Accountability

[leonard03782]

............

 

[balshan]

I rest my case.

You failed to prove anything other than the false beliefs of your institution. So you gave up prematurely to prove anything at all. Every mass is a sacrifice, so what is being sacrificed if not Jesus? Jesus is the only thing on the altar.

If it looks like worship, it is worship. A rose by any other name is still a rose. A thing does not change what it is just because you call it by a different name.

 

[organgrinder]

There are several posters that claim we worship Mary and others that claim we re-sacrifice Jesus at ever Mass.

Let's deal with the Mass first. I have a few questions I need to ask you.

Biblically:

• What was the altar and historically why was there one and its function? How was it used in the OT and the NT? As an FYI, the word is used 378 times in the OT and NT of the Bible.
• Did Jesus become the perfect sacrifice for sin as the Passover Lamb? What did that mean?
• Is sacrifice for sins still required or was it done one time by Jesus?
• Is an altar as historically defined in scripture still needed? If so, why?

 

[Stella1000]

Let's deal with the Mass first. I have a few questions I need to ask you.

Biblically:

• What was the altar and historically why was there one and its function? How was it used in the OT and the NT? As an FYI, the word is used 378 times in the OT and NT of the Bible.

Ok I'll have a go. For the Jews the altar was for sacrificial purposes of atonement for sin.

For Christians the altar is for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise for the sacrifice that Jesus made, as per Paul to Corinthians...

1Cor11 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

• Did Jesus become the perfect sacrifice for sin as the Passover Lamb? What did that mean?

He gave Himself to be the Lamb, the sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world.

• Is sacrifice for sins still required or was it done one time by Jesus?

Jesus sacrifice was once and for all time.

• Is an altar as historically defined in scripture still needed? If so, why?

Not for new sacrifice but for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise as per Pauls instruction.

 

[mica]

I rest my case.

you have no case.

 

[mica]

Ok I'll have a go. For the Jews the altar was for sacrificial purposes of atonement for sin.

For Christians the altar is for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise for the sacrifice that Jesus made, as per Paul to Corinthians...

1Cor11 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


He gave Himself to be the Lamb, the sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus sacrifice was once and for all time.

Not for new sacrifice but for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise as per Pauls instruction.

post Paul's verse regarding an altar.

 

[organgrinder]

This is a text book example of Question Begging.

Why? Because you are assuming that anyone who is Catholic either 1) does NOT know Jesus, and or 2) If they DO know Jesus OR come to know Jesus, will leave the Catholic Faith becasue the Catholic Faith is false. I do not accept the premises assumed in the question. I know Jesus as my Lord and savior, AND I believe all that the RCC teaches and professes. The more I study the Bible and the more I study theology, the more certain I become of what I believe.

Let me restate the question in a way that isn't begging the question, and then answer it.

Will any person, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc, who seeks Truth and seeks God with a sincere heart find God and thus be given sufficient knowledge of Christ to be saved? I believe the answer is YES.

So what is sufficient knowledge of Christ to be saved for the groups you have listed? Just being sincere in the practice of what you believe does not equate in most of those groups with sufficient knowledge of Christ. Is a sincere Muslim who believes all non Muslims are infidels and should be eradicated unless they submit to Islam in this group? He practices his faith sincerely. He believes Allah is real and Mohammed is is messenger. Jesus isn't in the equation of the sincere Muslim.

That is just one scenario. There can be others.

I believe that Jesus Christ is absolutely ESSENCIAL and NECESSARY for salvation. Anyone who is saved is saved through Jesus Christ. No one can be saved apart from or without Christ. Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.

How do you rationalize this statement with your prior list of examples, especially an atheist?

As I have said before and I will say it again: I have seen Muslims and Jewish people who are more Christian or Catholic than half the people who frequent either Protestant or Catholic churches on the weekends. I have seen Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist, etc, who are more Christian than some of the posters on this site. Christianity is not something one talks about, it is a way of life, a way of living. I do not care what someone TELLS me about Christianity, I care that they SHOW me Christianity. Don't TELL me about the Bible, SHOW me the Bible by the way you LIVE. EMBODY the Bible in your ACTIONS.

This is nothing new and is correct in many instances. Being a disciple of Jesus-- not the member of any one church or organization-- means living a changed life which includes a proper understanding of God and salvation (doctrine). Living a moral life that embodies many Judeo-Christian values does not merit salvation. Faith alone in Christ alone does that. The moral living embodied in Judeo-Christian values are to follow faith which is what we see in verse 10 of Ephesians 2. Faith comes first and works follow or else the faith is dead as James says in chapter two of his letter.

Belief that simply living a good moral life (I am a good person!) regardless of whether a person is Catholic, Protestant, atheist, Buddist, Mormon, Muslim, etc. gets one salvation is simply universalism, and that is a false doctrine. However, it is accepted by the RCC is it not? Are we misunderstanding Pope Francis in this regard or what Vatican has apparently given? I admit Vatican II has muddied the waters and made doctrine far less clear.

 

[organgrinder]

Ok I'll have a go. For the Jews the altar was for sacrificial purposes of atonement for sin.

For Christians the altar is for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise for the sacrifice that Jesus made, as per Paul to Corinthians...

1Cor11 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


He gave Himself to be the Lamb, the sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus sacrifice was once and for all time.

Not for new sacrifice but for remembrance, thanksgiving and praise as per Pauls instruction.

Thank you for responding. Hopefully the dingoling as he calls himself will answer as it was directly referencing his post. However, I concur with Mica that your quotation of 1 Corinthians 11:23 does not reference the Altar. This is important in the discussion that will follow.

 

[RayneBeau]

He cannot go against His word that is for sure. He can do want He wants within His word.

2 Cor 12: 7+

Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

Rom 8: 1+

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you

1 Cor 1:28

28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord

Heb 13:5+

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,

“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”
6 So we say with confidence,

“The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can mere mortals do to me?”

So God can never forsake those He has saved.

Those scripture verses are beautiful balshan!
God wants us to be wise. His will is that we use our minds. God does not want one single person to turn their 'will' over to the Roman Catholic Pontiff, as is required by the Roman Catholic Church for all those, who for whatever reason are considered a Roman Catholic. It is an intellectual sin - to refuse to submit every thought to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in the realm of knowledge - the person who refuses will never come to a saving belief. We are supposed to think, to meditate - to be discerning. In so many well-known Bible verses, we see the repeated use of the words like truth, knowledge, discernment, wisdom and understanding such as this verse in Psalms:
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who do His commandments." Psalms 111: 10

 

[organgrinder]

There are several posters that claim we worship Mary and others that claim we re-sacrifice Jesus at ever Mass.

organgrinder responded:
Let's deal with the Mass first. I have a few questions I need to ask you.

Biblically:

• What was the altar and historically why was there one and its function? How was it used in the OT and the NT? As an FYI, the word is used 378 times in the OT and NT of the Bible.
• Did Jesus become the perfect sacrifice for sin as the Passover Lamb? What did that mean?
• Is sacrifice for sins still required or was it done one time by Jesus?
• Is an altar as historically defined in scripture still needed? If so, why?

So still awaiting a response from you after your assertions. You have been on other threads but are ignoring these questions. Stella made a response, although one quotation she provided didn't reference what was asked.

Are you going to continue dodge questions relative to your Catholic beliefs as you do on other threads when you get "stuck"?

 

[dingoling.]

So still awaiting a response from you after your assertions. You have been on other threads but are ignoring these questions. Stella made a response, although one quotation she provided didn't reference what was asked.

Are you going to continue dodge questions relative to your Catholic beliefs as you do on other threads when you get "stuck"?

When the questions divert from the topic of the thread, I don't always answer them. If you have a point to make then just make your point.

The altar is where the priest would offer the different sacrifices to God, mostly on behalf of the one presenting the offering.

 

[organgrinder]

When the questions divert from the topic of the thread, I don't always answer them. If you have a point to make then just make your point.

The altar is where the priest would offer the different sacrifices to God, mostly on behalf of the one presenting the offering.

The questions did not divert. They were germane to your assertions. Unfortunately you don't seem capable of understanding that. Try to answer if you are capable. If you can't say so. Your "diversion" claim is simply false.

 

[dingoling.]

The questions did not divert. They were germane to your assertions. Unfortunately you don't seem capable of understanding that. Try to answer if you are capable. If you can't say so. Your "diversion" claim is simply false.

I answered part of the questions. I am at work and can't give a lengthy treatise on your questions.

What is the topic of the thread? Yes we have gotten away from the topic of the thread.

 

[organgrinder]

I answered part of the questions. I am at work and can't give a lengthy treatise on your questions.

What is the topic of the thread? Yes we have gotten away from the topic of the thread.

You make an assertion people are falsifying information. I asked you to give us an answer to three questions so we can determine if those assertions are true. You run away from it in your typical fashion. Do it after work it you are able. I am not sure you are willing to substantiate your assertions. And as far as "work" goes, you seem to post on multiple threads during your work hours, so I don't buy that either.

Yes, the topic of this thread is "Accountability". I am giving you a chance to be "accountable" for making your assertions.

 

[RayneBeau]

Pure blather.
We are born again and brought into a covenantal relationship with God at baptism, at which we become sons and daughters of God and members of the Church.
To leave the Church is to be a prodigal son or daughter. There is no salvation outside the Father's house.

pilgrim - So, according to you and Roman Catholicism, repentance and faith are just "pure blather," huh? And you know this because your claim that you were baptized in the RCC meant that you then became a son or daughter of God and members of the Church of Rome, by being sprinkled with water. That will not, and does not make you 'born again' or brought into a covenantal relationship with God and/ or members of that church. The reason why you spew out your answer of "pure blather" is because faith and repentance are requisites for knowledge, which according to your answer and God's Word - you obviously don't have! Whose words are true pilgrim, - yours, the RCC's, or God's?

 

[pilgrim]

pilgrim - So, according to you and Roman Catholicism, repentance and faith are just "pure blather," huh? And you know this because your claim that you were baptized in the RCC meant that you then became a son or daughter of God and members of the Church of Rome, by being sprinkled with water. That will not, and does not make you 'born again' or brought into a covenantal relationship with God and/ or members of that church. The reason why you spew out your answer of "pure blather" is because faith and repentance are requisites for knowledge, which according to your answer and God's Word - you obviously don't have! Whose words are true pilgrim, - yours, the RCC's, or God's?

Now that Jesus is ascended, who speaks for Him?
The pillar and foundation of the truth

 

[organgrinder]

Now that Jesus is ascended, who speaks for Him?
The pillar and foundation of the truth

You diverted from answering the question. Try again. This is becoming commonplace with you RC posters.

 

[A new day]

Now that Jesus is ascended, who speaks for Him?

The Rcc doesn't speak about Jesus, it speaks of mary, the church, saints and dead people. Since I first began posting on carm, this is all I've heard from rc's themselves on here. There is just too much teachings, actions, words and dogma of the Rcc that we will never find common ground with.
Just because you said a little ounce of truth, doesn't mean it will cause us to perk up our ears, and swallow anything the Rcc throws out there.

 

[mica]

Now that Jesus is ascended, who speaks for Him?

scripture tells us -

Jn 14 kjv - John was speaking to believers

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:

but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The pillar and foundation of the truth

catholics aren't taught His truth - the rcc doesn't teach His truth.

the rcc / catholics can't be the pillar and foundation of truth they don't know or believe.

 

[balshan]

When the questions divert from the topic of the thread, I don't always answer them. If you have a point to make then just make your point.

The altar is where the priest would offer the different sacrifices to God, mostly on behalf of the one presenting the offering.

In other words I can not answer the questions, so I who normally divert, will pretend that questions is a diversion.