Roman Catholic Thoughts On Spiritual Delusion . . . .

[1Thess521]

There is a difference between faith and faith alone. Scripture clearly teaches that faith without works is dead.

James 2:22, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works."

So why do the nCCs keep insisting that we are justified by faith alone and not by works when scripture clearly indicates otherwise?

BECAUSE the faith of Demons (mere mental assent/ intellectual belief) does not save

You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft (Catholic author)

A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief. “You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit."

From Jimmy Akin interpretation of the Council of Trent?
He is the lead apologetics from Catholic.com

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term “faith” in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says. Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2). We might rephrase the canon:

“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.”

 

[dingoling.]

did you not read post 474? is it that you don't understand it? or just don't want to understand it?

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Yes, I read it. It doesn't say faith alone. The reason it doesn't say faith alone is because faith cannot be alone.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[dingoling.]

BECAUSE the faith of Demons (mere mental assent) does not save

You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft (Catholic author)

A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief. “You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit."

From Jimmy Akin interpretation of the Council of Trent?
He is the lead apologetics from Catholic.com

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term “faith” in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says. Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2). We might rephrase the canon:

“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.”

The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that we are not saved by faith alone, in the sense that the nCCs present it. Scripture teaches that faith without works is dead.

If scripture tells that faith without works is dead then how can faith be alone without any works?

 

[1Thess521]

The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that we are not saved by faith alone, in the sense that the nCCs present it. Scripture teaches that faith without works is dead.

If scripture tells that faith without works is dead then how can faith be alone without any works?

IF you define faith as mere mental assent
THEN no one is saved by faith alone

"Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term “faith” in the sense of intellectual belief "

no nCC ever made the claim that intellectual belie saves

 

[Stella1000]

Uh yes Catholics do, like submitting to the pope who declared that one must be subject to the pope in order to be saved. And don't forget the teachings about Indulgences, Mary's IC and PV, and praying to saints dead in the Lord....

People run with the word infallible as if everything a Pope says has to be submitted to but can't to understand the conditions. When he defines something ex cathedra, we can be guaranteed of it's truth. Those moments have been really quite rare.

You seem to forget that Jesus predicted that false prophets and false Christs would arise in His name, in an attempt to lead the elect astray. Peter and Paul both warned about ravening wolves and false teachers infiltrating the church.

So Jesus never guaranteed that error would never infiltrate His church. But He did guarantee that it would never die. God always keeps a remnant for Himself. There will always be true teachers of the Word and those that worship God in Christ Jesus in spirit and in truth.

I'm well aware of the warning about false prophets and at the same time confident with the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

The CCC is an unholy, complicated mess. We don't need it. No one does.

I can only think when nonCC's say something like this it is being completely oblivious to the world of Christians outside the Church and the thousands of 'anything and everything goes' variations.

 

[mica]

Yes, I read it. It doesn't say faith alone. The reason it doesn't say faith alone is because faith cannot be alone.

Faith without works is dead.

if it wasn't alone then you'd be able to tell us what is 'with' it. you can't. post after post and you still can't tell us, can you?

i remember another thread where you went on and on for months about something unscriptural - that you claimed was. you don't want His truth because it isn't what the rcc teaches. you love your 'works'!

do you know what the gospel is yet?

 

[organgrinder]

Why would we need to embrace it as true if we don't know with certainty what God's word is and what it is not.

Well if you don't know what God's Word is... and it certainly appears from your postings you really don't understand what you are posting-- you need to repent, ask Jesus to come into your heart, make Him not just Savior but Lord in all areas of your life. You will have the Holy Spirit dwell within you who will teach you out God's written Word-- the Bible-- what you need to know in all things pertaining to salvation, life and righteousness. Based on what I am quoting from you, it appears you don't have that.

 

[1Thess521]

The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that we are not saved by faith alone, in the sense that the nCCs present it.

" in the sense that the nCCs present it."
What are you talking about???

This is the way nCCs present it.

from Jimmy Akin on EWTN (the lead apolgeticists at Catholic .com)
all quotes from the link below
"Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity"

if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
_________________

read that again
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
----------
continuing

"The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestants idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan salvation by faith alone becomes the Catholic slogan salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone)."

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

We might rephrase the canon:

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.​

And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.6

So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
---------------------

Read that again
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.

now lay your enlightened OPINION on us

Justification: 'By Faith Alone?' | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

 

[organgrinder]

yes, my mistake

No problem. Easy to do here.

 

[1Thess521]

People run with the word infallible as if everything a Pope says has to be submitted to but can't to understand the conditions. When he defines something ex cathedra, we can be guaranteed of it's truth. Those moments have been really quite rare.



I'm well aware of the warning about false prophets and at the same time confident with the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.



I can only think when nonCC's say something like this it is being completely oblivious to the world of Christians outside the Church and the thousands of 'anything and everything goes' variations.

the point is that faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholics (including the Pope)
don't agree with other faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic
on the meaning of their infallible teachings.

i did not say those rejecting Catholics beliefs: but rather those who think they are submitting correctly to their Church's teaching and feel the other Catholics are in error

 

[mica]

People run with the word infallible as if everything a Pope says has to be submitted to but can't to understand the conditions. When he defines something ex cathedra, we can be guaranteed of it's truth. Those moments have been really quite rare.

according to the ccc you must submit to the pope to be saved. does it limit that to just his 'ex cathedra' words? post where it says that.

I'm well aware of the warning about false prophets and at the same time confident with the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

it doesn't mention the rcc. so again you ignore His word for that of men.

I can only think when nonCC's say something like this it is being completely oblivious to the world of Christians outside the Church and the thousands of 'anything and everything goes' variations.

we are Christians outside the rcc. where are any in the rcc? catholics who get saved leave the rcc for a reason.

 

[balshan]

Are commentaries infallible?

Are they God's inspired word?

 

[balshan]

Scripture tells us in Romans 2, "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

Yep I wish that RCs would understand actions speak. The actions of your leaders scream out - the RCC is the bad tree. Rom 2 should not be taken out of context.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

When were we judged by the law before Jesus or after His death and resurrection?

Read on your leaders teach against sexual immorality:

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Hmm messages there and your leaders fail those requirements.

29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

It appears there is a change in understanding here. Don't forget there is no chapters in scripture.

Rom 7: 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written

Hmm continue reading:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin...

This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

RCs show us all the time how they misunderstand scripture because they choose a verse and go yippee it supports what I say. They forget to read on. We do good works because we are made righteous how? It is not because of works.

 

[pilgrim]

" in the sense that the nCCs present it."
What are you talking about???

This is the way nCCs present it.

from Jimmy Akin on EWTN (the lead apolgeticists at Catholic .com)
all quotes from the link below
"Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity"

if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
_________________

read that again
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
----------
continuing

"The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestants idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan salvation by faith alone becomes the Catholic slogan salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone)."

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

We might rephrase the canon:

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.​

And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.6

So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
---------------------

Read that again
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.
So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.

now lay your enlightened OPINION on us

Justification: 'By Faith Alone?' | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

If you agree with Pope Benedict and Jimmy Skin then you are agreeing to the Catholic notion of a "living faith": faith and works together (James 2).

 

[balshan]

Did Joseph obey the law perfectly? Scripture called him a righteous man.

No one is perfect other than Jesus. But there are some things that are intolerable and your leaders are prove of this.

 

[1Thess521]

If you agree with Pope Benedict and Jimmy Skin then you are agreeing to the Catholic notion of a "living faith": faith and works together (James 2).

where did the Pope and Jimmy Akin state a living faith is faith and works together?

 

[mica]

mica said:
did you not read post 474? is it that you don't understand it? or just don't want to understand it?

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Yes, I read it.

obviously you only read it to say what you want it to say.

it says ' to the one who does not work but trusts God'

your 'catholic works' are not needed.

It doesn't say faith alone. The reason it doesn't say faith alone is because faith cannot be alone.

Faith without works is dead.

so what other than faith is needed?

iow, you have nothing - again.

 

[Stella1000]

where did the Pope and Jimmy Akin state a living faith is faith and works together?

Someone just posted this General Audience by Pope Benedict from 2008 that explains it in contrast the deformed interpretations of "faith alone"

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith | BENEDICT XVI

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

www.vatican.va

 

[mica]

Someone just posted this General Audience by Pope Benedict from 2008 that explains it in contrast the deformed interpretations of "faith alone"

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith | BENEDICT XVI

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

www.vatican.va

catholics know nothing of these things. their faith is in the rcc and its men, not in Christ. nor do they know the reality of love without knowing Him.

 

[dingoling.]

obviously you only read it to say what you want it to say.

it says ' to the one who does not work but trusts God'

your 'catholic works' are not needed.


so what other than faith is needed?

iow, you have nothing - again.

Didn't you say we are to listen to what God says and not what man says? So let's listen to what God says. God doesn't say that a person is saved by faith alone and not by works, man says that.

So why are you listening to what man says and not what God says?