What is the gospel?

Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
I found the following post in the same website LeatherNeck used in his bashing of Calvinism, and I found it very telling:

"Concerning election, one of the heresies of Calvinism is that God doesn't want all men to be saved but rather only wishes a variety of men be saved, as He has chosen in puppet-like fashion. According to their doctrines, when they preach the gospel they cannot say that "God loves you and wants you to have eternal life". In fact under Calvinism they should say, "God may hate you and may have predestined you to eternal damnation and there's nothing that can be done about it." For example Mark Driscoll co-founder of the Acts 29 Calvinist organization speaking for God says, "God looks down and says 'I hate you, you are my enemy, and I will crush you" Funny how the Bible commands us to love our enemies without prejudice while Calvinists view that same God as hating people prejudicially. Indeed under Calvinism God prejudges people before they are even born. Not suprising [sic] how Calvinists often turn out, given their concepts of God."

So my first comment is to note how uncharitably the author tries to represent the Calvinist view. I was going to ask if people could tell from Ray Comfort's quote whether he was a Calvinist or an Arminian. Certainly not from how he described both views, since he described them both in a charitable way. There's no mistaking how the above author holds his views, with the way he speaks of each.

The second thing that came to mind was that in spite of the author trying to make Calvinism sound as evil as possible, he actually made Calvinism sound MORE BIBLICAL than the Arminian view!

"God may hate you and may have predestined you to eternal damnation and there's nothing that can be done about it."

What is the NEED for the gospel? Why do we talk about being "saved"? What are we being "saved" from?! In order to understand why the "gospel" ("good news") is actually good news, we first need to understand the "bad news", and why we are even in NEED of "being saved" in the first place.

That's why the Law (Lev., Deut.) was given before the gospel (Matt-John).
That's why Paul presents the law and sin (Rom. 1-3) before God's grace (Rom. 4-5).
That's why Ray Comfort confronts unbelievers with the Ten Commandments, before the cross of Christ.

Back to the Arminian presentation:

"God loves you and wants you to have eternal life."

Well, let's first not overlook the inconvenient fact that Jesus NEVER taught us to present the gospel as, "God loves you", or "God WANTS you to have eternal life". Never.

Secondly, suppose you tell a stranger that. "God loves you". Okay, great! No skin off my nose. Oh, God wants me to believe? Why? Is God trying to coerce me with His love? If God loves me as I am, why do I need to change? If God really WANTS me to have eternal life, why doesn't He just give it to me, if he TRULY "wants" me to have it?

1Cor. 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

Okay... If love "does not insist on its own way", why is God trying to tell me what to do? Didn't you just tell me that God loves me?!

God doesn't give us laws and commandments out of "love" for us, He gives them to us because of our OBLIGATION to obey them.

Now let's go back to the "Calvinist" version:

"God may hate you and may have predestined you to eternal damnation and there's nothing that can be done about it."

Yes, we need to first know and understand that God hates us, because we are sinners, and have sinned against Him:

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ps. 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

And it is the purpose of the Law, to convict us of our sin:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

And only then can we be led to the mercy seat of Christ:

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The publican knew he was a sinner, and couldn't even bear to look God in the eye, since he knew he was deserving of nothing but condemnation for his sins. He was brought to his knees, and did the only thing he could, beg God for mercy.

C.S. Lewis wonderfully worded how the law makes us understand our true bankrupt nature, and that we are corrupt sinners, and can do nothing to save ourselves, we are dependent on the mercy of God for that. And since it is mercy, it cannot be demanded. It has to be FREELY given, only to whom God desires to give it.
 
When someone tells me as a Calvinist I should say to the Lost, 'God may not Love you'; I take a position that God is Providential and will direct my steps. I assume that those I Witness to, are Elect; even if I never see a Convert. One sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I could just be scratching the surface for someone else; and the Word of God doesn't return to him void...

Since God Hates all Evil doers, and All do Evil; I can say God Loves you since God has love for All; even if it's a common love and a common hate...

Can a Non-Calvinist tell someone God hates them, even though God is Love?
 
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ReverendRV said:
Since God Hates all Evil doers, and All do Evil; I can say God Loves you since God has love for All; even if it's a common love and a common hate...
Click to expand...

Yes, God has a common love, one of the main ones being not smiting down sinners immediately after their first sin. He gives them spouses, children, wonderful jobs, provides for them, etc. etc.

If you tell them God loves them, and do it sincerely, I don't see too much of a problem with it. Even if they convert as Arminians, many continue into understanding Biblical Calvinism.
 
We all should realize that the devil likes the Fight...

Jesus likes the Fight? Sure; if we are indeed Heretics...

But if we're not, he Hates it; since he hates All Evil doers...
 
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I guess I can continue to address some of the other "criticisms" found in this website...

"A Puppet theology - Calvinist denial of Free Will​

Under Calvinism people are essentially puppets. Calvinism teaches, "Total Depravity without free will permanently due to divine sovereignty" (wikipedia) It's a hard form of theological determinism. (wikipedia) "Perhaps the most prominent theologian to espouse hard theological determinism was John Calvin" ... " It claims that free will does not exist, and God has absolute control over a person's actions."

Of course, here is the standard and false criticism of "Calvinism makes men puppets". This is a discussion about men's wills. There are three positions to take on the status of the will:

1) "free will"
2) "enslaved will"
3) "no will".

The only Biblical one is "enslaved will" (John 8:34, Rom. 6:16-18), which is the Calvinist view. The Arminian view of "free will" is unBiblical, and we see that Calvinsts do NOT hold to the straw-man of "puppets" (ie. "no will").

Not only do we see that "enslaved will" is Biblical, and "free will" is not, we also see many other passages which deny "free will", by way of "inability" (John 3:3, 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.), and "deadness in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13)

"To the Calvinist for people to do anything from their free will takes away God's sovereignty, and thus they deny free will."

This is a false straw-man. We do not deny free will based on any "rationalization", we deny free-will because it is UNBIBLICAL, and in fact the opposite (enslaved will) is true. The author clearly doesn't want to admit any Biblical basis for our beliefs.

"Their 'god' is incapable of creating free will creatures. He just doesn't have the capacity to do so."

This author is very confused. "Did not" does NOT mean, "cannot". God can do all things, He could have given us "free will", but the FACT of the matter is that He CHOSE not to. But this author is clearly not interested in truth and honesty, but only wants to try to paint Calvinists as evil and moronic as he can (he even admits this further below).

I "have not" gone to Mount Rushmore.
That does not mean I "cannot" go.
It only means I have "chosen" (as of yet) not to go.

"Now because their 'god' is unjust, they of course have no problem with the idea of god imputing guilt to these puppets and throwing them into hell."

Our God is not "unjust".
In fact, it is only BECAUSE of God's "justice" that hell exists at all, since hell is the JUST punishment for sinners.

"Truly the god of Calvinism is a sadistic monster."

Nothing but pure, insulting, worthless emotionalistic ad hominem.

"Under Calvinism people cannot but sin."

Under the BIBLE, too:

1Kings 8:46 “ ... —for there is no one who does not sin— ...
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

You'd think that if "free will" were true, there would be at least ONE person in all the billions and billions of people who have lived who would have "free will" chosen to obey it, don't you think?

"They have no choice but to sin. And where there is only one choice that is the same as saying there is no choice."

But there ARE "choices".
Yet everyone has CHOSEN to sin.
We CHOSE to sin, with those "wills" you think we don't have.

"The god of Calvinism is rather peculiar."

Did you notice this? "Their god", "the god of Calvinism". Looks like we got kicked out of heaven again!

"He speaks in the imperative, giving lots of commands to his puppets who apparently have no ability with which to act upon such commands. And then he holds them accountable for what they have done or failed to do."

I get the feeling that many non-Calvinists don't understand the purpose of the Law. The Law was not given as a resource by which we could be saved. The Law was given precisely to CONVICT us of our "inability" (that you don't think exists, John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14), and to bring us to our knees begging for mercy:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

"The god of Calvinism is pretty much nuts."

"The god of Calvinism". Kicked out of heaven again!

"But it would seem the Calvinist is likewise nuts. Have they taken any thought to the implications of their doctrines? Are they just a bunch of mindless denominational zombies (or might I say "puppets"?) so indoctrinated into their heresies?"

C'mon, man! Don't hold back! Tell us what you really think!

"Consider, if people are just puppets as the Calvinists propose,"

That's not what we "propose".

"then who is doing the sinning?"

Humans.
(You really don't know this?!)

"Would the Calvinists deny their god's sovereignty in that realm?"

We believe the Bible:

Gen. 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me,
but God meant it for good, ...
 
More "criticisms" refuted:

"Calvinistic Heresies of Election​

Concerning election, one of the heresies of Calvinism is that God doesn't want all men to be saved but rather only wishes a variety of men be saved,"

Sounds very Biblical to me:

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
 from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Christ ransomed "some" people out of "all" groups.

"as He has chosen in puppet-like fashion."

I'm not sure how one chooses "in puppet-like fashion", but I understand your need to get that worthless rhetoric in. At least you were able to admit God DID "choose".

2Th. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

It is clear that God "chose" us for salvation. And for it to be a TRUE "choice", it has to be a selection of one thing (or group) over another option.

"Funny how the Bible commands us to love our enemies without prejudice while Calvinists view that same God as hating people prejudicially."

And?
God is allowed to hate sinners.
We're not allowed to hate other sinners, since we're just as guilty.
Unless you want to claim God is a man, or that He is a sinner, I don't understand your irrational objection.

"Indeed under Calvinism God prejudges people before they are even born."

So now you're denying God's foreknowledge?

"Not suprising how Calvinists often turn out, given their concepts of God."

And yet more insults...
I find that (if you want to judge them by their groups, and you clearly do), anti-Calvinists are MUCH more hateful than Calvinists. So I guess we each have our opinion, don't we?

"Also under Calvinism Christ didn't die for the sins of the world, but only for the sins of the elect."

This is nothing worthless word games by the critic. We certainly DO believe that "Christ died for the sins of the world", we simply understand "world' in a different way than you do. John 3:16 is about salvation not being limited to JUST Jews, but expanded into the "world" (ie. the inclusion of Gentiles)

"world" and "elect" are not mutually exclusive.
Both statements are true.
Christ died for the elect IN the world. That's why Jesus said, "everyone WHO BELIEVES". That's a reference to the elect.

"In contrast the Bible says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:2"

But you are ASSUMING that "world" means "every single individual without exception". You are free to hold that OPINION, but what you are not allowed to do is demand that everyone accept your OPINION as absolute infallible truth.

"The Calvinistic Heresy of Regeneration
According to the Bible, "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—". John 1:12b That is, people are not given the right to become children of God until they believe in Christ."

That's fine as far as it goes. But if you were to CONTINUE READING (as John clearly expected you to do), you would discover that neither "believing" nor "free will" choices were the CAUSE of being children of God.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Faith is the MEANS ("how") God saved the elect, not the CAUSE/REASON ("why") He saved them.

"Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

"Through", not "because of".
MEANS, not "cause".

"But Calvinists have it backwards. Under Calvinism a person cannot believe until he's been born of God. They get the order of faith and regeneration backwards."

No, I would respectfully suggest that YOU get the order wrong:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

1Cor. 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
 
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This is rich. The article says this "under Calvinism God prejudges people before they are even born."

Hmmm. That statement is filled with so much theological ineptitude, where does one even begin?
 
ReverendRV said:
When someone tells me as a Calvinist I should say to the Lost, 'God may not Love you'; I take a position that God is Providential and will direct my steps. I assume that those I Witness to, are Elect; even if I never see a Convert. One sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I could just be scratching the surface for someone else; and the Word of God doesn't return to him void...

Since God Hates all Evil doers, and All do Evil; I can say God Loves you since God has love for All; even if it's a common love and a common hate...

Can a Non-Calvinist tell someone God hates them, even though God is Love?
Click to expand...
Two things: God may not love a certain person, and said may well be a vessel fitted for destruction. But the other thing is, there is no model in Scripture showing us to preach this way to others in an evangelistic sense. I like to think of 2 Timothy 2:8-10 when these types of subjects come up.
 
preacher4truth said:
Two things: God may not love a certain person, and said may well be a vessel fitted for destruction. But the other thing is, there is no model in Scripture showing us to preach this way to others in an evangelistic sense. I like to think of 2 Timothy 2:8-10 when these types of subjects come up.
Click to expand...
Would you preach the Gospel indiscriminately?
 
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LeeH said:
Who are the evildoers, do you mean people who have sinned?
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Even so, Lee, if that were the case, who hasn't sinned? Who on earth does not have a fallen nature?

Note Matthew 7:11; Romans 3:9-20; Matthew 19:16-17ff; Romans 3:23.

Compared to God, all outside of being in Christ are evil, and none are good.
 
preacher4truth said:
Even so, Lee, if that were the case, who hasn't sinned? Who on earth does not have a fallen nature?

Note Matthew 7:11; Romans 3:10-20; Matthew 19:16-17.

Compared to God, all outside of being in Christ are evil, and none are good.
Click to expand...
It seemed to me he was steering toward innocent babies...

Without a New Heart, people Confess Jesus is Lord with a throat like an open grave; no wonder all that we do, touch or say is a filthy rag...
 
ReverendRV said:
It seemed to me he was steering toward innocent babies...

Without a New Heart, people Confess Jesus is Lord with a throat like an open grave; no wonder all that we do, touch or say is a filthy rag...
Click to expand...
Could be, but regardless all creation is fallen, all have a sin nature, and compared to God none are good. That is why I mentioned fallen nature, it includes all humans, from the womb to the tomb.

Maybe we should make more of "the seed of the woman" as Christ was unaffected, not being born with a sin nature, yet fully human and fully God.
 
preacher4truth said:
Could be, but regardless all creation is fallen, all have a sin nature, and compared to God none are good. That is why I mentioned fallen nature, it includes all humans, from the womb to the tomb.

Maybe we should make more of "the seed of the woman" as Christ was unaffected, not being born with a sin nature, yet fully human and fully God.
Click to expand...
Yeah...

This has gotten too easy. It's what comes out of our heart that defiles us; and Confessing Jesus is Lord from a Stoney heart is Defiled before it gets to our throat which is like an open grave...
 
preacher4truth said:
Even so, Lee, if that were the case, who hasn't sinned?
Click to expand...
Even the elect at some point must be included in that, or doesn't God hate the elect at any point? If so what is the basis then he hates people, is it just their sin, their unbelief, or another reason?
ReverendRV said:
Yes...
This also applies to All without a New Heart.
Click to expand...
That would include the elect before they received a new heart? Would they be inluded in this and if not why not?
 
LeeH said:
Even the elect at some point must be included in that, or doesn't God hate the elect at any point? If so what is the basis then he hates people, is it just their sin, their unbelief, or another reason?

That would include the elect before they received a new heart? Would they be inluded in this and if not why not?
Click to expand...
Yes, all are included...

But it wouldn't be an Unconditional Hatred of the Unconditional Elect. God hates All Evil doers...

Hate the Sin, not the Sinner; right? :)

Hey... ?
 
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