Perfection in this world.

Stella1000 said:
When reference is made to our lives as 'filthy rags' and 'snow covered dunghills' there's a genuine cloud of despair there. No wonder those who view their lives in this way, desire to exist in an alternate self but I can't see that being either spiritually or psychologically healthy. Healing can't happen without facing our 'demons' and letting Christs grace transform us.



You should sit in at a Mass one day and really concentrate on what is being said and done. It is the ultimate meeting with Christ in thanksgiving for what He did for us.
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Our works are filthy rags if not done with faith, that is scriptural fact. But making out one can be perfect when that is not the scriptural understanding of what perfect means, leads to depression and a sense of inbuilt failure. It is not spiritually or psychologically healthy which is what some RCs are promoting. Your leaders have not faced their demons, they are following the demons.

I have sat in a mass more than once and I really concentrated on what was being said and done. Even following what the Latin meant. It is not the ultimate meeting place with Jesus at all.
 
Stella1000 said:
When reference is made to our lives as 'filthy rags' and 'snow covered dunghills' there's a genuine cloud of despair there.
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I really don't understand what problem you have with the expression "snow-covered dunghill" (authentic or not). The purpose of the Gospel is not to inject self-confidence, but to demolish it altogether. We are not saved because we are worthy, but because He is worthy. If you are not a sinner saved by grace alone, you are not saved at all. If the blood of Christ does not cover your sins, you are still accountable for them, and consequently in a state of damnation.
 
Johan said:
It seems that every piece of Scripture involving the cross of Christ as our means of salvation is non-existent to Catholics.
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Don't be ridiculous. We are all aware of the cross of Christ, we all carry it in one way or another.
 
Johan said:
I really don't understand what problem you have with the expression "snow-covered dunghill" (authentic or not). The purpose of the Gospel is not to inject self-confidence, but to demolish it altogether. We are not saved because we are worthy, but because He is worthy. If you are not a sinner saved by grace alone, you are not saved at all. If the blood of Christ does not cover your sins, you are still accountable for them, and consequently in a state of damnation.
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I agree the gospel is not to inject self confidence in the ego, but also not meant to inject self loathing. The blood of Christ doesn't 'cover' our sins. It washes them away.

When we seek Christ in reconciliation for His forgiveness of our sins He renews us and cleanses us from all sin. The Church has encased that sacred miracle in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Can you see how that is so much more than merely believing our sins are just covered?
 
Stella1000 said:
but also not meant to inject self loathing
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no one said this, or even implied it. Scripture teaches we can NOT ever cause ourselves to be worthy of grace. No amount of church rituals, or works will cause us to become worthy in God's eyes. Which is why Jesus died on the cross. Was for our benefit, from start to finish. Jesus' work on the cross paid it all for us.
 
Stella1000 said:
I agree the gospel is not to inject self confidence in the ego, but also not meant to inject self loathing. The blood of Christ doesn't 'cover' our sins. It washes them away.

When we seek Christ in reconciliation for His forgiveness of our sins He renews us and cleanses us from all sin. The Church has encased that sacred miracle in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Can you see how that is so much more than merely believing our sins are just covered?
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David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them." (Rom. 4:6–8)

The Hebrew verb kaphar both means "to atone for" as well as "to cover over." So since you allegedly have this glorious "sacrament," how come that there is so much depravity in your church?
 
Stella1000 said:
When reference is made to our lives as 'filthy rags' and 'snow covered dunghill there's a genuine cloud of despair there. No wonder those who view their lives in this way, desire to exist in an alternate self but I can't see that being either spiritually or psychologically healthy. Healing can't happen without facing our 'demons' and letting Christs grace transform us.



You should sit in at a Mass one day and really concentrate on what is being said and done. It is the ultimate meeting with Christ in thanksgiving for what He did for us.
Click to expand...
Well that we are covered dunghills is a fact. And anything done by man's righteousness are just filthy rags. God is described and called Holy more than anything else in scripture. What man thinks is that God is on our level and we attempt to approach Him on our level. But God totally HATES sin, and cannot even look upon sin. That is what prompted Jesus to cry out " My God My God why have you forsaken Me", when God turned His back on Him because God could not look at His Son when He became sin for us. Men are total wretches compared to a Holy Righteous God. Now you may want to feel good about that, but I can't. And as far as dunghills, that is the best description of man there is. And unless we come to Christ and trust what He did on the cross, and have Him impute His righteousness to us, we will ever be nothing but a dunghill to God. There is no other way to come to a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. If for a split second you think that you can appear before God any other way, then God will say " depart from me, I never knew you"! I would much more have my self esteem suffer for a little while than spend eternity in the flames of hell. Call upon Jesus today in emptiness of yourself and be healed.
 
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Johan said:
If you were aware of the cross of Christ, you would not ridicule the notion of our sins being covered by the blood of Christ. Because that is very purpose for which He died: to take our sins upon Himself and nail them to the cross.
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How and when did I ever ridicule the notion that our sins are covered by the blood of Christ? I agree wholeheartedly with that truth. Recognizing His death (sacrifice) and resurrection is the focal point of our worship in the Holy Mass.
 
Johan said:
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them." (Rom. 4:6–8)

The Hebrew verb kaphar both means "to atone for" as well as "to cover over." So since you allegedly have this glorious "sacrament," how come that there is so much depravity in your church?
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Jesus atoning sacrifice is much, much more than the atoning sacrifice of Judaism otherwise why would He have been sent to do what He did.

There's going to be evil trying to break Gods people. That's just how the devil works. Luther is supposed to have said this "where God builds His Church, the devil will build a chapel". It means that satan is after the holy and good to turn them away.

I can only think that clergy who commit these horrendous crimes and sins have entered into that chapel and the devil affords them occult secrecy to avoid detection for so long.
 
Stella1000 said:
Jesus atoning sacrifice is much, much more than the atoning sacrifice of Judaism otherwise why would He have been sent to do what He did.
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The sacrifices of Judaism prefigured the cross of Christ, and for that reason Paul employed this passage in the Psalms in his own discussion about justification by faith.
Stella1000 said:
There's going to be evil trying to break Gods people. That's just how the devil works. Luther is supposed to have said this "where God builds His Church, the devil will build a chapel". It means that satan is after the holy and good to turn them away.
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If they are turned away, they are not so "holy and good" after all.
Stella1000 said:
I can only think that clergy who commit these horrendous crimes and sins have entered into that chapel and the devil affords them occult secrecy to avoid detection for so long.
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Here you go again, blaming the evil works of man on the devil. Why not rather concede that man is evil, in fact, not less evil than the adversary?
 
bluedog1us said:
Well that we are covered dunghills is a fact. And anything done by man's righteousness are just filthy rags. God is described and called Holy more than anything else in scripture. What man thinks is that God is on our level and we attempt to approach Him on our level. But God totally HATES sin, and cannot even look upon sin. That is what prompted Jesus to cry out " My God My God why have you forsaken Me", when God turned His back on Him because God could not look at His Son when He became sin for us. Men are total wretches compared to a Holy Righteous God. Now you may want to feel good about that, but I can't. And as far as dunghills, that is the best description of man there is. And unless we come to Christ and trust what He did on the cross, and have Him impute His righteousness to us, we will ever be nothing but a dunghill to God. There is no other way to come to a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. If for a split second you think that you can appear before God any other way, then God will say " depart from me, I never knew you"! I would much more have my self esteem suffer for a little while than spend eternity in the flames of hell. Call upon Jesus today in emptiness of yourself and be healed.
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There is another way to appearing before God with either a suffering self esteem or an exalted self righteousness. It's in the state of humility. Humility knows it's human limitations and dependence on God. It doesn't think of itself as better and certainly doesn't view others as less. That was the theme of this weekends gospel actually ie Luke 14. Father quoted CS Lewis... "True Humility Is Not Thinking Less of Yourself, It's Thinking of Yourself Less". So when we appear before God it is having done our best and trusting in His mercy rather than always trying to assess how righteous we are compared to the next man.
 
Johan said:
Here you go again, blaming the evil works of man on the devil. Why not rather concede that man is evil, in fact, not less evil than the adversary?
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Genesis doesn't record evil being in humankind until the devil tempted Adam and Eve to be disobedient.
 
Stella1000 said:
Genesis doesn't record evil being in humankind until the devil tempted Adam and Eve to be disobedient.
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But fallen man is evil, as the Bible makes abundantly clear.

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. (Gen. 6:5)

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (Matt. 7:11)

There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)
 
Misfit said:
How and when did I ever ridicule the notion that our sins are covered by the blood of Christ? I agree wholeheartedly with that truth. Recognizing His death (sacrifice) and resurrection is the focal point of our worship in the Holy Mass.
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catholics like to claim that, but their hearts understand nothing about the reality of His death and resurrection. I've been to Mass many, many times in my life and His death and resurrection was never the focal point of it.
 
mica said:
catholics like to claim that, but their hearts understand nothing about the reality of His death and resurrection.
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You know nothing about what is inside the heart of the individual person, only God knows that.

mica said:
I've been to Mass many, many times in my life and His death and resurrection was never the focal point of it.
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His death and resurrection are always the focal point of the Holy Mass, unlike your worship service where the pulpit takes center stage.
 
Stella1000 said:
There is another way to appearing before God with either a suffering self esteem or an exalted self righteousness. It's in the state of humility. Humility knows it's human limitations and dependence on God. It doesn't think of itself as better and certainly doesn't view others as less. That was the theme of this weekends gospel actually ie Luke 14. Father quoted CS Lewis... "True Humility Is Not Thinking Less of Yourself, It's Thinking of Yourself Less". So when we appear before God it is having done our best and trusting in His mercy rather than always trying to assess how righteous we are compared to the next man.
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I have yet to know a true Christian to think himself better or more righteous than anyone else. What pleases God is a broken and contrite spirit. That is what is needed before a Holy God. Not saying "I have done my best Lord, now You have to do the rest, or at least help me do the rest". Jesus did it ALL on the cross. And that is why we come to God with NOTHING in our hand except Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Anything else we bring to Him are filthy rags! As per Isaiah 64:6 That mentioned there are not our evil deeds but our most righteous and good deeds and thoughts. Going to Him and thinking our works of righteousness plus what He did will really be great because we are really trying will only warrant an "I never knew you", from the Lord".
 
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