Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
I don't think you're hypocritcal Richard7, just perhaps a little frustrated the way the discussons are going?
Is all this true?
- Thread starter Lastdaysbeliever
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Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
I was expressing my opinion to another Christian, not you, however you are free to comment on your feelings about me, which you have done. Need I post the comment you made to db yesterday?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Why would the posted scriptures need an explanation?
You posted this:
I posted this:
2 Thessalonians 1:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
1 Timothy 5:18--King James Version (KJV)
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Colossians 1:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.
IMO--that says volumes.
dberrie2020
Super Member
To be sure--the question asked of the critics here, IE--what do they find in the Book of Mormon, which isn't found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--and we hear the sound of crickets--that's as loud of an admission, as to drown out any other comment made here.
And the Biblical text settles the dispute again:
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The gospel does not need to be reformed--that's a claim made by the Reformers. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration:
Acts 3:21---King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Just a note here, Lastdays:--eternal life was not available to mankind until God's work in His Atonement and Resurrection was finished.
Jesus connected obeying the commandments with eternal life--which had to be a truth pertaining to the New Testament, as eternal life was not available to mankind until the New Testament covenant.
Which means Jesus could enact New Testament principles at that time, even though His work was not finished, as to the Atonement and Resurrection.
What the young ruler did or didn't do--has nothing to do with whether Jesus was speaking the truth.
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Are you claiming if the young ruler believed Jesus--then what Jesus testified to was true--and if he didn't--it was false?
So--how do you feel Matthew19 is any different than the testimony of the scriptures here?
1 John 2:3-4--King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
Eternal life doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does to Christians. Eternal life to Mormon's is exaltation to the highest degree of celestial heaven, living in your God's presence and continue as families.
His work had not started in the timeline of Matthew 19. The Kingdom of God had come near but had not been revealed yet.
To understand the Bible you must be able to understand what God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is teaching.
What I stated was Jesus asked why the young ruler claimed He was a good teacher when Jesus proclaimed only God was good. This was the chance for the young ruler to proclaim Jesus is God and yet, he changed his response to "teacher", not acknowledging Jesus as God. The young ruler was after something other, acknowledgment of his following the commandments.
We are not saved by works db. We are saved by God's unmerited favor but I understand saved means different things to you, as a Mormon.
Richard7
Well-known member
Chuckle, as usual you interpret the meaning as you are also obviously terrible at interpreting scripture ...or responding to answers...
Richard7
Well-known member
Could care less, no one expects you to really answer anything other then label and use your snide off the hand adjectives...
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
Come on Richard. If you didn't care you wouldn't respond. I think I've found a warm spot in your heart as your opponent.
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
Perhaps, but you yourself failed to interpret that I was purposefully turning your comment back on you even though it was meant for me so there is that...
organgrinder
Well-known member
It is what he does...and little if anything else.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Sons, daughters, Father, etc--all sounds like a family to me.
Again--what do you find as a distinguishing difference between these scriptures?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
You do believe the Kingdom of God had been revealed by the end of the Book of Revelation--right?
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
Do you agree that eternal life means something different for you, as a mormon, as it does for me, as a Christian?
I find you pulling out verses that contain your pet theology as shallow and unbiblical. But let's say your eisgeted verses mean exactly what you are attempting to make them say; that we must do something to have a right, or earn, eternal life. How does your theology then, saved by Grace after all you can do, deal with these Bible verses:
Ephesians 2:4-5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time
Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing
Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace
I also want to point out being saved also has different meanings for you, as a Mormon, then for me as a Christian.
Yes, we who are followers of the Way are to follow God's commandments, else these wouldn't be commandments would they. But we do not follow His commandments to save ourselves nor earn eternal life but to be obedient and bear the fruit of salvation, that we know Him.
As James writes What is faith without works? Dead, as in whoever claims to have faith and doesn't exhibit good works doesn't know Him. And why do we do good works? To glorify God's Grace in us, all the glory to God and not of ourselves. It's one thing to recognize Jesus, as you do, but another to know Him, as you don't.
I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion. Perhaps you can unpack what you believe and then I can better respond.
Richard7
Well-known member
What is eisgeted?
We must believe that it is through his grace that we are saved, that he performed for us that labor which we were unable to perform for ourselves, and did for us those things which were essential to our salvation, which were beyond our power; and also that we are under the commandment and the necessity of performing the labors that are required of us as set forth in the commandments known as the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols.,
That is true, definition in its simplest and easiest to understand would be .... Life With God (Eternity)
Also we understand there a various kingdoms....
“In My Father's House Are Many Mansions” The Prophet Joseph Smith (1805–44) taught that the Savior's statement, “In my Father's house are many mansions,” found in John 14:2, should be understood to mean, “'In my Father's kingdom are many kingdoms,' in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. …
What happens if you do not follow the commandments? easy question. Yet you proclaim Christ is your Lord and Savior?
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
A form of eisegisis: an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text v. exegeting (exegete v. eisgete) Bible verses: critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.
Your quote does not deal with the verses I provided that show we are saved by Grace alone, and not of anything we can do. We cannot provide anything towards our salvation Richard. But again, this highlights the difference of your understanding of what salvation is, as a Mormom, and what the Bible teaches we who follow the way, what salvation is.
I didn't write "Life with God" but eternal life. This is an important distinction.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV
So he changed the meaning of what is written in the Bible because this change diametrically changes what the original text taught. There is one God's Kingdom. As for many mansions in the ancient Greek mansions is better translated “dwelling places.” The noun mone (μονή monḗ, mon-ay'; from G3306; a staying, i.e., residence (the act or the place) abode, mansion.) means “a place to stay.” Smith's translation, interjecting kingdom, basileia, creates a different meaning (βασιλεία basileía, bas-il-i'-ah; from G935; properly, royalty, i.e. (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively) kingdom, reign) to what Jesus, the Christ, God, the Beginning and the End, the First and Last, the Great I AM, said. Smith is willing to stop at nothing to create the narrative that supports his theology.
Tell me what you think happens.
?
dberrie2020
Super Member
dberrie2020 said: Again--what do you find as a distinguishing difference between these scriptures?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Where I come from, verses quoted from the Biblical NT are Biblical.
You have a strange kind of Christianity. It certainly isn't Biblical Christianity.
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Where I come from, verses quoted from the Biblical NT are Biblical.
You have a strange kind of Christianity. It certainly isn't Biblical Christianity.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Please do reveal to us what works you add to faith in obtaining eternal life. And if it is none--then it's a dead faith you pawn here as a salvational faith.
Richard7
Well-known member
I learned something about the difference. thx!
Lehi:
We can be saved only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ.
“We cannot earn our way into heaven; the demands of justice stand as a barrier, which we are powerless to overcome on our own.
“But all is not lost.
“The grace of God is our great and everlasting hope.
“Through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the plan of mercy appeases the demands of justice [see Alma 42:15]” (“The Gift of Grace,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2015, 108).
You asked: "Do you agree that eternal life means something different for you, as a mormon, as it does for me, as a Christian?"
I replied: Life With God (Eternity) Eternal Life is Life with God in the Celestial Kingdom.
Since we don't have the original Hebrew manuscripts, some were written in Hebrew and others in Koine Greek....
Many also consider it as dwelling place and consider that more accurate.
The word that the KJV translates “mansions” is better translated “dwelling places” or “abiding places.” The same word is used later in the chapter when Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him” (John 14:23).
From the Greek verb mέnw menō “to stay, stand fast, remain, abide” comes the feminine noun monή moné “a staying, abiding, tarrying.” In John 14:2 we find the noun’s nominative plural monaί monaí which can be translated “dwelling-places.” In John 14:23 we find the noun’s accusative singular monήn monén which here can be translated “abode” or “dwelling-place.” Thus the respective verses can be translated “In my Father’s house are many dwelling-places” and “we will…make our abode/dwelling-place with him.” To “make one’s abode/dwelling-place” with someone is a common Greek expression meaning simply to take up residence and dwell or live with someone.
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
You believe you are saved by grace, after all you can do, which I presume includes what you are alluding to quoting these verses. I countered with verses that you don't seem to understand. That said:
Matthew 19:16-19; this is again the young ruler seeking to be recognized for his "righteousness" in the claim he had followed all the commandments which we know is not possible. The only One who was able to follow the commandments, perfectly, was He who wrote them. Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:3-4 is clear that if we know Jesus we will keep His commandments, as I explained in my last post. The difference being to know Him is not just to recognize Him. How do we know Him? By repenting of our sin, accepting Him as Lord, God and Savior and I mean the Jesus of the Bible, not the Mormon Jesus. These two are NOT the same.
Revelation 22:14; Blessed are those who do His commandments: Doing His commandments does not earn us eternal life, but it is evidence that we have been granted eternal life. Besides, there is an inherent blessing in doing His commandments, because they are good and right for us. Regarding the phrase those who do His commandments some translations have those who have washed their robes instead. The difference is between two ancient Greek words: HOIPLUNONTESTASSTOLAS (washed their robes) or HOIPOIOUNTESTASENTOLAS (do His commandments).
As a Mormon you have a different understanding of the above verses don't you? Yes or no will suffice. And please refer to the verses I offered in my last post that goes hand in hand with my comment above.
Verses from the Bible are verses from the Bible. What makes quotes verses Biblical is the correct interpretation of said verses.
That seems a rather strange comment coming from a Mormon who only believe in the Bible as long as it is translated correctly.
Lastdaysbeliever
Well-known member
I am surprised you didn't know. That said, you're welcome.
Can we suss out what you mean using Mormon resources below and the difference between what Christianity claims being saved is and what Mormonism teaches:
Salvation from Physical Death. All people eventually die. But through the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected—saved from physical death. Paul testified, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). In this sense, everyone is saved, regardless of choices made during this life. This is a free gift from the Savior to all human beings.
Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God (see 2 Peter 2:20–22).
These iterations indicate we have a chasm between what the Bible teaches and what Mormonism teaches on what salvation is. Agreed?
The key being "celestial kingdom" which I'm sure you alluded to when you refenced Smiths changing the words from Matthew (many mansions).
Do you have the original "reformed egyptian" for the BoM? With all due respect your argument is rather feckless. There are thousands and thousands of original manuscripts for the Bible Richard in Hebrew and Koine Greek. There are zero original manuscripts for the BoM.
I was addressing Smith's change of many mansions to kingdoms; perhaps you can expound on what you are trying to clarify.Many also consider it as dwelling place and consider that more accurate.
The word that the KJV translates “mansions” is better translated “dwelling places” or “abiding places.” The same word is used later in the chapter when Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him” (John 14:23).
From the Greek verb mέnw menō “to stay, stand fast, remain, abide” comes the feminine noun monή moné “a staying, abiding, tarrying.” In John 14:2 we find the noun’s nominative plural monaί monaí which can be translated “dwelling-places.” In John 14:23 we find the noun’s accusative singular monήn monén which here can be translated “abode” or “dwelling-place.” Thus the respective verses can be translated “In my Father’s house are many dwelling-places” and “we will…make our abode/dwelling-place with him.” To “make one’s abode/dwelling-place” with someone is a common Greek expression meaning simply to take up residence and dwell or live with someone.