened your eyes, you were alive to your own righteousness.

Excellent post, brother. People give such a lofty view of carnal man. Thinking that by outward works they can boast and feel proud of them. Spiritual men see, feel, and understand how far short we have fallen from the glory of God.

Psalms 36:
1Transgression speaks to the wicked
deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
4He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.

But a spiritual man hates his sin, and struggles against the flesh everyday always looking to God through Christ for his redemption, justification and sanctification.​

 

[Josheb]

Four Reasons for a Pre-Christian Experience- Schreiner......................................​

Final Word​

If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin.

The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way.

The first problem with the above is that there are not chapter and verse numbers in Paul's original letter. The narrative of "chapter" 7 does not end with verse 7:25. It ends with 8:25, not 7:25. The exegesis in this op was built on a flawed presupposition: the chaptering determine the narrative.

It is also incorrect to say the Spirit is absent from chapter 7. The Spirit is referenced twice.

Third, the tense of the narrative goes back and forth between past, present, and future conditions and one of the most basic rules of sound exegesis is to take the text as written unless there is indication in the text itself to do otherwise. The op presuppositionally assumes there is some debate about the tense of the chapter. The proper reading is quite simple: take what is written in the past-tense as past, what is written in the present-tense and present, and what is written in the future tense as future. If anyone desires to dwell further then the Greek can be examined for perfect imperatives and other conjugations indication a past, present, and ongoing condition.

Romans 7 is NOT pre-Christian.

Paul had several problems as a person after his conversion and during his service as an apostle. Paul is frequently complaining his companions are leaving him and he doesn't handle it well. We have no reason to believe Barnabas or John Mark did anything wrong. Maybe God called them to other missions and He didn't tell Paul. On another occasion Paul indicates his own inconsistency when he writes to the Corinthians boldly about his boldness but reminds them how meek he is in person. Must have been quite aggravating to both parties. More explicitly, though, we have Paul's record of the thorn in his flesh, a messenger of satan sent to torment him. The "thorn in the flesh" is an Old Testament idiom indicating judgment. Search the OT and verify that. We also know from Job, Jesus' own temptation experience, and what he says to Peter about his being sifted, that satan goes where he's commanded and permitted to go. We also know, from the very next chapter in Romans, God works all things for good in Paul's life. By using the idiom of a thorn in his flesh he was indirectly disclosing he was under some form of judgment by God and God told Paul His grace would be sufficient.

Romans 7 is not a pre-Christian experience. It is one example of one man's experience engaging the redemptive process after having become a Christian, a process whereby the end is already decided because NOTHING can separate us from the love of God found in Christ Jesus.

 

[fltom]

The first problem with the above is that there are not chapter and verse numbers in Paul's original letter. The narrative of "chapter" 7 does not end with verse 7:25. It ends with 8:25, not 7:25. The exegesis in this op was built on a flawed presupposition: the chaptering determine the narrative.

It is also incorrect to say the Spirit is absent from chapter 7. The Spirit is referenced twice.

Third, the tense of the narrative goes back and forth between past, present, and future conditions and one of the most basic rules of sound exegesis is to take the text as written unless there is indication in the text itself to do otherwise. The op presuppositionally assumes there is some debate about the tense of the chapter. The proper reading is quite simple: take what is written in the past-tense as past, what is written in the present-tense and present, and what is written in the future tense as future. If anyone desires to dwell further then the Greek can be examined for perfect imperatives and other conjugations indication a past, present, and ongoing condition.

Romans 7 is NOT pre-Christian.

Paul had several problems as a person after his conversion and during his service as an apostle. Paul is frequently complaining his companions are leaving him and he doesn't handle it well. We have no reason to believe Barnabas or John Mark did anything wrong. Maybe God called them to other missions and He didn't tell Paul. On another occasion Paul indicates his own inconsistency when he writes to the Corinthians boldly about his boldness but reminds them how meek he is in person. Must have been quite aggravating to both parties. More explicitly, though, we have Paul's record of the thorn in his flesh, a messenger of satan sent to torment him. The "thorn in the flesh" is an Old Testament idiom indicating judgment. Search the OT and verify that. We also know from Job, Jesus' own temptation experience, and what he says to Peter about his being sifted, that satan goes where he's commanded and permitted to go. We also know, from the very next chapter in Romans, God works all things for good in Paul's life. By using the idiom of a thorn in his flesh he was indirectly disclosing he was under some form of judgment by God and God told Paul His grace would be sufficient.

Romans 7 is not a pre-Christian experience. It is one example of one man's experience engaging the redemptive process after having become a Christian, a process whereby the end is already decided because NOTHING can separate us from the love of God found in Christ Jesus.

The problem here is Paul already noted how the christian is made freed from enslavement to sin

Romans 6:18 (KJV)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:22 (KJV)
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Delivered from the law to serve in newness of spirit

Romans 7:6 (KJV)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

How can he be a slave to sin as we see in Rom 7:14

Romans 7:14 (NET1)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual — but I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin.[21]

Further How is it a post conversion Paul could state

Romans 7:18 (KJV)
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The answer should be obvious through the spirit as Paul states not too many verses later

Romans 8:1-10 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Note sins defeat

Paul adds here, In the flesh, and for this end, — that by seeing sin conquered and abolished in our very nature, our confidence might be more certain: for it thus follows, that our nature is really become a partaker of his victory; and this is what he presently declares. Calvin's Commentaries.

this speaks of the destruction of the power of sin in a christ the very opposite of an idea tat a christians may be left enslaved by sin

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.