Origin of Spirits in Mormonism

[Janice Bower]

Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).

 

[dberrie2020]

Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).

Or, IOW:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

[Janice Bower]

God the "heavenly father" and one of his wives, a "heavenly mother" have had millions of spirit children. We were spirit children. The Mormon Jesus was the firstborn and was chosen to save those who become members of his church. Before our spirits were sent to earth, we spent time in our first estate(sometimes called pre-existence) and made lots of choices which determined factors in this second estate. Jesus and Satan were our brothers in the first estate. Satan and his followers were not allowed the opportunity to have physical bodies and can't work towards godhood. Those spirit children who became noble and great in the first estate are leaders in the Mormon church.

Mormons do not believe in kenosis, but Jesus was Jehovah in the Old Testament. Humans are here to work towards godhood. We are to make the right choices in this second estate.

They have so many extra biblical teachings(and requirements) that they skip a discussion of certain aspects of Christian theology with their members.

 

[dberrie2020]

God the "heavenly father" and one of his wives, a "heavenly mother" have had millions of spirit children. We were spirit children.

We still are children, Janice. Offspring are always children:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the fact there are billions of humans here on this earth--confirms there must be "millions" of spirits--as we believe all mortals possess a spirit.

And, the fact that having a mother and father here--shows it's God's way, and not man's, as man had nothing to do with it, as it's creation goes.

The Mormon Jesus was the firstborn and was chosen to save those who become members of his church.

But that is just Christian theology--something foreign to some of the critics here.

They have so many extra biblical teachings(and requirements) that they skip a discussion of certain aspects of Christian theology with their members.

So--what are you claiming they "skip"?

 

[brotherofJared]

Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).

Regardless of how you interpret that, one thing is evident, we were created or made and no heavenly mother was required for that "birth process" to take place. You offer very little by way of argument, so I'm not sure what your issue is, as always - it seems. But if it appears that Romney in this latter quote is suggesting that we all came from a great big blob of spirit matter, that has some basis in existing theological thought - it wasn't originated by the church, but it is one line of thought. We've since added a line, that gender is an eternal identity. As such, it doesn't appear that we came from a giant endless blob of spirit matter.

 

[brotherofJared]

God the "heavenly father" and one of his wives, a "heavenly mother" have had millions of spirit children.

That's a story made up by our critics. They have arrived at false conclusions based mostly on their conjecture.

The Mormon Jesus was the firstborn

That is a Biblical fact. Do you want me to show you where it can be found?

and was chosen to save those who become members of his church

Actually, he chose to save all mankind. Men, from that point are free to choose if they will be saved or not.

Before our spirits were sent to earth, we spent time in our first estate(sometimes called pre-existence) and made lots of choices which determined factors in this second estate.

Doh. We made one choice, not lots.

Jesus and Satan were our brothers in the first estate

There is only one father of spirits, That's Biblical, do you want us to show you where to find that reference? Unless you can come up with some other being out there who could be considered a father of spirits, all of us are brothers and/or sisters, spiritually speaking. That's just a Biblical fact that our critics remain in denial of to no benefit to their dogma (the idea doesn't change who Christ is or what he did - it's not the hill to die on, but I suppose ti works for gaslighting).

Satan and his followers were not allowed the opportunity to have physical bodies

That also appears to be Biblical. Where were the 1/3 cast out of heaven cast out too? Seems to be a moot point - pretty useless information if you ask me.

Those spirit children who became noble and great in the first estate are leaders in the Mormon church.

I don't know where you got that either, totally made up. We're pretty sure that among the noble and great ones were Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Melchizedek, John the Baptist, all the original apostles, all the prophets, to name but a few, but I don't know where you get the idea that they are leaders of the Mormon church. I suspect that you just made that up.

They have so many extra biblical teaching

yea. I don't know. I looks to me like most of what you wrote here is Biblical or just plain common sense.

 

[Yitoz]

Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).

This was taught in the KFD and referred to in POGP Abraham 3:18. This would mean that according to mormon theology as expressed by joseph, all gods, including the mormon gods, are merely products of this universe, which would mean that the "universe" contains some type of innate intelligence that exceeds all of those created deities in toto. These gods must have somehow evolved out of the matter of the universe, however, mormons express no doctrine or even curiosity about who or what became the prime deitiy or deities. This would even be a type of misguided Gnosticism. No wonder they follow all of joseph's aberrant teachings with little or no question.

 

[Aaron32]

Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).

God the "heavenly father" and one of his wives, a "heavenly mother" have had millions of spirit children. We were spirit children. The Mormon Jesus was the firstborn and was chosen to save those who become members of his church. Before our spirits were sent to earth, we spent time in our first estate(sometimes called pre-existence) and made lots of choices which determined factors in this second estate. Jesus and Satan were our brothers in the first estate. Satan and his followers were not allowed the opportunity to have physical bodies and can't work towards godhood. Those spirit children who became noble and great in the first estate are leaders in the Mormon church.

Mormons do not believe in kenosis, but Jesus was Jehovah in the Old Testament. Humans are here to work towards godhood. We are to make the right choices in this second estate.

They have so many extra biblical teachings(and requirements) that they skip a discussion of certain aspects of Christian theology with their members.

Interesting how you have references in your first quote, but not for your second quote.

Let's look at the first quote. In the Conference Talk it references D&C 76:24, which says "The spirits of men “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). The conference talk says nothing else about "the birth process".

D&C 76:24 "That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." Who's the "him" being referred to here, Janice? Obviously, it's Jesus Christ.

If it's Jesus Christ, then how exactly does that align with your second quote? What role does Jesus play as HF and HM are supposedly having sex?
Did Jesus created himself? I'd invite you to trace the sources to the origin of such teachings. I believe you'll find it was a narrative by James E Talmage to overwrite the Adam God teachings by Brigham Young. In any case, it's short-cited, unscriptural, and the core of anti-mormonism.

The Saints have evolved in their reasoning, and instructed to gain an understanding and testimony of themselves based on their daily study of the Standard Works, not simply trust Church leaders in deep doctrines. To my knowledge, your narrative is not currently taught in the church today, but it abundant throughout anti-mormon sources.

 

[CrowCross]

Let's look at the first quote. In the Conference Talk it references D&C 76:24, which says "The spirits of men “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). The conference talk says nothing else about "the birth process".

I often see sourses presented that don't support the biblical view.

Paul applauded the Bereans for listening to himthen checking scripture to see if what he said was true....in Berean fashion you can check the bible and see what the mormons teach often isn't even in the bible. You D&C quote would be one of them.

 

[Slyzr]

Or, IOW:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Same story bro .......

Why are you seeking to convert other's?

Priority?

 

[Aaron32]

I often see sourses presented that don't support the biblical view.

Paul applauded the Bereans for listening to himthen checking scripture to see if what he said was true....in Berean fashion you can check the bible and see what the mormons teach often isn't even in the bible. You D&C quote would be one of them.

I don't see the name "Jesus Christ" in the Old Testament, though he is described. Yet, Jews interpret those scriptures differently than Christians.
Moreover, Deuteronomy 4:2 commanded not to add to his word, yet, Christians figured out a way.

Do you see the point? Bereans had to extend faith to interpret Old Testament scripture through the lens of the Christian apostles, else they would have simply remained Jews.

 

[Slyzr]

I don't see the name "Jesus Christ" in the Old Testament, though he is described. Yet, Jews interpret those scriptures differently than Christians.
Moreover, Deuteronomy 4:2 commanded not to add to his word, yet, Christians figured out a way.

Do you see the point? Bereans had to extend faith to interpret Old Testament scripture through the lens of the Christian apostles, else they would have simply remained Jews.

Not sure what you are getting at?

 

[Janice Bower]

Interesting how you have references in your first quote, but not for your second quote.

Let's look at the first quote. In the Conference Talk it references D&C 76:24, which says "The spirits of men “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). The conference talk says nothing else about "the birth process".

D&C 76:24 "That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." Who's the "him" being referred to here, Janice? Obviously, it's Jesus Christ.

If it's Jesus Christ, then how exactly does that align with your second quote? What role does Jesus play as HF and HM are supposedly having sex?
Did Jesus created himself? I'd invite you to trace the sources to the origin of such teachings. I believe you'll find it was a narrative by James E Talmage to overwrite the Adam God teachings by Brigham Young. In any case, it's short-cited, unscriptural, and the core of anti-mormonism.

The Saints have evolved in their reasoning, and instructed to gain an understanding and testimony of themselves based on their daily study of the Standard Works, not simply trust Church leaders in deep doctrines. To my knowledge, your narrative is not currently taught in the church today, but it abundant throughout anti-mormon sources.

I said nothing about sex. Your leaders did that. Today's Mormonism is already different than what I learned. If it had been truth in the beginning it wouldn't have been necessary to change it.

As potential converts and members we were taught that the Eternal Father would answer our prayers by the power of the Holy Ghost. Of course, if a person received an answer not approved by Mormons, the fault was with he person who prayed. I prayed and you don't approve of my answer or my posts. I'm not interested in anti-Mormon sources because I'm not anti-Mormons. Mormons prefer anti-Christianity sources. Where does that leave you?

If D&C 76:24 came from God, which it didn't, Joseph Smith might have been referring to the true God, but he wasn't. He hated Christianity.

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Moroni 10:4-5​

The True God told me to leave Mormonism. You started this post to imply that I have used anti-Mormon sources. Joseph Smith and his followers wrote anti-Christianity comments and narratives, but your excuse is that past leaders could have been wrong but Mormons have evolved.

 

[Aaron32]

Not sure what you are getting at?

If you use only the Old Testament to interpret the Old Testament, you'll have the understanding of a Jew.
If you use the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament, you'll have the understanding of Christian.
If you use the Bible to interpret the Bible you'll have the understanding of a Protestant christian.
If you use Mormon Scriptures to interpret the Bible, you'll have a Mormon understanding.

The Bereans didn't believe in Sola Scriptura, they acknowledged the apostles words and truth, and validated them with scripture.
Similarly, Mormons are instructed to have daily scripture study both individually and in families, and to gain a personal witness. It's not any different than the Bereans.
Anti-mormonism is the guilty belief system of identifying statements of Church Leaders ungrounded in scripture, and treating them as foundational doctrines.

 

[Aaron32]

I said nothing about sex. Your leaders did that. Today's Mormonism is already different than what I learned. If it had been truth in the beginning it wouldn't have been necessary to change it.

Or maybe you didn't stick around long enough.

As potential converts and members we were taught that the Eternal Father would answer our prayers by the power of the Holy Ghost. Of course, if a person received an answer not approved by Mormons, the fault was with he person who prayed. I prayed and you don't approve of my answer or my posts.

I'm not sure exactly what that has to do with anything. I'm talking about portraying the beliefs of my religion accurately.

I'm not interested in anti-Mormon sources because I'm not anti-Mormons. Mormons prefer anti-Christianity sources. Where does that leave you?

Very confused considering the consider the Bible to be the word of God.

If D&C 76:24 came from God, which it didn't, Joseph Smith might have been referring to the true God, but he wasn't. He hated Christianity.

According to you

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Moroni 10:4-5​

Yes. Exactly.

The True God told me to leave Mormonism.

I'm guessing he has different plans for you. God usually doesn't inspire us to break our covenants, though.

You started this post to imply that I have used anti-Mormon sources. Joseph Smith and his followers wrote anti-Christianity comments and narratives, but your excuse is that past leaders could have been wrong but Mormons have evolved.

You have no source on the procreation between HF and HM.

 

[CrowCross]

Yet, Jews interpret those scriptures differently than Christians.
Moreover, Deuteronomy 4:2 commanded not to add to his word, yet, Christians figured out a way.

Mormons interpret those scriptures differently than Christians.

Mormons had to extend faith to interpret biblical scripture through the lens of the mormon prophets, else they would have simply remained Christians.

 

[Aaron32]

Mormons interpret those scriptures differently than Christians.

Mormons had to extend faith to interpret biblical scripture through the lens of the mormon prophets, else they would have simply remained Christians.

Yes. Exactly. Just as Christians extended faith the New Testament apostles to interpret the Old Testament. They didn't limit their beliefs to the written word and traditional beliefs alone. So IF God organized a church through a restored priesthood, then the truthfulness of Mormonism is as equally plausible as Christianity was in the face of Judaism.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes. Exactly. Just as Christians extended faith the New Testament apostles to interpret the Old Testament. They didn't limit their beliefs to the written word and traditional beliefs alone. So IF God organized a church through a restored priesthood, then the truthfulness of Mormonism is as equally plausible as Christianity was in the face of Judaism.

Thing is we know there is no restored priesthood....this so called restored priesthood contradicts the words of those it's trying to restore.
This false "restored priesthood" is making the claim they only have salvation via this "restored priesthood".

The bottom line, when one is noble like the Bereans...checks out the so-called mormon prophets words or claimed books....they fail the test.

 

[Aaron32]

Thing is we know there is no restored priesthood....this so called restored priesthood contradicts the words of those it's trying to restore.
This false "restored priesthood" is making the claim they only have salvation via this "restored priesthood".

How do you "know" the claim is false? Where's the contradiction?

 

[Janice Bower]

Or maybe you didn't stick around long enough.

I stuck around many years until God finally convinced me to get out. Long enough for Mormons would be the rest of my life! But I've studied Mormonism from Mormon sources for almost 60 years.

Very confused considering the consider the Bible to be the word of God.

I know from statements made by false Mormon teachers (including Joseph Smith) and your Articles of Faith .

According to you

According to his multiple lies and criticisms of Christianity.. "I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true."--Joseph Smith - History 1

Yes. Exactly.

Spoken like a Mormon, of course, So when I claim I prayed, it's not good enough for Mormons because I prayed fervently to the True God.

I'm guessing he has different plans for you. God usually doesn't inspire us to break our covenants, though.

Mormon covenants are not of God. When you are in a cult like Mormoniism, the true God says "Come out from among them and be ye separate."

You have no source on the procreation between HF and HM.

I have sources. How many published sources does it take? I doubt that a provision of sources makes any difference to you.

Try Family Home Evening Manual, c. 1972, pages 125-126 for information about the origin of Jesus' physical body. i never spoke of procreation or sex concerning a heavenly mother. However single people per Mormonism do not parent children in the next life and "heavenly father" isn't single per Mormonism.