Once Saved--Always Saved?

Correction is not rejection.
Fine. Please correct me by explaining in your own words this salvation process of yours. I understand that it involves a period of time to get from lost to fully saved. Is that correct? During this process, a person still sins. Does the incidence of sin decrease during this time? Does the saved person ever achieve a sinless life, or is at least some sin inevitable for that person? Can any sin during this process disqualify the person from salvation, or are all those sins automatically forgiven? Why can't a person give up all sin immediately?

I'd really like straight answers to these questions. I'm especially interested in your own salvation experience. What sins do you still commit and why do you commit them? Some possibilities include addictions to porn, drugs, alcohol, or gambling as well as sins resulting from mental illness. Do you believe you will eventually repent of all those sins? If Christ were to end your life today, would you get to heaven even though you sin?
 
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Fine. Please correct me by explaining in your own words this salvation process of yours.
Please do not try to change the topic away from your own op to my supposed personal views. Especially in neglect of, or avoidance of first addressing the problem(s) already cited. If we can reach a scriptural consensus on the correct way of understanding then my views versus your views are immaterial.

You were asked how you reconcile three specific statements in your own posts. Explain in your own words how you do that.


If it brings you any comfort, I hold monergist views of salvation. I'm not your enemy. NOTHING I have posted should ever be construed to say such a thing and it will always be wrong of you to think otherwise. Don't say "fine," if you do not mean it. God and God alone saves and our conversion from death to life, and/or our regeneration by the Holy Spirit, our being born anew from above is God's doing and His doing alone, and not in any way causally dependent upon anything of the sinner's volition. It is only after conversion that human agency is relevant to salvation but that has very littel to do with OSAS.

Now try doing what I just did: answer the question asked!


How do you reconcile the three statements I quoted?
 
Appreciate the pov, but if there was an intended (but unstated) motive for doing so then 'd like to know and understand that because it might influence the discussion (I'm kind of a stickler for such things). If not, then no worries, let the discussion ensue as is.
To encourage some good apologetics, in the OP's direction...
 
Ah, well now, the Bible says that we all sin.

1 John 1:8, 9 (WEB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is written to believers.
 
Please do not try to change the topic away from your own op to my supposed personal views.
It was you who brought up the topic of sins committed by the saved. Since you are saved and apparently still sinning, then I'd like some more information about how you can sin and yet be saved. If you are to proud to confess your sins (which is two sins in one), then please explain how some other person, real or hypothetical, can sin yet be saved.
Especially in neglect of, or avoidance of first addressing the problem(s) already cited. If we can reach a scriptural consensus on the correct way of understanding then my views versus your views are immaterial.
"Scriptural consensuses" are rare among us Christians as you should know. So I've decided to focus on specific examples of sin among those who think they are saved.
You were asked how you reconcile three specific statements in your own posts. Explain in your own words how you do that.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
If it brings you any comfort, I hold monergist views of salvation.
I don't agree with that view because salvation should always be a voluntary act on the part of the saved.
I'm not your enemy. NOTHING I have posted should ever be construed to say such a thing and it will always be wrong of you to think otherwise.
I'm glad you have now explained that to me.
Don't say "fine," if you do not mean it.
I do mean it.
God and God alone saves and our conversion from death to life, and/or our regeneration by the Holy Spirit, our being born anew from above is God's doing and His doing alone, and not in any way causally dependent upon anything of the sinner's volition.
Your concept of salvation appears to involve forcing the unregenerate to convert.
It is only after conversion that human agency is relevant to salvation but that has very littel to do with OSAS.
If you're already saved, then I don't see how human volition comes into play.
Now try doing what I just did: answer the question asked!


How do you reconcile the three statements I quoted?
You'll need to post those questions so I know what they are.

Anyway, for a guy who demands people answer his questions, you've slipped out of my questions! I'll just need to assume, then, that you are still sinning. Frankly, your "process-salvation" seems very bizarre. It doesn't pinpoint the time a person is saved, for one thing, and neither does it involve true repentance. It appears to be an effort to be saved and have a good time sinning while you do it! It's no wonder why unbelievers routinely mock the sinfulness of Christians denouncing us as hypocrites.
 
Ah, well now, the Bible says that we all sin.

1 John 1:8, 9 (WEB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is written to believers.
Then please confess your own sins seeing that you believe we all sin. The passage you're citing involves sins of the past. Paul was very clear that we are to discontinue sinning. Romans 6:1-2:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
That looks very clear to me!
 
Then please confess your own sins seeing that you believe we all sin. The passage you're citing involves sins of the past. Paul was very clear that we are to discontinue sinning. Romans 6:1-2:


That looks very clear to me!
John is speaking of present tense sins - that is very clear.

Paul is talking about a lifestyle of sin, which we are not to continue (and born again Christians do not live a lifestyle of sin); but, we all still sin sometimes and we are to confess those sins to the Lord.
 
John is speaking of present tense sins - that is very clear.
Sure. And those who currently sin are not saved.
Paul is talking about a lifestyle of sin, which we are not to continue (and born again Christians do not live a lifestyle of sin); but, we all still sin sometimes and ...
That's funny--where did Paul say anything about a lifestyle of sin? And how many sins constitutes a lifestyle of sin? One more sin than what you've committed?
...we are to confess those sins to the Lord.
The Lord already knows. The rest of us are to be informed. What are your sins?

Allow me to confess my sins. I have engaged in extramarital sexual activity, I have abused illegal drugs and alcohol, I have vandalized other people's property, and I have deliberately hurt innocent people for no good reason. I have lied and have even committed perjury. My salvation has resulted in my putting all of that behind me forever.

See--that wasn't so bad, now was it? Christ has led me to humbly admit what sins I have done. I don't let my pride keep me from admitting I need to be forgiven.

But if you insist on sinning, then I cannot stop you. I just cringe when I think of unbelievers seeing Christians sin, and then those unbelievers mock Christ.
 
Sure. And those who currently sin are not saved.

That's funny--where did Paul say anything about a lifestyle of sin? And how many sins constitutes a lifestyle of sin? One more sin than what you've committed?

The Lord already knows. The rest of us are to be informed. What are your sins?

Allow me to confess my sins. I have engaged in extramarital sexual activity, I have abused illegal drugs and alcohol, I have vandalized other people's property, and I have deliberately hurt innocent people for no good reason. I have lied and have even committed perjury. My salvation has resulted in my putting all of that behind me forever.

See--that wasn't so bad, now was it? Christ has led me to humbly admit what sins I have done. I don't let my pride keep me from admitting I need to be forgiven.

But if you insist on sinning, then I cannot stop you. I just cringe when I think of unbelievers seeing Christians sin, and then those unbelievers mock Christ.
If you claim that you never sin nowadays, then you can add lying and pride to your list of sins. You need to repent of those as well.
 
John is speaking of present tense sins - that is very clear.

Paul is talking about a lifestyle of sin, which we are not to continue (and born again Christians do not live a lifestyle of sin); but, we all still sin sometimes and we are to confess those sins to the Lord.
Hello David1701 (et al), I agree with you. The Greek present tense speaks of an action that is BOTH 1. happening presently AND 2. ongoing, and this, I believe, is how 1 John 1-2 and 1 John 3 are shown to be harmonious, rather than contradictory.

Even by itself, 1 John 3:9, because of the verbs in the Greek present tense, is best translated (understood) like this,


1 John 3
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on (habitually) sinning (like an unbeliever who is living in sin/living a sinful "lifestyle"), because he has been born of God.

1 John 1-2 is also interesting, not only because of use of the Greek present tense (like 1 John 1:9's "If we ~confess~ our sins....."), but also/especially, because the elder Apostle John ~includes himself~ in the mix with everyone else in the church (from babes in Christ to fathers) as someone who still needs to confess his own, ongoing sins whenever he commits them, so that he can be forgiven and cleansed of them, and restored to full fellowship with the Lord.

Please take special note of the words in bold below in regard to this (to understand the scope of the group that he is writing both to about our need for ongoing confession of and forgiveness/cleansing from the sins that we commit as believers).


1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - like King David, we do not ask God to forgive the sins we commit (as believers) to be saved (again) or to remain saved, but to restore the close fellowship that we enjoyed with Him before we sinned (or, as David put it when he prayed to God, "
restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation" .. Psalm 51:12 .. not salvation itself, because his salvation was not lost, even though he had sinned grievously at that time).

Finally, while giving into some form of temptation and then sinning as a result is the last thing that a believer wants to do, it does have one positive aspect, because what we 'feel' when we do, and how we respond to it, can be useful in knowing that we really and truly are who we claim and believe ourselves to be, Christians. Or, as theologian and pastor A. W. Pink once said,



172598043.BgvTCMuQ.Pinknotabs_essors.jpg
 
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Hello David1701 (et al), I agree with you. The Greek present tense speaks of an action that is BOTH 1. happening presently AND 2. ongoing, and this, I believe, is how 1 John 1-2 and 1 John 3 are shown to be harmonious, rather than contradictory.

Even by itself, 1 John 3:9, because of the verbs in the Greek present tense, is best translated (understood) like this,


1 John 3
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on (habitually) sinning (like an unbeliever who is living in sin/living a sinful "lifestyle"), because he has been born of God.
Yes, that is an interesting translation, but I don't normally rely on the translations posted by anonymous individuals in online discussion forums for my Biblical exegesis. So I checked the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition (NRSVUE) of the Bible to see how it translates that passage (along with some important context --verse 10 included):
Those who have been born of God do not sin because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin because they have been born of God. The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love a brother or sister.
So contrary to what you claim, the translators of the NRSVUE see no such "practice of sinning," 'habitually sinning," or "lifestyle" in that passage. If we take 1 John 3:9-10 minus your creative eisegesis, we see that you are completely distorting 1 John 3:9. The truth is that 1 John is actually telling us that the saved do not and cannot sin. Coming up with a definition of a Greek word that means ongoing or habitual sin, even if correct, doesn't help your case much. For one thing, "ongoing" and "habitual" are not well defined: At what point does occasional sin become habitual? How long does the sin need to be committed to be categorized as ongoing? Since we cannot definitively answer these questions, it's nonsensical to argue that only habitual sin or ongoing sin is forbidden.

So God bless you too, Deut. I will pray for you petitioning God to lead you to repent of any sin in your life.
 
Yes, that is an interesting translation, but I don't normally rely on the translations posted by anonymous individuals in online discussion forums for my Biblical exegesis. So I checked the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition (NRSVUE) of the Bible to see how it translates that passage (along with some important context --verse 10 included):

So contrary to what you claim, the translators of the NRSVUE see no such "practice of sinning," 'habitually sinning," or "lifestyle" in that passage. If we take 1 John 3:9-10 minus your creative eisegesis, we see that you are completely distorting 1 John 3:9. The truth is that 1 John is actually telling us that the saved do not and cannot sin. Coming up with a definition of a Greek word that means ongoing or habitual sin, even if correct, doesn't help your case much. For one thing, "ongoing" and "habitual" are not well defined: At what point does occasional sin become habitual? How long does the sin need to be committed to be categorized as ongoing? Since we cannot definitively answer these questions, it's nonsensical to argue that only habitual sin or ongoing sin is forbidden.

So God bless you too, Deut. I will pray for you petitioning God to lead you to repent of any sin in your life.
Hello Unknown Soldier, the translation that I used in my last post for 1 John 3:9 was the ESV, just FYI (except what is in parentheses, of course, as those are my additions/paraphrases to better explain the meaning of the text).

Questioning what you've learned (or in this case, have been confronted with), especially out here in online Christendom, is ALWAYS a good idea (y)(y), so why not call or email your pastor and ask him (about
1 John 3:9 and what is actually meant by that verse, and about the Biblical Greek present tense, as well, how it works/how it qualifies the meaning of the verse that it is used in .. especially since it works in a such a different than our English present tense does).

That said, the problem of the apparent contradiction (between 1 John 1-2 and 1 John 3) remains, no matter which paraphrase or translation is used. Here it is again, this time in the NRSVUE.

1 John 1 (NRSVUE)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​
9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

Christ Our Advocate​


1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous,​
2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​
3 Now by this we know that we have come to know him, if we obey his commandments.​
4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist;​
5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we know that we are in him:​
6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk in the same way as he walked.​

A New Commandment​


7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment but an old commandment that you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word that you have heard.​
8 Yet I am writing you a new commandment that is true in him and in you, because[a] the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.​
9 Whoever says, “I am in the light,” while hating a brother or sister, is still in the darkness.​
10 Whoever loves a brother or sister abides in the light, and in such a person[b] there is no cause for stumbling.​
11 But whoever hates a brother or sister is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know the way to go, because the darkness has brought on blindness.​
12 I am writing to you, little children,​
because your sins are forgiven on account of his name.​
13 I am writing to you, fathers,​
because you know him who is from the beginning.​
I am writing to you, young people,​
because you have conquered the evil one.​
14 I write to you, children,​
because you know the Father.​
I write to you, fathers,​
because you know him who is from the beginning.​
I write to you, young people,​
because you are strong​
and the word of God abides in you,​
and you have overcome the evil one.​

The Apostle wrote this long passage to Christians, believers at all levels of maturity in the faith (IOW, from babes in Christ to fathers, as you can see above). And, perhaps most interestingly, the now elder Apostle John INCLUDES HIMSELF along with all of the other saints in the church as his use of the plural pronouns (above in bold) makes clear for us.

So, the question is, how do we harmonize what he wrote (in 1 John 1-2, which clearly indicates that believers, at all levels of maturity in the Christian faith, continue to fall to temptation and sin after we've become believers) with what he wrote just a Chapter later in the same Epistle (e.g.
1 John 3:9) :unsure:

Just FYI, 1 John 1:8 (see below) also uses the Greek present tense. This helps us know right from the get-go that he is speaking of an action that is both happening now and/or continuing to occur.


1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin (presently or ongoing), we deceive ourselves (presently or ongoing), and the truth is not in us.

Again, there is no reason to take my word for any of this, go ask your pastor as he will surely know (understanding Greek verb tenses and how they qualify the meaning of the Biblical text is something that he would have studied in school, beginning in Greek 101).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - since our sanctification (becoming more and more Christlike) principally involves sinning less and less, you might want to consider why the Bible spends so much ink talking about our need to do just that, about why God continually works to perfect/mature believers from justification to Glory .. e.g.
Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13, about our day by day, moment my moment need to put away the corrupted old man/old self, and to put on the new man/new self instead .. e.g. Ephesians 4:21-24, about our not allowing ourselves to be conformed to this world by the continual/ongoing transformation and renewing of our minds ..e.g. Romans 12:1-2, about our daily need to choose to walk by the Spirit, so that we do no gratify the desires of the flesh .. e.g. Galatians 5:16, etc., etc. (all of the linked Scriptures above are in the NRSVUE, just FYI)

If, as you seem to believe, God makes us perfect/sinless from the moment that He declares us just/saves us, why would any of the above commands be necessary (or the myriad of other commands in the NT that are like them) :unsure:

Again, don't take my word for it, go and ask your pastor :)(y)(y)

.
 
Many of us Christians have pondered the possibility of our losing our salvation. I would like to briefly argue that no, we cannot lose our salvation. To see why, it's important to understand that a Christian is more than a "believer"; a Christian is a steadfast actor and a thinker as well. When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures. We can no longer anger God to the point at which He would need to punish us for sin. In other words if we are genuinely saved we are no longer in danger of God's wrath. The reason why is that we no longer deserve to be punished because we have been fundamentally changed. We no longer think or act sinfully. If we did think sinfully or act sinfully, then we would still deserve God's judgment which is not what salvation is! So if you are saved, then you are saved eternally and eternally freed from sin. Those who sin such as those who are revilers, liars, extortioners, thieves, or drunkards are not saved or at least not saved yet. To be saved, you must "put on the new person" giving up forever the sins of your past. If you fail to do so, then you won't inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and you are deluded to think otherwise. As Jesus told us: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
For the sake of argument, please consider that by definition the gospel of Jesus Christ, in the narrow sense that is the person and work of Christ for all men and to all men, is objective true good news for all men and to all men.

Given that the preceding is true it becomes apparent that the identification and assurance of salvation is the person and work of Christ for all men rather than a person looking at himself in any manner. This was Jesus answer to Thomas and the others in John 14.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (Joh 14:6, KJVA)

Since this is necessarily so it follows that since a person's free will, choice, or works are not Christ then they are also not the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by them.

Paul unpacks this a little further in Ephesians 2. I suggest reading the whole chapter, but for brevity and focus here are verses three through ten. “3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: “9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:3-10, KJVA)

Verses five and six are highlighted because they clearly proclaim that in our salvation the LORD is the one acting and men are the passive recipients of that action.

Verse eight is highlighted because it refers to the grace or unmerited favor just mentioned and highlights that it is not of men but is instead the gift of God.

Verse nine is highlighted because people unfamiliar with the gospel try to find a way to avoid being the passive recipient of salvation, but that is excluded at every turn.

Although verse ten is not highlighted it is included because it indicates the active righteousness or justification of those whom the LORD has saved.

To sum up all the above, "The gospel is true and people believe it. The gospel is never true because people believe it." That's a rough quote or paraphrase from Our Great Heritage, Vol I, (c)NPH.

Last comment, salvation isn't a matter of free choice or free will vs predestination as some people conceive of the matter. Predestination when kept in it's Scriptural context is an affirmation and comfort to all men of salvation being God's work rather than the work of themselves, the work of men.

The best example of this is Paul's letter to the Romans. It was a letter to Christians whom he had never met but of which he was confident that they had previously been taught and received the one faith of the one church of God, which is Christ.

In Paul's:affirmation of and encouragement in that one faith, Christ, he only mentions predestination after all of the wonderful things in which God has worked and works to save. The mention is a comfort to those at Rome that their salvation is of God rather than of themselves.
 
O
Many of us Christians have pondered the possibility of our losing our salvation. I would like to briefly argue that no, we cannot lose our salvation. To see why, it's important to understand that a Christian is more than a "believer"; a Christian is a steadfast actor and a thinker as well. When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures. We can no longer anger God to the point at which He would need to punish us for sin. In other words if we are genuinely saved we are no longer in danger of God's wrath. The reason why is that we no longer deserve to be punished because we have been fundamentally changed. We no longer think or act sinfully. If we did think sinfully or act sinfully, then we would still deserve God's judgment which is not what salvation is! So if you are saved, then you are saved eternally and eternally freed from sin. Those who sin such as those who are revilers, liars, extortioners, thieves, or drunkards are not saved or at least not saved yet. To be saved, you must "put on the new person" giving up forever the sins of your past. If you fail to do so, then you won't inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and you are deluded to think otherwise. As Jesus told us: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Oh course we can. Free will does not cease. Where does scripture teach OSAS?
 
Hello Unknown Soldier, the translation that I used in my last post for 1 John 3:9 was the ESV, just FYI (except what is in parentheses, of course, as those are my additions/paraphrases to better explain the meaning of the text).

Questioning what you've learned (or in this case, have been confronted with), especially out here in online Christendom, is ALWAYS a good idea (y)(y), so why not call or email your pastor and ask him (about
1 John 3:9 and what is actually meant by that verse, and about the Biblical Greek present tense, as well, how it works/how it qualifies the meaning of the verse that it is used in .. especially since it works in a such a different than our English present tense does).
Thanks for the advice, but I'm left wondering how my pastor is the final arbiter of the issue of whether or not saved Christians can sin or are allowed to sin. If he were to tell me that yes they can and do sin, then I would disagree with him as much as I'm disagreeing with you. I don't normally appeal to human authority. To do so is a fallacy. Besides, I think my pastor would agree with me because he told me that a member of his congregation was sinning. My pastor told me that he told the man to either stop sinning or tell people he wasn't a Christian.

So what has your pastor told you? Did he tell you that sinning on the part of the saved is to be expected? Has he granted you an indulgence to sin, or has he told you to stop sinning?
 
Hello Unknown Soldier, the translation that I used in my last post for 1 John 3:9 was the ESV, just FYI (except what is in parentheses, of course, as those are my additions/paraphrases to better explain the meaning of the text).

Questioning what you've learned (or in this case, have been confronted with), especially out here in online Christendom, is ALWAYS a good idea (y)(y), so why not call or email your pastor and ask him (about
1 John 3:9 and what is actually meant by that verse, and about the Biblical Greek present tense, as well, how it works/how it qualifies the meaning of the verse that it is used in .. especially since it works in a such a different than our English present tense does).
Thanks for the advice, but I'm left wondering how my pastor is the final arbiter of the issue of whether or not saved Christians can sin or are allowed to sin. If he were to tell me that yes they can and do sin, then I would disagree with him as much as I'm disagreeing with you. I don't normally appeal to human authority. To do so is a fallacy. Besides, I think my pastor would agree with me because he told me that a member of his congregation was sinning. My pastor told me that he told the man to either stop sinning or tell people he wasn't a Christian.

So what has your pastor told you? Did he tell you that sinning on the part of the saved is to be expected? Has he granted you an indulgence to sin, or has he told you to stop sinning?

.
If I may, I think what Deuteronomy is suggesting is that you consult your pastor because he might be able to walk you through God's word with a greater familiarity of you and your spiritual development since he is specifically educated and experienced in that endeavor and presumably knows you better than anyone in cyberspace.

The reluctance expressed prompts a curious concern because presumably your participation in a cyberspace discussion board with other Christians in a peer-oriented manner is intended for the purpose of learning the truths of God's word and living a life increasingly consistent with those truths. If that is not the reason for your participation in the forum then perhaps you will enlighten us about your intent.

Otherwise, your pastor should be at least as effective source for fellowship-style learning as any of us as long as he appeals to God's word correctly rendered. If he's not, then perhaps a new congregation with a better pastor is in order.
 
It was you who brought up the topic of sins committed by the saved.
No, that is incorrect.

The opening post plainly states,
Many of us Christians have pondered the possibility of our losing our salvation. I would like to briefly argue that no, we cannot lose our salvation. To see why, it's important to understand that a Christian is more than a "believer"; a Christian is a steadfast actor and a thinker as well. When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures. We can no longer anger God to the point at which He would need to punish us for sin. In other words if we are genuinely saved we are no longer in danger of God's wrath. The reason why is that we no longer deserve to be punished because we have been fundamentally changed. We no longer think or act sinfully. If we did think sinfully or act sinfully, then we would still deserve God's judgment which is not what salvation is! So if you are saved, then you are saved eternally and eternally freed from sin. Those who sin such as those who are revilers, liars, extortioners, thieves, or drunkards are not saved or at least not saved yet. To be saved, you must "put on the new person" giving up forever the sins of your past. If you fail to do so, then you won't inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and you are deluded to think otherwise. As Jesus told us: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
You brought up the topic of sins committed by the saved.

And when I commented and asked you about it you tried to shift the onus away from your own statements and have me handle the matter. The irony of referencing, "put on the new person," is those words were written to already saved people who were acting sinfully.
Since you are saved and apparently still sinning, then I'd like some more information about how you can sin and yet be saved.
I have already answered and addressed your concern and you're ignoring what I posted. Why should I give you more information if you're going to sinfully ignore and not take righteous responsibility for it? Don't like that rhetoric? Then how about this: why should I give more information to a person who has not shown parity in the conversation? Why should I give more information to a person that won't collaborate with an equal exchange of give and take, question and answer?

Why should I provide more information to a person who says Paul might be lying? A person who in one post says, "Neither did Paul come for us to be illogical or sinful for that matter," and in another says, "You're assuming that Paul was right about Peter"?


Either Paul bore false witness and thereby sinned after his conversion to Christ, or Paul's epistolary report is correct and Peter sinned after his conversion to Christ. Either way there is a report straight out of God's word testifying about an apostle sinning. You've gone on record stating a person who is saved no longer acts sinfully.

Scripture says otherwise.

Correction is not rejection.
Fine. Please correct me by explaining in your own words this salvation process of yours.
Nope, we're not going to change the subject away from "Once Saved Always Saved," and the argument a person is and will always be saved because they can never sin again once saved.

OSAS is a valid doctrine but its validity does not lie in the premise a saved person will never sin and therefore never deserve God's wrath. That is just wrong. Peter sinned or Paul sinned (or both) after their being saved by God and you are not addressing that fact. You're trying to shift the conversation away for this matter to my view of salvation, even though I have gone on record stating OSAS is correct and even though I have TWO avenues for understanding the veracity of OSAS.



Address the fact Peter and/or Paul did in fact sin after their conversion to Christ. Address the fact that all the many, many corrections in the epistolary were written to those who were already saved.

Romans 1:7
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours...:

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia...

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus...

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons...

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae...

In every single one of those letters - letters used in this opening post to make its case - the author was writing to those who were already saved. Every single word of correction in every single one of those letters was written to correct the sins of already saved people. Some of that correct was said to and for leaders in those congregations.

Ephesians 4:11-16 ESV
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.


Not a single word of that would be necessary if saved people never sinner after their conversion to Christ. The "new person" to which you referred is something to be "put on" after conversion. You have TWO, not one, inconsistencies with your own op. The first has to do with the claim the saved never sin in light of what I have here posted. The second is your own claim of having sinned after your conversion and your own clam a person who sins is not saved.

Do not ask me to explain the salvation process to you until you have either reconciled those two inconsistencies or acknowledged their error. You might start with, "Yeah, Josh, I can see the contradictions, but I don't know how to resolved them."

I can help with that.


And I can do it in a way that will help you be a better apologist for OSAS. Just saying.
 
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