Mormons vs Mormonism

[dberrie2020]

Well, if you're not going to explain why you cited James 2, how do you expect anyone to have a discussion with you?

You see, Lurkers, this is what Mormons do. They quote Scripture, but they will never explain to you what they think it MEANS.

Why would James 2 require an explanation? It seems simple to understand, and straightforward, for the main--with no hidden meanings, and it fits the LDS theology well.

IMO--the only time an attempt is needed to interpret it would be if James 2 came into direct contradiction to one's theology.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Richard7]

What does your question have to do with Mormonism?
Stop trying to derail discussion.



Well, if you're not going to explain why you cited James 2, how do you expect anyone to have a discussion with you?

You see, Lurkers, this is what Mormons do. They quote Scripture, but they will never explain to you what they think it MEANS. They simply want readers to assume their own meaning, and if it agrees with Mormonism, then you're right, and if it doesn't agree with Mormonism, then you're wrong.



Well, it's a post that walks through every verse of James 2, and explains what they mean, and how each verse relates to the next.



Well, I read #331, and basically all you did was cite the Christian understanding, claim it was a "minority" view (as if that's relevant to anything), made some ridiculous conclusions (eg. "If salvation can be without works, then we have to see Paul condemning ALL works!"), and then twist the passage to try to force it to agree with your misinterpretation of James 2.

That is NOT how you exegesis.



Worthless rhetoric by Mormons again.

The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God. The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works.

Salvation: By Grace or by Works?

Salvation: By Grace or by Works?

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Aaron32]

Carried over from the thread "Where the LDS church stands alone":

Typical Mormon.
You make a false claim in ignorance, so you search for the writings of others to make arguments for you.

Yes. That's debate. We find evidence that supports our argument.
The conclusion was already drawn. I was search for other teachings of Irenaeus, and I came across the article. I could have just as easily used the substance of his article, but that would essentially be plagiarism. I figure you can read just as easily as I can.

 

[Theo1689]

Carried over from the thread "Where the LDS church stands alone":

Yes. That's debate. We find evidence that supports our argument.
The conclusion was already drawn. I was search for other teachings of Irenaeus, and I came across the article. I could have just as easily used the substance of his article, but that would essentially be plagiarism. I figure you can read just as easily as I can.

First of all, you clearly don't understand what plagiarism is.
You could have shared the main points of his argument in your own words, and not even have to cite him.
You could have quoted a few sentences containing the main points, and give credit to the author.
Or you could go directly to the ECF's, like I did, and make your argument based on what they said.

But this simply proves that Mormosn are incapable and too lazy to do their own work. They simply look for sources which agree with them. Of course a Roman Catholic is going to deny the ECF's taught Sola Scriptura. His religion requires it. But that doesn't change the fact that the ECF's TAUGHT Sola Scriptura.

I provided their quotes, and you ignored them.
You want to pretend they don't exist.

 

[Aaron32]

1) Nothing is "implied" here. That's simply a bogus word Mormons use when they actually mean, "assume".

 

[Aaron32]

Mormons are incapable and too lazy to do their own work. They simply look for sources which agree with them.

Uh...yeah, only Mormons do that...of course....
And we are to believe mormon critics actually read all the old, out of print Mormon manuals in their spare time, too...

 

[Mesenja]

What does your question have to do with Mormonism? Stop trying to derail discussion.

James 2:24 A particular Mormon loves to quote James 2:24 as the "be-all-and-end-all" verse of Scripture, even using it to try to "veto" far clearer passages, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 4:1-6, Romans 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc. When a Mormon interprets a verse in a way that contradicts...

Mesenja said:It doesn't get much clearer than this. (Post #523) And it doesn't veto your so called far clearer passages, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 4:1-6, Romans 11:5-6. The Bible isn't contradictory.
Mesenja said:Am I also correct in saying that God would make the subject of salvation equally clear and understandable throughout the Bible? Yes or no.​

The following explanation doesn’t work. We are saved by faith alone and as evidence that we have a true and living faith we will do the required works. If not then they really didn’t a true faith to begin with. As the body apart from the spirit is dead so faith apart from works is dead James 2:26 The apostle James uses an analogy here. The body is analogous to faith. The spirit is analogous to works. Just as it is necessary for physical life that the body and spirit be alive the same holds true for our spiritual life. We need both faith and works to be spiritually alive. Is faith without works still faith? Yes. A physical body without the spirit is still a body. A dead faith is still faith. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? James 2:20
​

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Well, if you're not going to explain why you cited James 2, how do you expect anyone to have a discussion with you?

James 2:24 A particular Mormon loves to quote James 2:24 as the "be-all-and-end-all" verse of Scripture, even using it to try to "veto" far clearer passages, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 4:1-6, Romans 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.) When a Mormon interprets a verse in a way that contradicts...

You see, Lurkers, this is what Mormons do. They quote Scripture, but they will never explain to you what they think it MEANS. They simply want readers to assume their own meaning, and if it agrees with Mormonism, then you're right, and if it doesn't agree with Mormonism, then you're wrong.

Ephesians 2:8-10 demonstrates how God's grace, can transform us into His likeness and not a scriptural proof-text for Sola Fide. It is to be understood from a patron/client context . God is the patron. We are the client.

Paul is referring to the initial grace of justification and not our ongoing and final promised justification. (#331;#467;#456)

Titus 3:5 is referencing our initial salvation. We Have Been Saved. (1 Corinthians 6:11) We Are Being Saved. (2 Corinthians 2:15) We Shall Be Saved. (Romans 5:9-10)

We are saved by God's grace and not by any good works we have done as,you can never give to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward He has promised to give. (Romans 11:36) . (#456) I could continue but I think your lurkers have got the point.

claim it was a "minority" view (as if that's relevant to anything),

No I claimed that salvation by faith alone is the minority view which it is.

and then twist the passage to try to force it to agree with your misinterpretation of James 2.

James shows that belief without proper behavior and commitment is not enough for salvation. (See James 2)

You told dberrie2020 that salvation is not by works and cited Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-6,Romans 11:5-6. (#35) Is salvation by works supposedly my misinterpretation of James 2 as well?

You also brought up the maxim "correlation does not imply causation.” It isn't an iron clad rule. Correlation and a strong underlying reason for a link suggest causation until proven otherwise is probably the best you can get.

That is NOT how you exegesis.

Post a Comment

 

[Mesenja]

How is a question an "attack"?

Your question was not asked in good faith.​

And you still haven't answered this imaginary "attack".

He has no need to. You need to raise the level of your discourse.​

 

[Mesenja]

I'm not sure why you guys are so offended by my valid question. You teach Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone, "as tangible as a man's". So why can't he get a photo ID?​

noun: ridicule​

1. the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behavior.
   "he is held up as an object of ridicule"​

 

[Richard7]

I'm not sure why you guys are so offended by my valid question.
You teach Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone, "as tangible as a man's".
So why can't he get a photo ID?

Yes we do teach the above, even common sense would tell anyone that God has a body of flesh and bone, like his son does also...
One God you say, what one, the invisible (God the Father ) or the flesh and bone one ( Jesus Christ) hmm

Or does Christ act in the Body only when he is that personage? how confusing christian doctrine is...

Photo ID is you being sacrilegious ..... showing a lack of proper respect for a sacred person (dictionary) .... hmm

 

[brotherofJared]

I'm not sure why you guys are so offended by my valid question.
You teach Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone, "as tangible as a man's".
So why can't he get a photo ID?

For the same reason you all don't have a photo ID of Jesus Christ. Neither of them are physically here.

 

[Mesenja]

The Bible isn't contradictory. And that's precisely why MORMONISM is false. James 2:20 does NOT say, "works are required for salvation". If it did, it would CONTRADICT Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-6, 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

I've addressed the meaning of James 2 here:

- James 2:24

A particular Mormon loves to quote James 2:24 as the "be-all-and-end-all" verse of Scripture, even using it to try to "veto" far clearer passages, such as Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.) When a Mormon interprets a verse in a way that contradicts...

forums.carm.org

And you have NOT addressed the above "not by works" passages. You stand refuted.​

James 2:24
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

 

[Slyzr]

Apperantly, Mormons seem to be the cause of why Mormonism isn't being discussed here.

This thread is a repository for any time the subject diverts off "Mormonism" (the beliefs) and starts talking about "Mormons" (the people).

Hopefully, this will help keep discussion on topic.

Well ...... been there.

Mormon's have their own theology and their own priority.

And it is not others that are not them.

Others that are not are not, are NOT quickly displaced / released.

They seek not, them to matter, they seek them too not.

Perhaps, the not Mormon's can be servants.

For their "grace".

Been there done it ......

No mattering for them ...... as they hand you their chains.

Had enough .....

 

[Janice Bower]

Uh...yeah, only Mormons do that...of course....
And we are to believe mormon critics actually read all the old, out of print Mormon manuals in their spare time, too...

I find old manuals interesting, and, yes, I read them. The Book of Mormon is old. Do you read it?

 

[Magdalena]

Uh...yeah, only Mormons do that...of course....
And we are to believe mormon critics actually read all the old, out of print Mormon manuals in their spare time, too...

Do they contain false doctrine?

 

[Janice Bower]

When I was a Mormon, we NEVER told anyone that we were saved. We were working towards salvation.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23:

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

 

[Janice Bower]

Why would James 2 require an explanation? It seems simple to understand, and straightforward, for the main--with no hidden meanings, and it fits the LDS theology well.

IMO--the only time an attempt is needed to interpret it would be if James 2 came into direct contradiction to one's theology.

Does man save himself by his works or does God save man by grace through faith not of works?

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God deserves the GLORY for what He does with sinful men. We were DEAD IN SINS! God intervened and made us ALIVE in Christ. WHY? That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us through Christ Jesus!

 

[brotherofJared]

When I was a Mormon, we NEVER told anyone that we were saved. We were working towards salvation.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23:

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

Let's just say some of us have more confidence in what we CAN do, than others. My confidence in my standing right now is that if I died, I would be saved in the kingdom of God. Further, just having completed the ordinances and that I haven't sinned against the Holy Ghost, I'm would be confident that at some point in the eternities, I would be able to enter that kingdom.

 

[brotherofJared]

Does man save himself by his works or does God save man by grace

As you quoted yourself.

we know that it is by grace that we are saved,

through faith not of works

Through faith and works.

If faith is causative as you all claim that it is, the works must still be present or the faith isn't present. In nearly every instance where the New Testament talks about the works that are not required, it is referring to the dead works of the law, circumcision specifically. IOW, it is not circumcision that saves, but the works that brought Abraham to that covenant. Abraham believed and God counted his works for righteousness. Paul even goes so far as to demonstrate that some of the works Abraham performed were forbidden by God's own commandments. Abraham was obedient to every word he received from God even when by intuition, Abraham knew it was wrong. Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his works. Faith is never alone.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is one of those works of the law, specifically circumcision. One more verse, that's all that was needed to reveal the difference between good works and the works that no man can boast saved him. 11. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

God deserves the GLORY for what He does with sinful men.

God deserves the glory for what he did for all mankind.

We were DEAD IN SINS!

You may be, but we are not.

God intervened and made us ALIVE in Christ. WHY?

And that would be the question you all never answer. Obviously, God will not intervene for everyone. Let's see what you have to say about it.

That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us through Christ Jesus!

Exactly, still nothing. It's almost as if you all don't really know. The reason why God intervenes is that we follow him. If you don't, you're on your own. Therefore, if one does all one can do, God will intervene. Isn't it great that we have such a clear-cut and plain witness of God's word? There can be no question about those who can be saved. It's almost as if it was written in stone.

 

[Magdalena]

As you quoted yourself.


Through faith and works.

If faith is causative as you all claim that it is, the works must still be present or the faith isn't present. In nearly every instance where the New Testament talks about the works that are not required, it is referring to the dead works of the law, circumcision specifically. IOW, it is not circumcision that saves, but the works that brought Abraham to that covenant. Abraham believed and God counted his works for righteousness. Paul even goes so far as to demonstrate that some of the works Abraham performed were forbidden by God's own commandments. Abraham was obedient to every word he received from God even when by intuition, Abraham knew it was wrong. Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his works. Faith is never alone.

This is one of those works of the law, specifically circumcision. One more verse, that's all that was needed to reveal the difference between good works and the works that no man can boast saved him. 11. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

God deserves the glory for what he did for all mankind.

You may be, but we are not.

And that would be the question you all never answer. Obviously, God will not intervene for everyone. Let's see what you have to say about it.

Exactly, still nothing. It's almost as if you all don't really know. The reason why God intervenes is that we follow him. If you don't, you're on your own. Therefore, if one does all one can do, God will intervene. Isn't it great that we have such a clear-cut and plain witness of God's word? There can be no question about those who can be saved. It's almost as if it was written in stone.

God intervened with Saul, who was not following Him by any means.