When does one's Predestination start?

Synergy said:
I'm not asking for every single verse to contain every word. I'm just asking for ONE Bible verse that declares that we are predestined to be saved. Just one and no one has been able to deliver that one single verse.
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For a sinner to be conformed to the image of the Son, is to be saved.Rom8:29
 
Howie said:
Salvation encompasses everything in Eph 1, IMO.
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salvation from sin ?

if so how ?

what does it mean to go from being a sinner to a saint, from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ, righteousness ?

what difference does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit make in a believer ?

what difference did is make in the disciples pre and post Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit ?

please education me on this......................................

I'm sure you have years of experience and bible knowledge on this most important topic to share with the group

hope this helps !!!
 
Howie said:
Ask your pastor.
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I'm asking you. Why are you deflecting ?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
 
Chalcedon said:
I'm asking you. Why are you deflecting ?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
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I'm not that interested in a discussion with you. I'll continue praying for you, though.
 
Chalcedon said:
salvation from sin ?

if so how ?

what does it mean to go from being a sinner to a saint, from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ, righteousness ?

what difference does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit make in a believer ?

what difference did is make in the disciples pre and post Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit ?

please education me on this......................................

I'm sure you have years of experience and bible knowledge on this most important topic to share with the group

hope this helps !!!
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I would not hold my breath. I've noticed a strong tendency among many Calvinists (not all) to be very flippant with Biblical terms. They just toss them around as if they own them. Well they don't. They need to deal with that fact.
 
Howie said:
Exactly, you're asking..
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1 Peter 3:15

have you ever read that passage ?

what does it mean ?

have you ever applied it to your life ?

can you give a testimony on how ?

thanks !

I look forward to your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:15.
 
Synergy said:
I would not hold my breath. I've noticed a strong tendency among many Calvinists (not all) to be very flippant with Biblical terms. They just toss them around as if they own them. Well they don't. They need to deal with that fact.
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it seems to be a stumbling block of sorts very interesting to say the least.
 
Chalcedon said:
salvation from sin ?

if so how ?

what does it mean to go from being a sinner to a saint, from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ, righteousness ?

what difference does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit make in a believer ?
Click to expand...

Thank you for proving you don't know the answers.
Maybe you should stop trying to be our "teacher"...
 
Chalcedon said:
salvation from sin ?

if so how ?

what does it mean to go from being a sinner to a saint, from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ, righteousness ?

what difference does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit make in a believer ?

what difference did is make in the disciples pre and post Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit ?

please education me on this......................................

I'm sure you have years of experience and bible knowledge on this most important topic to share with the group

hope this helps !!!
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go figure it stumped them
 
Alexander the adequate said:
I suppose you can state it the way you are choosing. But I would note I think we should specify the difference between those ideas that are in effect elements of salvation, and those which are benefits of salvation. Both could be spoken of as accompanying, but not as "co-occuring"
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So far, so good.
Alexander the adequate said:
For instance: our receiving our inheritance, accompanies salvation but does not co-occur in time with it,
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Not quite.

Some of our inheritance is NOW manifest in our salvation and other aspects are not. For example, we are NOW royal priests. We are NOW members of God's own separate and sacred (holy) nation. We are NOW members of the nation of priests God promised a long, long time ago as the inheritance of His promise(s). We are NOW the children of promise and not flesh or bloodline. We NOW have the right to become the sons (and daughters) of God's will and not the will of men (John 1:13).

Many aspects of our salvation are already accomplished conditions, currently existing and ongoing conditions, and yet to be realized conditions. Inheritance is not the only aspect where this is true. We were justified by Christ but we are also justified by faith and we will be justified when we stand before the throne. We were sanctified by the blood and are being sanctified by th word and the Spirit and we will be sanctified once and for all on the other side of resurrection.

These

things

were

predestined.


ALL of it, not just one part. Not properly discriminating the distinctions between correlation and causation is just one of many ways we screw up our understanding of salvation. Thinking only temporally is another. That's one of the reasons I earlier noted the fact of God's transcendence. God does not exist within time and space. What He destined is not time dependent for Him. It is for us because we live solely within the bounds of time and space, cause and effect, and volitional agency of BOTH Creator and creature. The neglect in part or whole of any of these aspects leads to bad soteriology, and I have cited only a small number of ways this goes awry.


Every single one of us should understand the effect of titling a discussion board "Arminianism and Calvinism," because the title has a dichotomizing and often polarizing effect that we see manifested every day in every op throughout the entire board. Why don't forums title the board "Soteriology"? Why don't the title the board "Monergism and Synergism"? Either one would be better and more beneficial presuppositionally than "Arminianism and Calvinism." We become prisoners of our own biases. Once we step outside of the human-made constructs and start with and stick with scripture predestination takes on aspects that reach far beyond the stereotyped and often cliched response of Arminianists and Calvinists (or Augustine, Luther, Wesley, White, Olson, Flowers, etc.). All three of those I just mentioned makes mistakes in the areas I've noted in this thread.


Correlation is not causation. Correlation is not serial, nor sequential, either. We'd all do well not to read causation, and sequence into scripture where none is actually stated.
 
HealTheLand said:
because Sin brings death. therefore, to believe on perfection / life (Jesus Christ) is to believe / follow / want to become -- more perfected / full of Life.

if you / we do not pick up our cross (es), we are not worthy of Him (not worthy of life / are not overcoming death) .........

but / however......... God is wanting to / helping Any who have / or are turning to Him / believing -- in Him (Life , lack of Sin) also = believing in / on His Son (we walk by Faith / anything not done in faith -- is Sin = death / missing each Mark, on the Way [of Christ] - to Life).

these are Complicated concepts / truths though, that one must "Work out" -- in themselves (the temple of God) -- with God's help (of course), and / also with many Helps in life that God 'sends' / 'Shows', and with the help of other Believers.
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Non sequitur
 
Synergy said:
2Co 6:2 (For He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation, I helped you;" Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.)
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Nice prooftext.

Nice abusive proof-text of scripture that does NOT prove the earlier claim, "the Bible declares that we are saved 'in Christ' within temporal time.," because 1) the context of the verse was the urgency of evangelizing, 2) the verse has Old Testament prophetic force, and 3) there are also MANY verses that speak our having been saved (past-tense), or being saved (ongoing current condition), and the future in which we will be saved. For example, were I to pit 2 Cor. 6:2 against, say, 1 Cor. 15:2 we'd not only have a contradiction between two verses, we'd have a contradiction by the same guy in two letters to the same audience!

That's not a proper reading of scripture.

So, either amend the prior statement, "the Bible declares that we are saved 'in Christ, within temporal time," to more accurately reflect the WHOLE of scripture, or take another attempt at proving the statement made as written. Being "in Christ" is not a temporal condition, and in terms of this op's topic there are correlated and correlated conditions that come with and sequentially occur as conditions of being in Christ. All of them decided before time began.
 
Chalcedon said:
I'm asking you. Why are you deflecting ?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
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So you are unaware of the gospel?
That's very telling.
 
Synergy said:
I'm the one who cited the verses saying that good works are preordained. Your problem is that you cannot use those verse for predestination because good works are not predestined for inheritance, adoption, and conformity to Christ.
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1) I do not have a problem and I will ask you not to make this personal, and not to make this discusion personally problem-focused. I will report your posts and exit the exchange if this continues. Just say, "There is a problem using works to explain predestination because..........." and leave the poster out of the commentary. Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

2) That's factually incorrect. I just got done citing a verse that predicated the works of the already-saved on the future aspects of their already existing salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Those people are already "brothers and sisters." They are already saved. Paul explicitly states, "by which you also ARE saved." But he also predicates that condition on an "if." IF the already saved brother or sister holds firmly s/he is saved...... unless the belief is a vain belief. I suspect you an I will agree the latter, the brother or sister whose belief is "vain" isn't really a brother or sister and they aren't actually saved (but maybe we won't agree). The salient point is this already existing condition of salvation is an ongoing stated that is conditional and predicated on many correlates and causes found throughout scripture.

Earlier in the very same letter Paul cited another present/future example, and this one specifically related to works.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.


There are a more than a dozen, possibly more than a score or three of these verses in scripture and they should not be pitted against one another. They should be read, considered, and accepted as a whole... AND those who teach scripture selectively should have their views treated accordingly.
Synergy said:
I'm the one who cited the verses saying that good works are preordained..... you cannot use those verse for predestination because good works are not predestined for inheritance, adoption, and conformity to Christ.
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Good works are preordained but good works are not predestined for inheritance.


Might want to better sort that our or better clarify it because as written the statement is self-contradictory and thereby self-refuting.
 
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