Men, Women, Sex and Gender

[BMS]

Yes, the are a woman (gender).

Nope, woman is the adult female which is biological sex. you are using the word gender to deny the biological sex.

I cannot believe that anybody could ask this question and be remotely serious.

I cant believe a person cannot see the reality. Must be a spirit blinding the reality

 

[Nedsk]

You are making no sense. I know what the context is. Your "what's that?" was in response to my "It means that they choose to live and present as a woman". Again, what's what? Which word are you asking about?

You said, "It means that they choose to live and present as a woman".
I asked what is that? What is the last word in that sentence referring to?

 

[Nedsk]

Except that it's not remotely science-denying nor have (or can) you or anyone else show that it is.

And I'll point out - yet again - that the rest of the western world is far more liberal than the US and what makes America look stupid to the world (whether that opinion of theirs is justified or not) are things on the conservative side, like Trumpism and creationism.

No what makes us look stupid is thinking people with XY chromosomes and a penis are actually women.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

No, the "core of trans ideology" does not run completely (or even partially or obliquely) "counter to the core of feminists idealogy, nor are they completely at odds with one another. That's completely nonsense which you cannot support.

By and large, feminists are supportive of the trans movement, because they know that it's not remotely counter to feminism.

One of the groups most vehemently opposed to the trans movement is the feminists. That's a fact. And when you say I can't support what I said...yeah, in other posts I quote prominent feminist Kara Dansky on this. I didn't make it up.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

What makes a person a woman? According to numerous posters here who shall not be named but we all know who they are, a woman is a person who claims to be a woman. Regardless of anything else. But how would that person know they are a woman? They would know that because they feel like a woman. And how do they feel like a woman? Because, according to many, gender is a social construct. Which means that if a person has preferences that fall more in line with what society says a woman ought to be like, then that person must be a woman. Regardless of any objective scientific evidence.

Now, if this is all true, it means that gender identity is paramount, and biological sex is reduced to a mere afterthought in terms of whether a person is a man or a woman. In other words, society’s expectations attached to gender is the only consideration, and biological reality is utterly irrelevant.

There are numerous obvious problems with this, but let’s just accept it for a moment. Feminist ideology hold that biological sex is paramount and society’s expectations placed on gender takes a backseat. In other words you are a woman because you are a female, not because you display certain characteristics that society thinks women ought to be like. This is why feminist Dansky says that a person with a vagina and XX chromosomes is a woman whether she wears high heels or work boots, whether she is a doll loving person or a gun loving person, or whether she takes up a more traditionally feminine role or a more traditional masculine role. What makes her a woman is the fact that she is female and ought not be discriminated against if she does not fit stereotypical gender categories.

We can very quickly see why trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology. Trans ideology elevates societal expectations and gender categories and minimizes, or even eliminates, biological sex when considering whether a person is a “real” man or woman. Feminist ideology on the other hand elevates biological sex and minimizes societal expectations and gender categories.

Trans ideology says you are a woman if, regardless of your sexual biology, you feel like a woman based on society’s expectations of what women are like. Feminist ideology says you are a woman because you have certain sexual biology, regardless of whether you meet society’s expectations of what women are like.

Thus we see that trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology, just as Dansky has argued.

 

[Nedsk]

What makes a person a woman? According to numerous posters here who shall not be named but we all know who they are, a woman is a person who claims to be a woman. Regardless of anything else. But how would that person know they are a woman? They would know that because they feel like a woman. And how do they feel like a woman? Because, according to many, gender is a social construct. Which means that if a person has preferences that fall more in line with what society says a woman ought to be like, then that person must be a woman. Regardless of any objective scientific evidence.

Now, if this is all true, it means that gender identity is paramount, and biological sex is reduced to a mere afterthought in terms of whether a person is a man or a woman. In other words, society’s expectations attached to gender is the only consideration, and biological reality is utterly irrelevant.

There are numerous obvious problems with this, but let’s just accept it for a moment. Feminist ideology hold that biological sex is paramount and society’s expectations placed on gender takes a backseat. In other words you are a woman because you are a female, not because you display certain characteristics that society thinks women ought to be like. This is why feminist Dansky says that a person with a vagina and XX chromosomes is a woman whether she wears high heels or work boots, whether she is a doll loving person or a gun loving person, or whether she takes up a more traditionally feminine role or a more traditional masculine role. What makes her a woman is the fact that she is female and ought not be discriminated against if she does not fit stereotypical gender categories.

We can very quickly see why trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology. Trans ideology elevates societal expectations and gender categories and minimizes, or even eliminates, biological sex when considering whether a person is a “real” man or woman. Feminist ideology on the other hand elevates biological sex and minimizes societal expectations and gender categories.

Trans ideology says you are a woman if, regardless of your sexual biology, you feel like a woman based on society’s expectations of what women are like. Feminist ideology says you are a woman because you have certain sexual biology, regardless of whether you meet society’s expectations of what women are like.

Thus we see that trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology, just as Dansky has argued.

They absolutely know all of that but in order to be consistent with their foolish ideology they have to appear to be completely illogical. The problem is they seem to have hesitation about doing it for nothing more than a moronic ideology. Showed you powerful it is.

 

[Nedsk]

One of the groups most vehemently opposed to the trans movement is the feminists. That's a fact. And when you say I can't support what I said...yeah, in other posts I quote prominent feminist Kara Dansky on this. I didn't make it up.

This trans foolishness is destroying women's sports, which feminists fought hard to establish so I can't blame them for seeing it as a threat, because it is.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

This trans foolishness is destroying women's sports, which feminists fought hard to establish so I can't blame them for seeing it as a threat, because it is.

I don’t know if it will get to the point of actually destroying women’s sports. But it certainly is changing things and will continue to do so unless something else happens.

 

[Nedsk]

I don’t know if it will get to the point of actually destroying women’s sports. But it certainly is changing things and will continue to do so unless something else happens.

I think it will. I think we will end up with men's sports just as they are now and what was women's sports will become something trans related. Not sure what it will be called but biological women will have to compete with bio men who couldn't compete in men's sports will claim to be women. That eventually will result in bio women starting their own sports again but with a different label.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Society used to say, “you’re a real girl if you’re a female and you conform to our gender expectations. If you’re a female and you don’t conform, you’re a tomboy.”

Feminists came along and said, “you’re a real girl because you’re a female, whether or not you conform to society’s gender expectations. A tomboy is still a girl.”

Trans ideologues came along and say, “you’re a real girl because you conform to society’s gender expectations, whether or not you’re a female. A tomboy is actually a boy.”

I trust that people can see how and why gender ideology is contrary to feminist ideology, and why so many feminists who have fought against “a real girl is someone who confirms to society’s gender expectations” are soooooo against trans ideology. Trans ideology not only undoes everything the feminists fought for, but takes it even further back, so you now have actual MEN winning “Woman of the year” awards and Women’s NCAA championships.

 

[Nedsk]

Society used to say, “you’re a real girl if you’re a female and you conform to our gender expectations. If you’re a female and you don’t conform, you’re a tomboy.”

Feminists came along and said, “you’re a real girl because you’re a female, whether or not you conform to society’s gender expectations. A tomboy is still a girl.”

Trans ideologues came along and say, “you’re a real girl because you conform to society’s gender expectations, whether or not you’re a female. A tomboy is actually a boy.”

I trust that people can see how and why gender ideology is contrary to feminist ideology, and why so many feminists who have fought against “a real girl is someone who confirms to society’s gender expectations” are soooooo against trans ideology. Trans ideology not only undoes everything the feminists fought for, but takes it even further back, so you now have actual MEN winning “Woman of the year” awards and Women’s NCAA championships.

I agree but they won't be happy until they destroy it all. I knew girls growing up who played baseball with us but that didn't make them boys. This foolishness has to stop.

 

[BMS]

I agree but they won't be happy until they destroy it all. I knew girls growing up who played baseball with us but that didn't make them boys. This foolishness has to stop.

Its causing division everywhere. The alarming problem is they are teaching this in schools, the next generation are being captured.

 

[Nedsk]

Its causing division everywhere. The alarming problem is they are teaching this in schools, the next generation are being captured.

Yes that's why it's essential it be stopped. The evil oozes out of them.

 

[BMS]

Yes that's why it's essential it be stopped. The evil oozes out of them.

How? They have captured education. The universities just cancel any opposition or oust their professors such as in the case of Kathleen Stock, and the schools completely ignore the government advice and guidance.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

So he showing you that you are making no sense.

No, "he" not.

A person choosing to live as the opposite sex doesn't make that person the opposite sex.

Strawman. Nobody suggests or implies it does.

Yes your ideology denies science.

No, it doesn't, nor can you or anybody else show it does.

The biological sex is male and female, man and woman, a person's gender therefore cannot be the opposite of their biological sex because biological sex is immutable

That "biological sex is immutable" does not mean that "a person's gender cannot be the opposite of their biological sex".

Nope, woman is the adult female which is biological sex.

Woman is also gender.

[/QUOTE]you are using the word gender to deny the biological sex. [/QUOTE]
Strawman. Nobody is even trying to do so.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You said, "It means that they choose to live and present as a woman".
I asked what is that? What is the last word in that sentence referring to?

You've already been told that, repeatedly. I created an entire thread outlining it.

No what makes us look stupid is thinking people with XY chromosomes and a penis are actually women.

No, that makes us look stupid to conservative so-called Christians, like yourself. As repeatedly stated, the rest of the western world is much more liberal than the US, and what makes us look stupid to the rest of the word is conservative things like being anti-trans, Trumpism and creaitonism.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

One of the groups most vehemently opposed to the trans movement is the feminists. That's a fact. And when you say I can't support what I said...yeah, in other posts I quote prominent feminist Kara Dansky on this. I didn't make it up.

Again, that's simply false. One small section of feminists are anti-trans. The movement overall is pro-trans.

And citing one person as evidence that the "core of trans ideology" runs completely (or even partially or obliquely) counter to the core of feminists idealogy" fails badly, sorry. There is no viewpoint so far out as to have nobody who will support it, as you know.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

What makes a person a woman? According to numerous posters here who shall not be named but we all know who they are, a woman is a person who claims to be a woman. Regardless of anything else. But how would that person know they are a woman? They would know that because they feel like a woman. And how do they feel like a woman? Because, according to many, gender is a social construct. Which means that if a person has preferences that fall more in line with what society says a woman ought to be like, then that person must be a woman. Regardless of any objective scientific evidence.

Now, if this is all true, it means that gender identity is paramount, and biological sex is reduced to a mere afterthought in terms of whether a person is a man or a woman. In other words, society’s expectations attached to gender is the only consideration, and biological reality is utterly irrelevant.

There are numerous obvious problems with this, but let’s just accept it for a moment. Feminist ideology hold that biological sex is paramount and society’s expectations placed on gender takes a backseat. In other words you are a woman because you are a female, not because you display certain characteristics that society thinks women ought to be like. This is why feminist Dansky says that a person with a vagina and XX chromosomes is a woman whether she wears high heels or work boots, whether she is a doll loving person or a gun loving person, or whether she takes up a more traditionally feminine role or a more traditional masculine role. What makes her a woman is the fact that she is female and ought not be discriminated against if she does not fit stereotypical gender categories.

We can very quickly see why trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology. Trans ideology elevates societal expectations and gender categories and minimizes, or even eliminates, biological sex when considering whether a person is a “real” man or woman. Feminist ideology on the other hand elevates biological sex and minimizes societal expectations and gender categories.

Trans ideology says you are a woman if, regardless of your sexual biology, you feel like a woman based on society’s expectations of what women are like. Feminist ideology says you are a woman because you have certain sexual biology, regardless of whether you meet society’s expectations of what women are like.

Thus we see that trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology, just as Dansky has argued.

Yet the vast majority of feminists disagrees, and Dansky's is very much a minority view.

 

[Backup]

What makes a person a woman? According to numerous posters here who shall not be named but we all know who they are, a woman is a person who claims to be a woman. Regardless of anything else. But how would that person know they are a woman? They would know that because they feel like a woman. And how do they feel like a woman? Because, according to many, gender is a social construct. Which means that if a person has preferences that fall more in line with what society says a woman ought to be like, then that person must be a woman. Regardless of any objective scientific evidence.

Now, if this is all true, it means that gender identity is paramount, and biological sex is reduced to a mere afterthought in terms of whether a person is a man or a woman. In other words, society’s expectations attached to gender is the only consideration, and biological reality is utterly irrelevant.

There are numerous obvious problems with this, but let’s just accept it for a moment. Feminist ideology hold that biological sex is paramount and society’s expectations placed on gender takes a backseat. In other words you are a woman because you are a female, not because you display certain characteristics that society thinks women ought to be like. This is why feminist Dansky says that a person with a vagina and XX chromosomes is a woman whether she wears high heels or work boots, whether she is a doll loving person or a gun loving person, or whether she takes up a more traditionally feminine role or a more traditional masculine role. What makes her a woman is the fact that she is female and ought not be discriminated against if she does not fit stereotypical gender categories.

We can very quickly see why trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology. Trans ideology elevates societal expectations and gender categories and minimizes, or even eliminates, biological sex when considering whether a person is a “real” man or woman. Feminist ideology on the other hand elevates biological sex and minimizes societal expectations and gender categories.

Trans ideology says you are a woman if, regardless of your sexual biology, you feel like a woman based on society’s expectations of what women are like. Feminist ideology says you are a woman because you have certain sexual biology, regardless of whether you meet society’s expectations of what women are like.

Thus we see that trans ideology runs completely counter to feminist ideology, just as Dansky has argued.

What you don’t seem to grasp is we really don’t care how adults dress and self-identify.

We don’t get all hot and bothered about it.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

MSN

Why not just a jar of pills and a little plastic surgery?

How do they 'know" she is a girl?