Open Heart
Well-known member
I grew up Christian in a very scholarly Christian family, and I never heard such nonsense.That's their justification, or his, for why they see the need for a virgin birth. As if Mary was incapable of sinning.
I grew up Christian in a very scholarly Christian family, and I never heard such nonsense.That's their justification, or his, for why they see the need for a virgin birth. As if Mary was incapable of sinning.
The issue here is not God adding laws it is man adding to God laws...Do you want me to show where God added to the laws after Sinai? If He did, he gave the authority to the judges to do as well.
These things are set out in the law.No. It's called application of the law to a new instance. Such as the laws of inheritance were applied to new cases where there were no male inheritors.
that is absurd, descendant is not by say so it is by blood. An adopted child can inherit property but they cannot inherit blood"An adopted child is a descendant of the adopting parent for purposes of inheritance from the adopting parent and from the lineal and collateral kindred of the adopting parent and for the purpose of determining the property rights of any person under any instrument,"
We are discussing lineage/bloodline sir not land and wealth...You did not quote the TorahSee above. And Jewish law says so.
God makes people JewishThen Jesus isn't an israelite. God is not Jewish.
God makes people Jewish...How did the Jews come into existence?How's it different than God making Jesus Jewish? You have no proof of Israelite seed for Jesus.
Then you are saying that these passages are lies...Clearly Israel was carried away and replaced by men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim.I understands it shows the samaritans were a mixed-blooded group from the Northern tribes. So was the woman from John 4.
The Historical records of the Kings show that they were replaced...Yep, and the link I gave you shows they were in Samaria after your verses. That's why I highlighted them for you.
I did not say the blood is holy..but it does make one holy...And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.God is Holy. Yes. The blood makes atonement, Yes. Show where the blood is holy.
Who said that it had to be as per the commandment? The Jews failed miserably at keeping the commandments. God did his own thing... God made a new covenant...Yep, show where Jesus' blood went on the altar as per the commandment.
We've not added anything. Just as God applied the laws of inheritance to females in the case of Tzelophehad, Judges apply God's laws to new circumstances, make judgements, and these basically become new laws born from the application of the previous. It's not a hard concept to grasp.The issue here is not God adding laws it is man adding to God laws...
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
It wasn't part of Sinai. And all future laws were based on the application of the 10 sayings, commandments, to future applications. And the Judges with the authority from God do the same.These things are set out in the law.
I never said converts or adoptees inherit blood. It's an adoption into a national people, the nation of Israel, with legal documentation to prove it. Similar to legal proceedings in all countries for adoption, with all legal rights to the adoptees with new names, etc.that is absurd, descendant is not by say so it is by blood. An adopted child can inherit property but they cannot inherit blood
That's where your mistaken. You're stuck on bloodline, I'm not. And BTW, Jesus has zero bloodline following your argument. He's an non-Israelite. Why don't you just admit you know nothing about biology and how infected Jesus is from Adam, by way of Mary's X, which she got partly from her daddy?We are discussing lineage/bloodline sir not land and wealth...You did not quote the Torah
Biologically from Jews. Through conversion/adoption otherwise. We know Jesus is not a biological Israelite, and God has no Israelite genes, so you're out of luck, newbirth. Again your argument and makes everyone Jewish.God makes people Jewish
He started with Adam. The Jews came later via normal human relations between a male and female. Now tell me where Jesus got his physical Israelite genes from? I want some scripture, newbirth.God makes people Jewish...How did the Jews come into existence?
No, I'm sayin you skipped the ones I gave you from the link.Then you are saying that these passages are lies...Clearly Israel was carried away and replaced by men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim.
2 Kings 17:6
In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
and replaced by..
2 Kings 17:24
And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.
Go read the additional verses from the link that I highlighted for you. The Samaritans are of mixed-blood from the 10 Northern tribes. It's all there in the Jewish Encyclopedia that any honest person would acknowledge.The Historical records of the Kings show that they were replaced...
Then you admit you messed up. Okay. What does hallowed/holy mean, newbirth? Why is a Priest holy to his God? The commandments make one holy, separated to his God.I did not say the blood is holy..but it does make one holy...And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
Oh, so now you're saying Jesus didn't keep the commandment as written though you throw around Lev 17:11 like its so important? So Jesus' blood is worthless and not in keeping with the requirements for sacrifices at the chosen place.Who said that it had to be as per the commandment? The Jews failed miserably at keeping the commandments. God did his own thing... God made a new covenant...
Yep, with the house of Israel and Judah, not the Church. Same laws written on the hearts and minds.31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And has this happened yet? Obviously not. The law is not yet written on anyone's hearts -- we need to be taught right from wrong.31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And has this happened yet? Obviously not. Atheists still exist.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No it's not hard. But its impossible if you start with a conclusion first that says nothing but the written Torah matters, because then you have to discard all of the really great reasoning anyone gives you to the contrary, including anyone pointing out that it is impossible to observe the written Torah without interpretation.We've not added anything. Just as God applied the laws of inheritance to females in the case of Tzelophehad, Judges apply God's laws to new circumstances, make judgements, and these basically become new laws born from the application of the previous. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Why are you discussing that you know nothing about?
strangers and heathens convert to the Jewish religionOr converts
People don't need a word for religion, people practice a religion. When one converts to a certain belief they do what those had been believers before them do. But they cannot change their parents to become blood relatives.In the day of Ruth, there was no word for religion.
But you know what religious practice is. There is mention of people following gods.You will find no mention of religion in the Torah.
Israel is the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob. Therefore one cannot convert to being an Israelite.Israel was simply a People, a Nation, which had covenantal obligations.
That is your misunderstanding....you cannot become a descendant of Israel by a piece of paper and wishful thinking.Basically you became naturalized as an Israelite, and by doing so, you simultaneously took on the covenantal obligations.
Therefore Ruth did not become a descendant of Israel.When Ruth said, "Let your people be my people," that was her expression of her desire to naturalize.
Yes, it has.And has this happened yet?
You mean to say that you don't know right from wrong?Obviously not.
That is because you are still under the old covenant..The law is not yet written on anyone's hearts -- we need to be taught right from wrong.
There will always be fools...The passage is referring to those who commit to the new covenant.And has this happened yet? Obviously not. Atheists still exist.
Only to the blindSo this "new covenant" that is spoken of here hasn't yet come into existence.
Which you are unable to keep. therefore under a curse...That means that the original covenant between Israel and Hashem is still in place.
Show me one instance where a person was adopted and their lineage/ ancestry changed.The fact that you don't like it and don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've documented my point using two different tribes.
That does not make what you said true...I stand by what I said.
Oh, I'm absolutely positive what the teaching is. I just don't have the fluency with the Talmud to know where exactly it is found. It would be like someone knowing "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the ten commandments, but not knowing where in the Bible to find that.Why are you discussing that you know nothing about?
Now, exactly who is it that is talking about something they know nothing about????????strangers and heathens convert to the Jewish religion
I was taught. You were taught. Everyone has to be taught. It becomes habitual and second nature. But in the beginning, we are taught as children. It is not written on our hearts.Yes, it has.
You mean to say that you don't know right from wrong?
The problem is, the passage explicitly states that everyone will know God. Everyone. That means there will be NO atheists. So obviously the new covenant is not here yet.There will always be fools...The passage is referring to those who commit to the new covenant.
Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
I am a convert. That means I have been adopted. Part of my conversion is that Abraham is my father and Sarah is my mother. My new hebrew name reflects that: Chana Rut bat Sara -- Hannah Ruth daughter of Sarah. All converts are bat Sarah or ben Avraham.Show me one instance where a person was adopted and their lineage/ ancestry changed.
It means that what you are saying doesn't refute what I am saying.That does not make what you said true...
You obey the Law by doing what the law says..You can use the example of King Saul....Sorry, but HOW you obey a Law is NOT the same as adding a law. I'm not sure why you can't understand this.
The same way as all sacrifice is prepared as commanded in the Torah. You are talking foolishness and calling God a liar... God said he commanded, you are saying he didn't.Deuteronomy 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to put His name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat within thy gates, after all the desire of thy soul.
How did God command us? It is not in the Torah. It is in the Oral Torah.
Converted from what to what? and adopted by whom?I am a convert. That means I have been adopted.
Abraham and Sarah were not Jews. They are dead according to the flesh.Part of my conversion is that Abraham is my father and Sarah is my mother.
A name does not change your lineage, you just converted from one belief to another...My new hebrew name reflects that: Chana Rut bat Sara -- Hannah Ruth daughter of Sarah. All converts are bat Sarah or ben Avraham.
what is your point here? The scripture is clear there is a distinction between mouth converts and practicing converts...I was referring to practicing converts. They must follow the same law as Israelites.The term Ger Toshav is used a handful of times in the Torah, and seems to mean slightly different things depending on context. It is usually translated resident alien, but what exactly does that mean? The problem is with the word Ger, because the word Ger also means convert.
In Exodus 12, the context of who may eat of the Passover sacrifice. Verse 43 is quite clear that no foreigner may eat it. Verse 45 states that no Ger Toshav may eat of it--here the context is plainly that no Gentile who is a temporary resident may eat of it. But then it goes on to say in verse 48, “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it." IOW if the Gentile CONVERTS, taking upon themselves and their family the covenant, THEN they can eat of it. This is then followed up by verse 49 that there shall be one law for the native born and the Ger Toshav. Here in verse 49 it is more than obvious that Ger Toshav is referring to those in verse 48, those who converted and became Jews, and not to the ones in verse 45, who definitely are prohibited from eating the sacrifice.
The Torah tells you exactly what it means. If you can't see it there is no need to pretend... No work means no work.Why don't you tell me what this means. Pretend I'm stupid.
The command is thou shalt not commit murder...there is a differenceOh, I'm absolutely positive what the teaching is. I just don't have the fluency with the Talmud to know where exactly it is found. It would be like someone knowing "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the ten commandments, but not knowing where in the Bible to find that.
you are, strangers and heathens convert to the Jewish religionNow, exactly who is it that is talking about something they know nothing about????????
An Israelite is a descendant of Jacob's twelve sons. One does not become a descendant of Israel willy nilly.No one has an obligation to the 613 commandments except the People of Israel. You don't take them up unless you become an Israelite yourself.
Wait...are you telling Jews who can and can't be Jewish? That's rich.Israel is the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob. Therefore one cannot convert to being an Israelite.
You are not making sense...Taught by whom? Where did it originate? You seem to be saying that people who never heard about jews or jesus don't know right from wrong.I was taught. You were taught. Everyone has to be taught. It becomes habitual and second nature. But in the beginning, we are taught as children. It is not written on our hearts.
And everyone does...you think that it means that everyone will obey God.The problem is, the passage explicitly states that everyone will know God.
There will always be foolsEveryone. That means there will be NO atheists.
Your misunderstanding does not mean it is not here. Anyway you seem to be saying that you don't know GodSo obviously the new covenant is not here yet.
I am telling pseudo-Jews who the Israelites are.Wait...are you telling Jews who can and can't be Jewish? That's rich.