Learning to become a god
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Aaron32
Well-known member
No, I'm looking to the quotes by Joseph Smith on the completeness and accuracy of the endowment.
I thought the points cited in this article were pretty good:
Why has the wording of the endowment session changed when taught it would never change?
The ordinances are eternal in nature and are not to be altered; and all people must receive those ordinances.
askgramps.org
Aaron32
Well-known member
I don't see any source where the endowment says "at the peril of your life". It appears in this case, anything will be accepted to support your apriori conclusions.
It's important to note, however, that it was Brigham Young that systematized the endowment, and he believed in the blood atonement, which is probably where they throat slashing came from.
The blood oaths in the LDS Church temple ceremony, which were discontinued church-wide in 1990, depicted a willingness to have one's throat cut from ear to ear should the participant reveal certain portions of the sacred rituals or fail to keep promises given during the washing and anointing ordinances.
But changes such as those doesn't mean "all or nothing" in terms of the necessity in obtaining the fulness of the priesthood.
It took the Christian Church centuries to identify God as the Trinity, does that mean they were worshipping a false God prior to making the doctrinal change?
Right, if you don't have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, nor experienced the baptism of fire, I wouldn't expect anyone to accept the LDS endowment on a philosophical or religious basis. Yet, you have to consider the source from which you're gaining these opinions - and recognize it's all second-hand. I know many who love to go to the temple, find peace, purpose, etc. I heard about it so much while I was going to church I complained to the bishop about it.
Personally, I really don't understand what's creepy about a prayer circle when it's teaching the true order of prayer. do you get creeped out when people pray as a group in general?
Moreover, I love it when the Church receives criticism. It forces the Church to be better can gets more to its core beliefs. But ,the irony is, BECAUSE the leadership listen, receive the criticism, and makes changes - you assume they're not led by God. Whereas, you think they should die on insignificant hills. Can you tell me a church that is thriving today that hasn't made any changes in doctrine or practices since it's founding? I'd sincerely like to know about it.
Mormonism believe there are spiritual truths in all things - "truth is one great whole" <- a line also used in the temple endowment.
So-called Christians don't want to believe anything outside the box of the Bible and their own logic. To me, it's absolutely narcissistic to believe that the only people who worship God are those that agree with you. Thus, labels like "pagan" are applied to imply Satan is involved (which being blind to the pagan-ism in their own religion).
You view mormonism just as many atheists view the Old Testament. To them, Hebrews were cult followers of Moses to get them that legalized rape, and promoted things like genocide. One could also breakdown the supernatural stories as witchcraft and divination. Do you honestly think the Jewish authorities "made up" the criticism of Jesus that he had a devil? No. The unfamiliar puts us on guard - that's human nature. But God hasn't given us the spirit of fear.
I tend to hold a more bibilical standard:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
What exactly is to deny? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/masonry?lang=eng
I understand this is probably all new for you, but don't project that on me. Please?
Aaron32
Well-known member
This is an excellent question! If it's revelation necessary for salvation we should have more information on it, right?
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Mormons teach that man can become a god over his own planet, so who is the god of this planet?
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
To worship I would think so.
Richard7
Well-known member
In Greek "Christ" has the same sense as the Hebrew "Messiah" . So organ grinder both ... Messiah and Christ mean "anointed one".....both a name and title.
Theo1689
Well-known member
<sigh>
"Messiah" is a title, not a "name".
"Christ" is a title, not a "name".
"Bricklayer" is a title, not a "name".
"Lawyer" is a title, not a "name".
Richard7
Well-known member
Oh my similarities... but not the same (identical).Post 426
Post 427
Magdalena: Yes. This is one source. There are many.
Freemasonry in Mormonism ï½ Itâs not Sacred, itâs SECRET...
Are there similarities between Masonic rituals and LDS temple worship?
Richard7
Well-known member
Both name and title, meaning the anointed one....
Magdalena
Well-known member
No one said they were identical. But that’s where Smith got them. Then he put his own little spin on some of them. But the handshakes, signs, symbols, penalties, costume, etc. are masonic.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Yeah, and?
Still doesn't make it a "name".
"The annointed one" <-- not a "name".
"The blessed one" <-- not a "name".
"The studied one" <-- not a "name".
"The tall one" <-- not a "name".
"The picked-on one" <-- not a "name".
"The idiotic one" <-- not a "name".
dberrie2020
Super Member
If one talked about it--then how could this be true?
Revelation 2:17---King James Version
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Would the service rendered to God in this temple, both day and night---by those who are dressed in white robes--raise your eyebrows?
Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
How could they--and this be true?
Revelation 2:17---King James Version
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
New Day--the critics here haven't the first living, mortal apostle nor prophet--not the first heavenly revelation they can show within their denominations, no formal priesthood, no temple--nothing the first century church enjoyed, in that respect--which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also enjoys.
So--could you explain to us how your approach to those things--is any different than what the traditional Jews were leveling against the living, mortal apostles and prophets of the first century church?
And--it's usually those who do not have those things--which level this very accusation against the very Church which does possess them.
When you can post for us--where your church received these kinds of things--then perhaps you might boast of something:
D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
The fact is--your church can't show one iota of those kinds of heavenly interactions--because they don't have them. Think on that--a church which claims to be the church of Jesus Christ--which can't show one heavenly interaction--which is canonized as scripture. The NT church can--and so can The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Until then--you are shooting blanks.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Immature children, playing "make-believe", playing from a "script" since they don't have access to the real thing, never "raise my eyebrows".
Nobody's impressed with your worthless rhetoric.
dberrie2020
Super Member
As the article shows--the term "monotheism" wasn't had among the Early Church Fathers.
So--just a note here:
Monotheism in the Hebrew Bible - Bible Odyssey
It will surprise some readers to learn that biblical scholars debate whether the ancient Israelites and the Hebrew Bible they produced were monotheistic.
auburnseminary.bibleodyssey.org
"The Hebrew Bible provides ample evidence that many Israelites believed in the existence of multiple deities. This is the case for polytheistic Israelites whom biblical prophets criticize for worshipping other gods; but even some authors of the biblical texts seem polytheistic. The Hebrew Bible refers to many heavenly creatures, calling them “gods” (Gen 6:2; Ps 29:1, Ps 82:6, Ps 86:8, Ps 89:7; Job 1:6), “angels” (Num 20:16; 2Sam 24:16; 1Kgs 13:18; Zech 1:11-12; Ps 78:49; Job 33:23), and “the assembly of holy ones” (Ps 89:5).
If we adopt the common definition of monotheism as the belief that no deities exist other than the one God, then the Hebrew Bible is not a monotheistic work.
In short, the common definition of monotheism is not terribly useful: it fails to capture something essential that distinguishes the religion of the Hebrew Bible from ancient Mesopotamian, Canaanite, and Egyptian religions, as well as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam from Hinduism and Shintoism. A category of polytheism including Hinduism and Judaism, the worship of the Greek pantheon and the worship of the biblical God, is so large as to be meaningless."
Also--
“Early Christian Monotheism”---https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/early-christian-monotheism/
April 19, 2013In a previous posting I described the thrust of my recent Burkitt Lecture in Rice University, and promised a report on my lectures in Houston Baptist University. I’ll comment here on the first of these: “Early Christian Monotheism”.
I began by discussing “the Terminology Question”, specifically debates about whether in fact it is misleading to refer to ancient Jewish or Christian “monotheism”. The problem is that (1) the term is of relatively recent vintage (18th century), and, more seriously, (2) that the standard dictionary definition is belief in the existence of only one God (or, correspondingly, denial of the existence of any other gods). All our evidence of ancient Jewish tradition is either inconclusive about whether the existence of other deities was denied, or else is pretty clear that their existence wasn’t denied. Ancient Jews (and Christians) seem to have been more concerned to refuse the worship of other deities, and not so much their existence.
So, I continue, if “pagan monotheism” is a valid category (NB, not “monotheism,” but “pagan monotheism”), then I propose that we can also refer to “ancient Jewish monotheism,” by which I mean the notion that there is one deity alone who is properly to be worshipped. I.e., it’s not the existence of other deities that is particularly denied, but instead the propriety of giving them worship. Worship-practice is the key expression of this “ancient Jewish monotheism.” Here, also, this isn’t dictionary “monotheism,” but instead “ancient Jewish monotheism.”
I then describe the remarkable innovation in earliest Christian circles in which Jesus is linked uniquely with God as rightful co-recipient of cultic devotion, proposing that we can call this “early Christian monotheism.” Once again, not the dictionary-version of “monotheism,” i.e., not focused on denying the existence of other divine beings, but instead comprising a strong, exclusive worship-practice: In this case, only one God and one Lord (designated by the one God) as rightful recipients of worship. This produces the distinctive “dyadic devotional pattern” that I have underscored a number of times.
I note also that the “discourse” about God reflected in the NT has a “triadic shape,” with ample references to “God”, “Jesus (the Lord),” and “the Holy Spirit”. But the worship-practice has a clear “dyadic shape,” focused on God and Jesus.
I concluded the lecture with a couple of illustrations of how this “early Christian monotheism” had corollaries in other matters. For example, Paul can use his commitment to “one God” as a basis for his view of salvation as being “one-size-for-all,” both Jews and gentiles saved by the one God through the one provision, Jesus.
Theo1689
Well-known member
I see..
So you're so ignorant of the Early Church Fathers, that you're completely ignorant of Clement of Rome (A.D. 35 - A.D. 99):
1 Clem. 43:6 τί δοκεῖτε, ἀγαπητοί; οὐ προῄδει Μωϋσῆς τοῦτο μέλλειν ἔσεσθαι;μάλιστα ᾔδει: ἀλλ̓ ἵνα μὴ ἀκαταστασία γένηται ἐν τῷ Ἰσραήλ, οὕτωςἐποίησεν, εἰς τὸ δοξασθῆναι τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ ἀληθινοῦ καὶ μόνου θεοῦ: ᾦ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. ἀμήν.
(1st cent. A.D.)
2 Clem 20:5 Τῷ μόνῳ θεῷ ἀοράτῳ, πατρὶ τῆς ἀληθείας, τῷ ἐξαποστείλαντι ἡμῖν τὸνσωτῆρα καὶ ἀρχηγὸν τῆς ἀφθαρσίας, δἰ οὗ καὶ ἐφανέρωσεν ἡμῖν τὴνἀλήθειαν καὶ τὴν ἐπουράνιον ζωήν, αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶναἰώνων. ἀμήν.
(1st cent. A.D.)
dberrie2020
Super Member
dberrie said---"Would the service rendered to God in this temple, both day and night---by those who are dressed in white robes--raise your eyebrows?
Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."
What is there about Revelation7:13-15 you don't consider the "real thing"?
Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."
What is there about Revelation7:13-15 you don't consider the "real thing"?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Why do you play these stupid games, dberrie?!
I never said anything of the sort.
It's the Mormon temple "play" that's "not the real thing".
Not Rev. 7.
But I thank you for being here, because it's a testimony for the whole world how evil Mormonism makes a person.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Again--the Early Church Fathers never used the term "monotheism". That term was coined in the 17th century, according to some articles:
What led to the emergence of monotheism?
Our modern understanding of monotheism is more recent than the religions it describes.
www.livescience.com
Still, it wasn't until 1660 that the term monotheism was first used, and decades later the term polytheism, Chalmers said.