Is it only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality?

Eightcrackers said:
Minor correction - it is the method of arriving at the belief.

A belief can be justified and false.
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Correct. I think I used truth in a side stream of the thread, talking to Bob about the difference between beliefs that are justified and true and those which just happen to be true. He sees no meaningful difference. Presumably because for him, his beliefs are true and he has no interest in challenging them by examination of the justification.
 
Temujin said:
Correct. I think I used truth in a side stream of the thread, talking to Bob about the difference between beliefs that are justified and true and those which just happen to be true. He sees no meaningful difference. Presumably because for him, his beliefs are true and he has no interest in challenging them by examination of the justification.
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I think the point was that, once you've got the truth, it no longer matters how you got it.

Which is, of course, inane - you could arrive at true beliefs by rolling dice, or astrology, or haruspicy, but if the method is not reliable, your are prone to acquiring false beliefs, too.
 
Eightcrackers said:
I think the point was that, once you've got the truth, it no longer matters how you got it.

Which is, of course, inane - you could arrive at true beliefs by rolling dice, or astrology, or haruspicy, but if the method is not reliable, your are prone to acquiring false beliefs, too.
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Exactly. And also, having arrived at "truth" you are not interested in examining why or even if, it is truth. It is a recipe for unthinking false beliefs.
 
Temujin said:
Exactly. And also, having arrived at "truth" you are not interested in examining why or even if, it is truth. It is a recipe for unthinking false beliefs.
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What kind of fool would want unthinking beliefs, though...?

"... lean not on your own understanding... "

Oh.
Right.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Meaningless. Truth is an absolute. Whether anybody "Arrives at it" or not is unimportant. It IS what it is.
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But you still can't know "what it is" until you believe it, as that's why belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you.
 
Komodo said:
I think it was Upton Sinclair who said, "it's difficult to get a man to understand something, when his whole Internet schtick depends on his not understanding it."
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Strawman. The belief that "false beliefs" are beliefs in reality is a "false belief". A matter of fact, it's probably the first "false belief".
 
Tercon said:
Strawman. The belief that "false beliefs" are beliefs in reality is a "false belief". A matter of fact, it's probably the first "false belief".
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If they're not beliefs then why are they still called beliefs?

Do you enjoy making yourself look like you don't understand basic English?
 
Temujin said:
Correct. I think I used truth in a side stream of the thread, talking to Bob about the difference between beliefs that are justified and true and those which just happen to be true. He sees no meaningful difference. Presumably because for him, his beliefs are true and he has no interest in challenging them by examination of the justification.
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Eightcrackers said:
I think the point was that, once you've got the truth, it no longer matters how you got it.

Which is, of course, inane - you could arrive at true beliefs by rolling dice, or astrology, or haruspicy, but if the method is not reliable, your are prone to acquiring false beliefs, too.
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Temujin said:
Exactly. And also, having arrived at "truth" you are not interested in examining why or even if, it is truth. It is a recipe for unthinking false beliefs.
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Eightcrackers said:
What kind of fool would want unthinking beliefs, though...?

"... lean not on your own understanding... "

Oh.
Right.
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Utter nonsense. Belief is what makes the truth and reality known and not your conjuring's, because you can only know what you understand in reality.
 
Tercon said:
Utter nonsense. Belief is what makes the truth and reality known and not your conjuring's, because you can only know what you understand in reality.
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Wrong, because beliefs can be wrong. Why do you find it so difficult to understand this?
 
Tercon said:
So, are justified true beliefs beliefs?
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Yes. justified true beliefs are beliefs.
Are all beliefs "justified true beliefs"? No.

Tercon said:
Does justified true beliefs define knowledge?
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Yes.

Tercon said:
Strawman and projection. I didn't redefine 'belief', because justified true beliefs are beliefs in reality.

Now, you on the other hand; you believe that "false beliefs" and unjustified beliefs are beliefs in reality.
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You are redefining when you claim ALL beliefs are justified true beliefs.
I believe that "false beliefs" and "unjustified beliefs" are beliefs in reality. because they are.
 
TeabagSalad said:
Wrong, because beliefs can be wrong. Why do you find it so difficult to understand this?
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I am not referring to "false beliefs" or "wrong" beliefs. So your criticism is a strawman, since I am only referring to justified true beliefs in reality. So, a "false belief" or "wrong" belief is just a unbelief of the truth, because "false beliefs" have no connection with the truth in reality.
But it is still ONLY those beliefs that make the truth and reality known.
 
Tercon said:
I am not referring to "false beliefs" or "wrong" beliefs. So your criticism is a strawman, since I am only referring to justified true beliefs in reality. So, a "false belief" or "wrong" belief is just a unbelief of the truth, because "false beliefs" have no connection with the truth in reality.
But it is still ONLY those beliefs that make the truth and reality known.
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And how do you, as a mere believer, tell the difference between the true beliefs you believe and the false beliefs you believe?
 
Temujin said:
Some people care about other people and look to alleviate their problems. Apparently, that is not the Christian way.
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Alleviating peoples problems for them doesn't do them any good, as they will just keep doing it.
Actually the Christian way is to elevate the truth and reality of God to equip people to deal with their own problems.
 
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Temujin said:
And how do you, as a mere believer, tell the difference between the true beliefs you believe and the false beliefs you believe?
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I personally know the Originator of the truth and reality; He has shows believers how and why the truth is known. And facing the truth and reality for Who it is rather than what it is makes believers apart of His reality, because in reality it is the belief itself that informs the believer of the truth.
 
Tercon said:
Alleviating peoples problems for them doesn't do them any good, as they will just keep doing it.
Actually the Christian way is to all elevate the truth and reality of God to equip people to deal with their own problems.
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Thank you for confirming the myth of Christian charity. "Alleviating people's problems doesn't do them any good". The good news of the Bible reinterpreted for the modern Christian.
 
Tercon said:
I personally know the Originator of the truth and reality; He has shows believers how and why the truth is known. And facing the truth and reality for Who it is rather than what it is makes believers apart of His reality.
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How do you personally "know" this? Do you believe that you "know" this? How do you "know" this is not a false belief?
 
Temujin said:
Thank you for confirming the myth of Christian charity. "Alleviating people's problems doesn't do them any good". The good news of the Bible reinterpreted for the modern Christian.
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No, thank you for confirming that you know nothing about helping people live meaningful productive lives. And why you only know how to be a slave to your government keeper.
 
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