1 John 5:7-8 Johannine Comma - Tertullian Adversus Praxeas 25.1

You do not understand the basics, the Old Latin line were manuscripts passed down from c. AD 200. Whether the actual date of composition is AD 400 or 600.
No. You don't understand. Vetus Latina ("Old Latin" in Latin), also known as Vetus Itala ("Old Italian"), Itala ("Italian")[note 1] and Old Italic, is the collective name given to the Latin translations of biblical texts (both Old Testament and New Testament) that preceded the Vulgate (the Latin translation produced by Jerome in the late 4th century). (source)

As such it doesn't automatically date to 2nd century AD. It can date up to end of 4th century AD, and well beyond then, especially if Spanish or African.
 
1 Peter 1:11 (AV)
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,
and the glory that should follow.

Philippians 1:19 (AV)
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer,
and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Look at the actual baptisms as well.

Acts 2:38 (AV)
Then Peter said unto them,
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:16 (AV)
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them:
only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 19:4-5 (AV)
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,
saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,
that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this,
they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So it is easy to see the name referred to here:

Matthew 28:19 (AV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Jesus Christ isn't the name of the Father.
 
No. You don't understand. Vetus Latina ("Old Latin" in Latin), also known as Vetus Itala ("Old Italian"), Itala ("Italian")[note 1] and Old Italic, is the collective name given to the Latin translations of biblical texts (both Old Testament and New Testament) that preceded the Vulgate (the Latin translation produced by Jerome in the late 4th century). (source) As such it doesn't automatically date to 2nd century AD. It can date up to end of 4th century AD, and well beyond then, especially if Spanish or African.

True, but it is likely back to the 2nd and 3rd century, and even if 4th it shows you that "tres unum sunt" was an entirely appropriate early Latin translation text, dismantling your Tertullian theory.
 
True, but it is likely back to the 2nd and 3rd century, and even if 4th it shows you that "tres unum sunt" was an entirely appropriate early Latin translation text, dismantling your Tertullian theory.
The 484AD account of the Vandal persecutions by Victor of Vita contains numerous citations of the Old Latin scriptures in the extant manuscripts handed down, as well as Vulgate renderings, presumably inserted by a later copyist/revisionist. NB: Moorhead the translator of the Vandal persecutions by Victor of Vita imputes the Johannine Comma reference in said work to a later interpolation. See also this WWW site for more comment.

So naively dating all "old Latin" to 2nd century AD is utterly perverse. (The Codex Fr(e)isingensis, written by Sigihard in Freising circa 902-906, was copied from Codex Vindobonensis (V), which itself was written in Weissenburg by four scribes in the last third of the 9th century, with some readings from Codex Palatinus, written in Weissenburg circa 870 (copied from V) by the same four scribes, with the introduction of some Bavarian forms. [source].

The earliest I have seen anyone attempt to date the text of Codex Fr(e)isingensis is circa 500AD.

I fear once again you are completely out of your depth on this subject, wildly speculating...
 
Last edited:
He disappeared sharply after challenging on his "Persons is a dubious translation, since it implies all sorts of doctrinal baggage that does not fit the word or the Tertullian usage."

How does Tertullian use "persona" and "personae" as a weapon against (key word "against") his One-ness opponent Steven?
 
He disappeared sharply after challenging on his "Persons is a dubious translation, since it implies all sorts of doctrinal baggage that does not fit the word or the Tertullian usage."

How does Tertullian use "persona" and "personae" as a weapon against (key word "against") his One-ness opponent Steven?
My thoughts: from the Latin, persona means:
  1. character
  2. mask
  3. personality
I think I was correct in equating it to the Greek prosopon ("self-manifestation/face"). Prosopon is a flexible word, and can be used of individual men and of all men collectively. It may also be used figuratively and of God. Due to the wide conceptual divergence, it may be meaningless to constrast the prosopon of "God" with the prosopon of an individual man, except in very general terms of favour/emnity etc.

According to Bill Mounce a late usage of prosopon can be used in a (presumably secondary) sense to infer a "person, individual." 2 Cor. 1:11.

It's not easy to see what other latin word could have been used by Tertullian apart from persona (Latin is not a very philosophical language). The biblical shows the Father Son and Holy Spirit are individually characterizable and distinguishable. Yet the holy three also present one divine persona/prosopon (i.e. that of heaven) cf. Deut 6:4. Yet in a different sense, they present three persona/prosopon according to their economies. Thus Christ as man has his own persona/prosopon analogous to that of an individual man. 2Co 4:6.

I think Tertullian should be allowed leeway as catering to the biblical usage of persona/prosopon; but OTOH the biblical usage is variable as between heaven and earth and even within the jurisdiction of earth (i.e. primary/secondary/figurative senses). This is where his philosophical enterprise breaks down because it's not easy to know exactly what he is referring to. He has a problem in fixing three prospons/personas in heaven, unless alluding to divine economy, because it is alien to scripture to speak in such language, where heaven historically presents only a single prospon/persona cf. Deut 6:4.

Not sure Steven should have bowed out. There is plenty of discussion to be had.
 
The 484AD account of the Vandal persecutions by Victor of Vita contains numerous citations of the Old Latin scriptures in the extant manuscripts handed down, as well as Vulgate renderings, presumably inserted by a later copyist/revisionist. NB: Moorhead the translator of the Vandal persecutions by Victor of Vita imputes the Johannine Comma reference in said work to a later interpolation. See also this WWW site for more comment.

Nonsense, Moorhead says no such thing.

And by AD 484 you can have the beginning of a text that includes some Vulgate wording, Jerome's Gospel had been in circulation for 100 years, but no indication is given for that in terms of the heavenly witnesses.

Plus afaik, there is no manuscript variation of substance on the heavenly witnesses section, working against any theory of update or your private nonsense theory of an interpolation.

And note that I did not use the confession of faith at Carthage as evidence for the dismantling your Tertullian linguistics theory. Rebaptism and the Speculum are key to putting that one to rest.
 
Last edited:
Not sure Steven should have bowed out. There is plenty of discussion to be had.

Never bowed out, I was considering a response, but I do not find TNC ever really interested in conversation and learning. Posturing is his motif. Tries to avoid giving his own analysis, scampering around for gotcha's. And on Tertullian he has the special confusion of his theory that every time Tertullian uses paraclete he is thinking of charis-mania.

Your answer looks fine, in terms of prospons/personas, putting aside using Bill Mounce and your speculations. You seem to agree with my point that modern translations that simply translate personae as persons are essentially translating to doctrine.
 
Last edited:
..... every time Tertullian uses paraclete he is thinking of charis-mania.
May be Tertullian was under a mental delusion that he was speaking the very thoughts of the Holy Spirit, like Montanus, Priscilla and Maximilla.

Tertullian was by no means the first religious philosopher (he being proceded by the likes of Melito and Sabellius etc). I suppose in one sense, he can be credited with putting in a very necessary check on the Sabellian tendency, which had in going one step further than Melito, essentially replaced the Father by the Son as the only true God. Thus also, many modern Sabellians see Jesus as God, either to the exclusion of the Father, or else with only token acknowledgement of the Father's separate existence: cf. Melito in Pascha, who has but one reference to Jesus sitting at the Father's right hand at the very end of a lengthy and seemingly lopsided discourse extolling Christ as "wearing the Father" and as if the only true God. Clearly this doesn't reflect apostolic discourse: Jesus says that the Father is the only "true God" in John 17:3 and this is how the apostles also denote the Father.

Yet in another sense, Tertullian went badly astray in lacking the temerity to attack the introduction of "Trinitarian" novelties into theological discourse, which, if it emerged into the open at Nicea with the "homoousios," had long been making inroads into theological discourse amongst the ECFs with the misapplication of terms such as "God" and "begotten" to disparate heavenly entities in order to align Greek religion with Hebrew religion.

The only allowable religious philosophy is that akin to John & Paul, in 1 John and Hebrews, neither of whom use novelties like "substance" - "hypostasis" & "logos" being the limit of the philosophical terms; where "God" (akin to YHWH) remains a term reserved to the Father alone in their NT diction.

Your answer looks fine, in terms of prospons/personas, putting aside using Bill Mounce and your speculations.
I think Bill Mounce has a valid point, as prosopon is being used to refer to indivduals in 2 Cor. 1:11.

You seem to agree with my point that modern translations that simply translate personae as persons are essentially translating to doctrine.
The word "person" carries the inference of autonomy by reason of a distinct mental facility and independent power over will. That is hardly contestable of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and in one sense does justice to the biblical revelation. However as you suggest there is a doctrinal baggage attached to "person" which lies in the unavoidable anthropomorphism of the divine, and in the implication of a polytheist strand, and hence the necessity to restrain it. However it may be better just to acknowledge that "person" is only of limited application to the divine, as entailing unavoidable anthropomorphism.

The doctrinal issues start with how the votaries of three "divine persons" avoid polytheism. "The Three are One [something]" (per Tertullian and the Comma) is the usual source of reliance. "Something" then becomes subject to doctrinal definition. In practice it is seen to extend to "God", and/or "substance", and / or "person" (in the case of Sabellians). Yet each such definition of "something" causes problems.

If the Comma (& Tertullian) be discounted, "the Three are One [something]" is seen to be foreign to scripture. We only have "the three are in agreement" in 1 John 5:8. Deut 6:4 never mentions the "three." Going back to the language of Comma-less scripture may be the only answer.
 
Last edited:
..... where "God" (akin to YHWH) remains a term reserved to the Father alone in their NT diction.
NB: I am using God/Theos in the personal "Father" sense as used by Jesus (as contrasted with the anarthrous doctrinal sense of the Word on the throne being invested with the properties and glory of God the Father, cf. John 1:1c).
 
Last edited:
The word "person" carries the inference of autonomy by reason of a distinct mental facility and independent power over will. That is hardly contestable of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and in one sense does justice to the biblical revelation. However as you suggest there is a doctrinal baggage attached to "person" which lies in the unavoidable anthropomorphism of the divine, and in the implication of a polytheist strand, and hence the necessity to restrain it. However it may be better just to acknowledge that "person" is only of limited application to the divine, as entailing unavoidable anthropomorphism.

Tertullian's argument in Chapter 25.1 is chiefly grammatical.

Compare the same kind of (and qualifying/predicative) argument in Chapter 22.10-11 (See, Latin from Evans, and the English of Holmes gives the best sense).

He appealing to grammatical gender.

Sound familiar?

Neuter gender vs masculine gender.

Confirmed by his negation of the numeric aspect in the following sentence (i.e. context):

"non ad numeri singularitatem"

"not by the singularity of the number(s)".

He's actually legitamatizing (by a grammatical gender appeal) the actual addition of the grammatically implied words in brackets below, which are absolutely necessary in English translation for his argument to make any sense:

"How these three [persons/male identities] are one [thing], not one [person/a single male identity]".​

His grammatical argument would be stripped of all it's force (all the subtlety would be missed), and made completely null and void (left looking absolutely stupid) in English without some kind of supplementary words being added in brackets for the translation.

Otherwise you end up with the stupendously stupid translation:

"How these three are one, not one".

Which makes Tertullian look like a proper twit! Which he's not (heretical yes, but certainly not stupid).

[Not finished - to be qualified and expanded on in further post's to follow, so don't jump to any conclusions before I write more]
 
Last edited:
NB: I am using God/Theos in the personal "Father" sense as used by Jesus (as contrasted with the anarthrous doctrinal sense of the Word on the throne being invested with the properties and glory of God the Father, cf. John 1:1c).

You can see then, why μοναρχία "Monarchy", which Tertullian defined as "the rule of One single person" was an integral part of his argumentation against Praxeas.

Tertullian of Carthage (circa.145-225 C.E.)

"Adversus Praxean"

Alexander Souter Translation 1920

Chapter 3:2


"at ego, si quid utriusque linguae praecerpsi, monarchiam nihil aliud significare scio quam singulare et unicum imperium : non tamen praescribere monarchiam ideo quia unius sit eum cuius sit aut filium non habere aut ipsum se sibi filium fecisse
aut monarchiam suam non per quos velit administrare."

“But I, if I have culled any knowledge of both languages, know that [μοναρχία] “monarchy” means nothing else but the rule of One single Person; but that monarchy, nevertheless, does not for the reason that it belongs to One, lay it down that He to whom it belongs should either not have a son or should have made His very Self into a son for Himself, or should not
manage
His monarchy through whom He will...”
Tertullian was developing and proposing a theory about the Father's rule that simultaneously was trying to avoid the pitfalls of Di{2}theism (two gods), Tri{3}theism (three gods), and Mon{1}archian Modalism (one person wearing three theatre masks).

Of course, there were competing theories about this μοναρχία "Monarchy" (as seen in "Against Praxeas").
 
Two key words/terms in Tertullian's argumentation were μοναρχία "monarchy", "the rule of/by One single person", and the familial term οἰκονομίαν, denoting a system of household management or administration (i.e. involving the headship principle, with the Father as the Head).
 
Two key words/terms in Tertullian's argumentation were μοναρχία "monarchy", "the rule of/by One single person", and the familial term οἰκονομίαν, denoting a system of household management or administration (i.e. involving the headship principle, with the Father as the Head).

Do you think Tertullian got this monarchian emphasis from the Montanist charis-mania?
 
He says it was in reaction to the Monarchian Oneness-mania (cf. Adv. Prax. Chapter 3).
In reaction to the simplistic ill thought out theories and interpretations of Praxeas chiefly.

So how do you determine when Tertullian is a Montanist absurdist vs. when you feel he is a solid exegete?

===============================

You used to have a similar view to cjab.
If I remember, you even wanted him to think that Montanus was the Paraclete in Against Praxeas 25.

May be Tertullian was under a mental delusion that he was speaking the very thoughts of the Holy Spirit, like Montanus, Priscilla and Maximilla.
 
Last edited:
(The Codex Fr(e)isingensis, written by Sigihard in Freising circa 902-906, was copied from Codex Vindobonensis (V), which itself was written in Weissenburg by four scribes in the last third of the 9th century, with some readings from Codex Palatinus, written in Weissenburg circa 870 (copied from V) by the same four scribes, with the introduction of some Bavarian forms. [source]. ... I fear once again you are completely out of your depth on this subject, wildly speculating...

It looks like you are completely out of your depth on this subject.

This Munich ms. with the Evangelienbuch poem is not related to the Freisinger Fragment with the heavenly witnesses verse.
 
Back
Top