Do the Lds agree with the Apostle Paul where he said at Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved?"

[Theo1689]

I could throw a birthday party with the sole intent to receive birthday presents. I can do what's necessary to invite birthday presents, but in reality, I never have the right to feel entitled to them, or demand them. Thus, they can never be earned.

That's a very poor analogy, actually.
If someone truly wants to give you a present, they will give it to you regardless of whether you throw a party or not.

And for those who give you a present because they felt being invited to your party "obligated" them, then it was something earned.

I believe we're generally in agreement. I'm just clarifying my own thoughts here.
If "work" is defined as "effort" than the amount of actual "work" is questionable. When a man knows he is drowning he will naturally seek survival. In fact, it would require more self-control to resist going for a life ring, than to go for it. Now, there may be great physical effort to swim toward a life ring, but mentally and emotionally, due to adrenaline, the physical work is "effort"-less.

A "work" is a work regardless of the perception of amount of effort.
If it's an action you make, then it's a work.

Over and over again, Mormons want to argue that salvation requires works, but we can't actually CALL them "works", because of those "not by works" passages.

That's talking about of both sides of your mouth.

It boggles my mind why people consider baptism optional when Jesus and the apostles clearly taught that it is the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement.

First of all, it boggles MY mind that you so frequently misrepresent what the other side believes (especially when our beliefs are OFF-TOPIC). I haven't said ANYONE claiming that "baptism is optional".

Baptism is a COMMANDMENT. And I would reckon that the vast majority of Christians HAVE been baptized. Why? Because it's a commandment. NOBODY has said it is "optional". What we HAVE said is that our salvation isn't dependent on it, since salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.).

Secondly, I don't know ANYWHERE in the Bible where it is "clearly taught" that water baptism is "the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement".

So please quote Jesus and at least TWO apostles who allegedly taught, baptism is "the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement".

 

[Grace]

As grace points out, the Bible is ONE book. And even if you want to separate it by author, or by epistle, it's still the same word, with the same meaning.

But this presents a perfect example of what Mormons do. They REDEFINE all the Biblical words, so it sounds like they are making the same claims as Chrisitians, but in actual fact they mean something completely different.

You question the meaning of "faith"...
You question the meaning of "evidence"...
You question the meaning of "believe"...
You try to claim everything is "vague", so that you think you're justified adding your LDS meanings to Scripture.



Notice that it says we are save "by" grace, and "through" faith.
We are not saved "by" faith, but through faith.
Faith is not the "cause" of salvation.
Grace is the cause of salvation.
Faith is the means of salvation.
Faith is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc.), and is the means by which God saves us by grace.



As grace asked you, are you an expert in Koine Greek?
So many heretics think that they can redefine or rewrite the Bible to suit their theology.
And that is why they are heretics, because they start with their false theology, and then they twist Scripture to try to match their theology.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for,
the conviction of things not seen. (ESV)

Now the first thing you need to know is that the word "hope" in Greek, has a different meaning than in English. In English, "hope" is uncertain. You "hope" you win the lottery. You "hope" it doesn't rain tomorrow when you plan on going golfing. You "hope" that she says yes to your marriage proposal. You don't know.

In Greek, "hope" is certain. It describes the anticipation of something owed, that you know you will receive, that you haven't taken posession of yet. It would describe the "hope" of receiving the lottery money after you realize all your numbers match.

That's why faith is described as an "assurance", a "conviction", a "proof".



Nope.
Why do you make that ASSUMPTION?



But the context is not "proving" something to someone else.



If that's what Mormonism teaches, then this is proof that Mormonism isn't Christianity.
That other people "believe" is not "evidence".

Our "evidence" is the presence of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of eternal life.
Our "evidence" is our regeneration.
Our "evidence" is the new heart of flesh that God gave us.
Our "evidence" is the faith God gave us.
Our "evidence" is the love of God that He gave us.



And of course, the Bible is NOT disputed, except by cults and heretics who teach contrary to the Bible.



Wrong again...
As I have pointed out to you (and dberrie) MANY times already, and you demonstrate that you don't understand James.

James isn't saying that you have to add works to faith, to "give it strength".
James is saying that if you have someone who CLAIMS to have faith, but he doesn't have the works that faith generates, then his claim to having "faith" in the first place is false.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Just because someone SAYS he has faith, doesn't mean that he actually does.
And James' argument is that if the claimer doesn't have works, it means he didn't have faith in the first place.



Sorry, there is no such thing as "inoperative" faith.
That is simply your excuse to try to assert that salvation requires "faith PLUS WORKS" (to "give it strength"), even though the Bible repeatedly teaches that salvation is not by works:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


Once again, we do not need works "to strengthen faith", to be saved.
We do works because we ALREADY ARE saved.

A tree doesn't need to grow apples to "become" an apple tree.
A tree grows apples BECAUSE it is ALREADY an apple tree.



This seems typical of the lack of charity in Mormonism.



Sorry, but that is not the least bit obvious (or true).
Salvation occurs when GOD chooses to save someone.

And since He doesn't choose everyone to be saved, everyone is not saved:

Rom. 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?



No.
We aren't saved by "keeping his commandment" (yet another blatant attempt to smuggle works into salvation), the keeping of the commandments is EVIDENCE that we are ALREADY saved.

The wording of "following Christ" is misleading, as it describes things from our perspective, but it also falsely suggests that we are the ones doing something.

The more correct way to describe it is "Christ leading us", and Scripture gives the picture of the Shepherd leading the sheep. We who have been regenerated and saved know His voice, and can follow Him pretty well. But even we lose our way sometimes, and as the Good Shepherd, Christ goes after us, and brings us back into the fold, because He will NEVER lose any one of His sheep.

Really well said. Thank you!

 

[jamesh]

If something can only be received on the basis that it is given, it can never be "earned". A blessing can be "qualified" for, but the term "earning" implies entitlement after the criteria is met.
We are not entitled for God to extend blessings, even though we've done "all we can do" on our end to qualify for those blessings. God may withhold certain blessings because there's something more he wants us to learn, or another reason outside our awareness according to His wisdom.
The first and great commandment is to love God, and have nothing before Him. I can go through the motions, but never actually love God, and subconsciously be worshipping "self-preservation". I think that's why it's important to remember that even though blessing are predicated upon laws, ultimately, blessings are bestowed because of the mercy of an all-powerful God.
I could throw a birthday party with the sole intent to receive birthday presents. I can do what's necessary to invite birthday presents, but in reality, I never have the right to feel entitled to them, or demand them. Thus, they can never be earned. I can only expect them and have hope in that expectation based on how well I know my friend. Moreover, I would be a pretty screwed up and immoral to throw a birthday party for the sole intent of receiving presents. I would never have a true friendship if I coerced or manipulated my friend to give me a birthday present. Such is the essence of the gospel. "Salvation" is a by-product of knowing and loving God.

I believe we're generally in agreement. I'm just clarifying my own thoughts here.
If "work" is defined as "effort" than the amount of actual "work" is questionable. When a man knows he is drowning he will naturally seek survival. In fact, it would require more self-control to resist going for a life ring, than to go for it. Now, there may be great physical effort to swim toward a life ring, but mentally and emotionally, due to adrenaline, the physical work is "effort"-less. Some people die in certain life threatening situations because of panic - physical effort to survive steered in the wrong direction. I believe this is the general idea behind "irresistible grace".

If that be true, God's mercy is bestowing the awareness of our "awful situation". The thing that blocks that awareness is our pride. The reason people didn't look at the serpent on the cross is that they didn't fully acknowledge the gravity of the situation, or somehow rationalized that death is a better result than the cost of humility and submission.


We're definitely on the same page here. If we truly believe something, we act on that belief.
Baptism is the gateway to the path. The real faith is expressed in enduring to the end, seeking and following the Holy Ghost, making our bodies a living sacrifice daily as a disciple of Christ.This means we can't just show up to the wedding, we need to know how and why we're there in the first place, and when we understand the appropriate behavior follows. (Matt 22:1-14; Luke 14:16-24)

It boggles my mind why people consider baptism optional when Jesus and the apostles clearly taught that it is the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

No, baptism is not the gateway to the path of salvation. The Bible clearly stated at Acts 10:45 Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit "BEFORE" he was water baptized. He then got baptized afterwards demonstrating his obedience in believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Let me ask you this question? Let's say I'm talking to my father on his death bed. I explain to him the gospel message and he responds that he does indeed believe Jesus Christ died for his sins and he says he is sorry for the way he lived his life/showed repentance. He ends up dying the next day, is he saved/a child of God, yes or no? Also, does his salvation still count even though I am not ordained to the Priesthood like you guys teach? Keep in mind I explained to him he must believe/trust in what Jesus Christ did on that cross for all of mankind. Again, is he saved or not since God knows the heart of a man.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Aaron32]

No, baptism is not the gateway to the path of salvation. The Bible clearly stated at Acts 10:45 Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit "BEFORE" he was water baptized. He then got baptized afterwards demonstrating his obedience in believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

To clarify, it's not the act of baptism itself that qualifies us for the Holy Ghost, it's rather the condition of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and a willingness to repent. Most people I taught on my mission clearly received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized, and in some ways baptism is somewhat of a formality.
The Lamanites received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and knew it not. Joseph Smith saw his brother Alvin in heaven, who never received baptism.
Having said that, there's no reason a person would ignore baptism or unnecessarily delay it. I would seriously question the conversion of anyone who did.
When Abraham was commanded to be circumcised and everyone in his household, did he say "Well...maybe...when I get around to it."? No. If God is first in our lives, we do what we are asked without hesitation.

Let me ask you this question? Let's say I'm talking to my father on his death bed. I explain to him the gospel message and he responds that he does indeed believe Jesus Christ died for his sins and he says he is sorry for the way he lived his life/showed repentance. He ends up dying the next day, is he saved/a child of God, yes or no?

Assuming that he sincerely repentant, and he truly had pure motives then I suppose technically possible to be "saved".
Ultimately, that's a question between him and God. Was his repentance sincere? Did he feel his guilt swept away? Did he feel that change of heart where he had no desire to do evil but to do good continually?

Also, does his salvation still count even though I am not ordained to the Priesthood like you guys teach?

Can you recognize how legalistic you're sounding right now? "Salvation" is not merely a checklist of things to follow, or going through the motions. Let's temporarily just assume Jesus actually established priesthood authority and a Church on the earth. Do you think it would be important to accept it? If God gave him a way of knowing the truthfulness of that authority for himself, rather than simply taking somebody's word for it - would he want to know or would he continue to do things his own way? If he's still holding back, then maybe he still has some repenting to do.

We are judged according the knowledge that we have, and the dictates of our conscience. If a person has humbly and sincerely sought for the truth, and seek to glorify God, then I can't think of any reason why a person would not consider themselves "saved". Having said that, if that is the condition of their hearts, I don't know why anyone would reject the Church of Jesus Christ. In the words of Alma:

"8 .... [A]s ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?" (Mosiah 18-8-10)

"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good." (2 Nephi 33:10)

In any case, if he's truly repentant, the necessary ordinances are going to be done for him, whether in this life or the next that he will have an opportunity to accept or reject. But premeditating a "deathbed repentance" kinda subverts the sincerity of it all. There's nothing about dying that's going to change our attitude. If our hearts are prideful in this life, it's likely we will be prideful in the next.

Keep in mind I explained to him he must believe/trust in what Jesus Christ did on that cross for all of mankind. Again, is he saved or not since God knows the heart of a man.

Yeah, that doesn't introduce any new conflicts in the scenario. It's because we believe/trust in what Jesus Christ did on that cross that we do what we do. I agree, God knows the heart. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I say, I leave it up to Him and individuals to examine themselves. There's not really any mystery about it. We either love God and are willing to do what he asks of us, or we don't.

 

[Theo1689]

To clarify, it's not the act of baptism itself that qualifies us for the Holy Ghost, it's rather the condition of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and a willingness to repent.

Nothing "qualifies" us for the Holy Ghost, other than:
1) being a sinner;
2) God electing and regenerating us.

You're a full-on Pelagian. You ignore all the passages which teach:
- we are dead in our trespasses and sins;
- we are slaves to sin;
- we need to be regenerated, and given a new heart;
- faith is a gift of God;
- repentance is a gift of God.

The Lamanites received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and knew it not.

The "Lamanites" didn't exist.

Having said that, there's no reason a person would ignore baptism or unnecessarily delay it. I would seriously question the conversion of anyone who did.

Why do you keep beating down this worthless straw-man?

Can you recognize how legalistic you're sounding right now?

You're claiming that baptism is necessary, but *he's* being "legalistic"?
You can't be serious...

Let's temporarily just assume Jesus actually established priesthood authority and a Church on the earth.

No need to assume.
He did, and Mormons reject it in favour of their own false priesthood, and your own false church.

Do you think it would be important to accept it?

No, it's not a matter of "accepting" it.
Over and over again, you assume MAN has to "do" things.
If one has been regenerated, then they are PART of Christ's true church.

If God gave him a way of knowing the truthfulness of that authority for himself, rather than simply taking somebody's word for it

He has.
It's called the Law written on our hearts,
and the bestowing of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

(Mosiah 18-8-10)
(2 Nephi 33:10)

You shouldn't waste your time reading bad fiction (Twain rightly called it, "chloroform in print").

I'm sorry..... I meant to say...

And it came to pass that you shouldn't waste your time.
And it came to pass that it's really bad fiction.
And it came to pass that a man named Mark Twain was born.
And it came to pass that Twain called the BoM "chloroform in print".

Better to spend your time studying the Bible.

In any case, if he's truly repentant, the necessary ordinances are going to be done for him,

There are no "necessary ordinances".
Everything in salvation is a work of God, from start to finish.
But it seems that Mormons don't want to do anything unless they think it a "necessary ordinance".

whether in this life or the next that he will have an opportunity to accept or reject. But premeditating a "deathbed repentance" kinda subverts the sincerity of it all.

Really?
So if someone is at the end of their life, then YOU are claiming they can't be saved, that they can't be sincere?

We either love God and are willing to do what he asks of us, or we don't.

And we love, because He first loved us.

 

[Aaron32]

That's a very poor analogy, actually.

Criticism...how surprising...

If someone truly wants to give you a present, they will give it to you regardless of whether you throw a party or not.

And I still have the opportunity to acknowledge the present and receive it.

And for those who give you a present because they felt being invited to your party "obligated" them, then it was something earned.

I don't think God feels obligated to do anything, so that point is irrelevant.

A "work" is a work regardless of the perception of amount of effort.
If it's an action you make, then it's a work.

Which means even a confession of faith is a work. Thus, anyone who accepts Christ "earned" their salvation.

Over and over again, Mormons want to argue that salvation requires works, but we can't actually CALL them "works", because of those "not by works" passages.

So please DO tell us where a person receives salvation without any works at all. Not hearing God's word, not praying in faith. Not confessing or forsaking sins. Apparently, based on what you're telling me here, salvation comes without our participation whatsoever.

That's talking about of both sides of your mouth.

Not much for me to respond to when there only arguments from absence.

First of all, it boggles MY mind that you so frequently misrepresent what the other side believes (especially when our beliefs are OFF-TOPIC). I haven't said ANYONE claiming that "baptism is optional".

I don't know what your saying. No one is claiming "baptism is optional" yet "any action is a work" that somehow make it a works-based salvation. Who knows? Whatever.

Baptism is a COMMANDMENT. And I would reckon that the vast majority of Christians HAVE been baptized. Why? Because it's a commandment. NOBODY has said it is "optional". What we HAVE said is that our salvation isn't dependent on it, since salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.).

Let's examine this. Baptism is a COMMANDMENT. No one said it is "optional" but no has said it isn't optional. But if our salvation isn't based on it, then clearly its a commandment I can ignore without any consequences. Wouldn't that then make baptism....optional???

2 Ne 31:
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

Can we deliberately ignore commandments and still expect salvation? Why would we?
By considering the commandments "required" does that automatically make our salvation works-based? Or could it simply be "faith-required"?

Secondly, I don't know ANYWHERE in the Bible where it is "clearly taught" that water baptism is "the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement".

So please quote Jesus and at least TWO apostles who allegedly taught, baptism is "the designated way of showing acceptance of Christ's atonement".

1Matt 28: 9 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

 

[dberrie2020]

We are saved by faith....

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--one is saved by God's grace.

and it is because of our faith that we do good works.

That's good--because faith without works is dead faith:

James 2:26---King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You aren't claiming one is saved through dead faith?

As the Scriptures tell us, the follower of Christ will have their works tested and even if all their good works are burned up, that follower of Christ is still saved (1 Cor 3:10-15).

They may be saved unto something, because of the Resurrection, but as Paul testified--not unto the Kingdom of God:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

How do you explain that?

 

[Aaron32]

Nothing "qualifies" us for the Holy Ghost, other than:
1) being a sinner;
2) God electing and regenerating us.

This is the Mormonism board. I thought your beliefs were off-topic.

You're a full-on Pelagian. You ignore all the passages which teach:
- we are dead in our trespasses and sins;
- we are slaves to sin;
- we need to be regenerated, and given a new heart;
- faith is a gift of God;
- repentance is a gift of God.

I'm not even addressing the source of where a broken heart and a contrite spirit come from. That's aside from the points being discussed.

The "Lamanites" didn't exist.

This is the Mormonism board. I'm using Mormon sources to support Mormon teachings.

Why do you keep beating down this worthless straw-man?

I think I'd need to actually state another person's position to actually have a strawman.
I'm just stating my beliefs.

You're claiming that baptism is necessary, but *he's* being "legalistic"?

Yes.

No need to assume.
He did, and Mormons reject it in favour of their own false priesthood, and your own false church.

What measure ye mete...

No, it's not a matter of "accepting" it.
Over and over again, you assume MAN has to "do" things.
If one has been regenerated, then they are PART of Christ's true church.

This is the Mormonism forum. Why do you keep interjecting your beliefs that you will then avoid defending because your beliefs are off topic?

He has.
It's called the Law written on our hearts,
and the bestowing of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Good. I'm glad we agree.

You shouldn't waste your time reading bad fiction (Twain rightly called it, "chloroform in print").

I'm sorry..... I meant to say...

And it came to pass that you shouldn't waste your time.
And it came to pass that it's really bad fiction.
And it came to pass that a man named Mark Twain was born.
And it came to pass that Twain called the BoM "chloroform in print".

@Janice Bower - See? This is the type of comments we get when we use ACTUAL mormon sources to defend Mormonism.

There are no "necessary ordinances".
Everything in salvation is a work of God, from start to finish.
But it seems that Mormons don't want to do anything unless they think it a "necessary ordinance".

This board isn't Theo1689-ism board.

Really?
So if someone is at the end of their life, then YOU are claiming they can't be saved, that they can't be sincere?

Did you not read anything I said?

And we love, because He first loved us.

Yep.

 

[Theo1689]

Criticism...how surprising...

If you can't deal with people disagreeing with you, then maybe discussion forums aren't the best place for you to hang out.

Which means even a confession of faith is a work. Thus, anyone who accepts Christ "earned" their salvation.

One is not saved by "confessing".
One must first HAVE faith, before they can confess it.
And faith is a gift of God.

So this is yet another example of good works being a PRODUCT of salvation, not a "requirement" for it.

So please DO tell us where a person receives salvation without any works at all.

When God regenerates them, of course.

Not hearing God's word, not praying in faith. Not confessing or forsaking sins. Apparently, based on what you're telling me here, salvation comes without our participation whatsoever.

Our "participation" comes in being RECIPIENTS of salvation.

I don't know what your saying.

I don't think you even WANT to know what I'm saying.

No one is claiming "baptism is optional"

EXACTLY!
So why do you keep beating down this straw-man, when as you admit NOBODY is holding that position?

yet "any action is a work" that somehow make it a works-based salvation. Who knows? Whatever.

That is correct.
Christians don't get baptized "to be" saved.
Christans get baptized because they ALREADY ARE saved!
They are proclaiming the great work of salvation that God has done to them.

Let's examine this. Baptism is a COMMANDMENT. No one said it is "optional" but no has said it isn't optional. But if our salvation isn't based on it, then clearly its a commandment I can ignore without any consequences. Wouldn't that then make baptism....optional???

Why is it always your desire to "ignore [commandments] without any consequences"?
True Christians don't have that mindset.

Just because baptism doesn't contribute to our salvation, DOES NOT MEAN that we can or should "ignore" it.
Just because our salvation is not dependent on our salvation DOES NOT MEAN that we can or should "ignore" it.

It seems that only Mormons have that mindset.

2 Ne 31:

Yeah, I'm not interested in bad fiction.

Sorry, I meant to say....

And it came to pass that I'm not interested in bad fiction.

Can we deliberately ignore commandments and still expect salvation? Why would we?

Why are you obsessed with "deliberatedly ignoring commandments"?
Why do you hate God that much?

Those show are saved LOVE God, and they have no interest in ignoring His commandments.

By considering the commandments "required" does that automatically make our salvation works-based? Or could it simply be "faith-required"?

If you think your salvation is dependent on "obeying" them, then yes, that makes it "works-based".

1Matt 28: 9 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Are you simply quoting random passages now?
None of those passages says that salvation "requires" baptism.

 

[dberrie2020]

The reason it's not "earned" (at least in the non-Mormon faith) is because faith is itself a gift of God.

There might be something we need to consider about the gifts of God:

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The interesting thing here is--they were all His servants to begin with. Those who did well--were termed "faithful". And they were divided according to what they did--either unto the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

That fits the LDS theology well. The critics--not so much.

 

[Theo1689]

This is the Mormonism board. I thought your beliefs were off-topic.

This is the Mormonism board. I thought that the Bible was part of the Mormon canon.

I'm not even addressing the source of where a broken heart and a contrite spirit come from. That's aside from the points being discussed.

Well, you NEED to address it.
It's crucial.

I think I'd need to actually state another person's position to actually have a strawman.
I'm just stating my beliefs.

Okay, so your beliefs are that any commandments God gives that aren't required for salvation, we can ignore?

This is the Mormonism forum.

This must be a new discovery for you, since you seem to keep repeating it.

Why do you keep interjecting your beliefs that you will then avoid defending because your beliefs are off topic?

I'm not interjecting my beliefs.
I'm interjecting the teachings of the Bible, which is part of the Mormon canon.

Good. I'm glad we agree.

But we DON'T "agree".
You said we will be measured by the amount of knowledge we have, implyiing that people have different amounts of knowledge.

This board isn't Theo1689-ism board.

Then stop trying to bring up my beliefs.

Did you not read anything I said?

Personal attack noted.

 

[dberrie2020]

That is correct.
Christians don't get baptized "to be" saved.
Christans get baptized because they ALREADY ARE saved!

That's an interesting claim to compare to the Biblical testimony:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church.

 

[Theo1689]

That's an interesting claim to compare to the Biblical testimony:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church.

And this is what is taught in the CHRISTIAN church as well.
Notice that it does NOT say, "He that is baptized not shall be damned."
In fact, the key combination, "believe but not baptized", is not even ADDRESSED in this passage, which is very bizarre if Jesus' point was that baptism was "required for salvation".

We have to remember that salvation is "not by works":

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


This fits Christian theology well. Mormonism, not so much.

 

[dberrie2020]

Nothing "qualifies" us for the Holy Ghost, other than:
1) being a sinner;
2) God electing and regenerating us.

There is Theo's theology. Here is the LDS theology:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Shouldn't those who believe the Biblical witness at least add "obey him"? The LDS do.

 

[Theo1689]

There is Theo's theology. Here is the LDS theology:

This forum is not for discussing "Theo's theology".
You just got back from a suspension, right?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Shouldn't those who believe the Biblical witness at least add "obey him"? The LDS do.

No, the LDS don't.

But you continue to conflate "correlation" with "causation".

True Christians (which excludes Mormons) obey Him BECAUSE we are already saved.

Salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom 4:1-6, 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

You've DODGED these passages a million times already.

And the reason is because it fits Christianity well. Mormonism, not so much.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said: That's an interesting claim to compare to the Biblical testimony:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church.

And this is what is taught in the CHRISTIAN church as well.

I agree. But I was comparing Mark16:16 to your claim:

Theo1689 said:
That is correct.
Christians don't get baptized "to be" saved.
Christans get baptized because they ALREADY ARE saved!

Notice that it does NOT say, "He that is baptized not shall be damned."

Then don't worry about that.

What is does say is this:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In fact, the key combination, "believe but not baptized", is not even ADDRESSED in this passage,

Again--then why mention it? Focus on what is testified to:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[dberrie2020]

This forum is not for discussing "Theo's theology".

The Biblical quote is not your theology--it's LDS theology:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It was posted in response to your claim here:

Theo1689 said:
That is correct.
Christians don't get baptized "to be" saved.
Christans get baptized because they ALREADY ARE saved!

 

[Theo1689]

The Biblical quote is not your theology--it's LDS theology:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Actually, it's Christian theology.
Mormons stole the Christian canon.

It was posted in response to your claim here:

And confirms it, so thank you for that!

In the meantime, you CONTINUE to ignore Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 11:5-6, etc. etc.

Because they support Christian theology. Mormon theology, not so much.

 

[dberrie2020]

This is what Paul stated to the Philippian Jailer and Paul further stated "you and your household."

At verse 32 Paul spoke the word of the Lord to him "together" with all who were in his house. Vs33, "And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

Verse 34, "And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household." Now, this incident happened within an hour, so how does Mormon teaching reconcile this with the many "saving ordinances" .....

One note here, jamish:

The progression of those verses are as such:

1) What must I do to be saved?
2) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
3) Was Baptized
4) Afterward, they were "believing in God".

Acts 16:30-34---King James Version
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Paul's answer let him know he must "believe" rather than "do." in order to be saved.

Where does one find that distinction in Acts16? It was not until they were baptized they were declared as "believing in God".

At John 6:28-29 the people ask Jesus, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus replied, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him who He hath sent."

So--were these the ones who believed on Him?

John 14:21-23---King James Version
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[dberrie2020]

Actually, it's Christian theology.
Mormons stole the Christian canon.

Then I suppose you will have to look to the LDS church to find it.