brotherofJared
Well-known member
What part of the wages of sin. Is death don't you get Bonnie
The free gift of God
- Thread starter dberrie2020
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Bonnie
Super Member
Oh, I get it just fine, boJ!
And it is the truth! But this is just an attempt to keep from dealing with the rest of what Paul writes here--isn't it? In the same verse? "....but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."Does one pay for a gift?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Oh, I get it just fine, boJ!
Does one pay for a gift?
You seem to think so, Bonnie. You are the one who claims one has to earn the free gift by applying their faith to it.
The LDS believe the free gift is unconditional--as it "came upon all men"--when Jesus Christ finished it--not when someone adds their faith to it.
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
"came upon"--past tense. Centuries before you were born. Jesus Christ alone. Nailed to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. And finished when Jesus finished it--not when you add your faith to validate it.
dberrie2020
Super Member
The "Resurrection unto damnation" was never described as the gift--that's your alteration.
It is the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ which was the free gift to all men.
The resurrection unto damnation is a judgment according to what one did with the gifts. That does not mean the Atonement or the resurrection isn't a gift to all men.
For example--the scriptures testify Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world:
1John2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What people do with that gift is not the determining factor of whether that is a gift to all men. God did not die in vain--He offered an opportunity to all men, as a free gift--and what they do with that gift can't change that. It's a gift to all men.
The consequences of what they do with that gift may not be considered a gift--but that has nothing to do with the fact it is a gift to all men.
Freedom is always a gift. What one does with their freedom is another story.
Bonnie
Super Member
I never said that resurrection unto damnation was "described as the gift." But your church says resurrection to immortality is the gift that goes to all, regardless of who they are or what they have done in life. It does not differentiate between the resurrection to eternal life or to damnation. I was simply pointing out that being resurrected to immortality to damnation isn't a gift.
I agree, but not all will believe or accept this wondrous gift, but will reject it, in favor of man-made gods and man-made gospels, which are NO gospels at all.
it is according to what one did with the gifts given to them freely by Jesus Christ, but which they rejected. Because, as Hebrews says "without faith, it is impossible to please God." Even Atheists can do good things in this life, but does that save them to eternal life?
I agree; Jesus died for all and offered the gift of eternal life to all--but too many will reject that wondrous gift, basically throwing it back in Jesus' faith. Or they think they must earn that gift of eternal life, when it is "the gift of God."
I fully agree.
I agree it is the gift for all people, but all too often, people will reject that gift--as atheists do--or substitute their own false gospel and works righteousness dogmas that they must adhere to, in order to earn eternal life--as the LDS church does. But a false savior and a false gospel save no one. They are lies that lead one away from the truth and eternal life. Paul wrote that those who accept another Gospel rather than the one he had taught that his parishioners had accepted were "anathema"--cursed by God. Mormons have accepted another gospel that is NO gospel and therefore, sadly, are "anathema." They are cursed, however unintentionally and unwittingly. The leaders in your church will have much to answer for when Jesus comes again, as to why they lied so much to its membership. As Jesus said:
That is what your church has been doing for many decades....they are the modern day "scribes and Pharisees", spreading false doctrines, teaching a false god and a false savior, Satan's brother--what an abysmally low Christology your church has, to its shame!--and building very expensive, lavishly decorated "temples" all over the world, in which to perform Masonic rituals with a Mormon twist, including showing totally perverted and twisted versions of the Creation and Fall into sin stories from Genesis, in the video shown to the attendees in the Endowment ceremony....shameful....
But this freedom we have in Christ Jesus cost Him dearly. JESUS paid for the gift of eternal life, because we could never do so, in a million years, not when the "wages of sin is death". But the "free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." And we have that great gift of eternal life by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior.
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brotherofJared
Well-known member
And our critics accuse us of cherry picking the scriptures. I don't know what you would call taking the cherries that you don't like out of the basket and throwing them away just because they aren't convenient to your beliefs.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
There you go. That's what the Bible teaches. Anyone who teaches a gospel other than that isn't teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Oh, I get it just fine, boJ!
Does one pay for a gift?
Isn't that amazing?!
And I see how dberrie has responded to you with his obsession quoting Rom. 5:18...
But how do you get to Rom. 5:18?
He has to IGNORE Rom. 3:10-20 (which emphasizes our sin, and our inability to keep the law);
He has to IGNORE Rom. 4:1-6, which explains the difference between a "wage" (quid pro quo) and a "gift";
He has to IGNORE Rom. 5:1-5, which defines the CONTEXT of Rom. 5;
And then he has to STOP READING before he gets to Rom. 6:23:
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That is the TEXTBOOK definition of "cherry-picking".
Theo1689
Well-known member
First of all, Bonnie's beliefs are OFF-TOPIC here.
Second of all, I don't remember EVER reading any Christian say they "apply their faith to the gift".
Misrepresentation much?
First of all, Bonnie's beliefs are OFF-TOPIC here.
Second of all, I don't remember EVER reading any Christian say they "add their faith to the gift".
Misrepresentation much?
This is probably why CARM rules require you to provide LINKED QUOTES when presuming to make claims about what others have allegedly said.
Bonnie
Super Member
Faith itself is the "gift of God." Remember that Paul wrote, "For
it is by grace you are saved, THROUGH FAITH--and that is not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."
Grace is the gift of God. Faith is the gift of God. Erernal life is the gift of God. The whole shebang is the "Gift of God"!
What part of "gift of God" do you not understand?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Again--you are confusing the free gift of the Resurrection and Atonement with the consequence of one's choices.
As the scriptures state--the Atonement and resurrection is a free gift to all mankind--and our choices can't change that. It was God alone which provided that gift, with His Blood--and it remains a gift, regardless to, and independent of --anyone's choices, or the consequence of those choices.
The free gift set all men free, and all became born saved because of it. All men were released from the condemnation of the Fall--as a free gift to all men.
Hell can't change that--heaven never will.
It's the same way, as to the freedom the best blood of this nation was shed to deliver us from bondage. All men are born free in America. That is a great gift to mankind here--and those who violate that freedom, and spend their time in jail can't change the fact their freedom is a wonderful gift--they of all people would testify to that.
So--what gift is freedom to those who spend their lives in jail? A wonderful gift, indeed. Just ask them.
What part of "free gift to all men" don't you understand? Why are you preaching one has to earn the free gift?
If it went to all men--and all men don't believe--then it stands to reason the free gift wasn't based on belief, but rather--on God's perfection:
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
But it wasn't with one's faith that Jesus pleased God unto His Atonement and Resurrection. It had nothing to do with your faith, and everything to do with Jesus Christ's perfect Blood sacrifice.
You can't earn that, Bonnie--with your faith. It had nothing to do with your faith--as the Atonement and resurrection was finished, and complete before you were ever born--and "came upon all men"--when Jesus Christ finished it. Nailed to the cross. Jesus Christ plus nothing.
You are the one who claims one has to earn the free gift--not me.
Such as this?
Funday Monday 1: How much did Solomon's Temple cost?
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Use...Temple_cost%3F
Solomon's Temple, built in the 10th Century BC, by King Solomon of Israel son of King David of Israel. While no evidence stands for or against the existence of such a temple and no extra-biblical evidence has been found of it, its existence is probable due to the many biblical references from many different authors and time periods.
The temple was said to have a great quantity of gold, silver, bronze, and other precious metals. The temple consisted of several layers, with the Most Holy Place housing the Ark of the Covenant in the center.
So, how much did Solomon's temple cost? The amount of gold, silver and bronze, along with other precious metals are recorded in various places in the Bible.
1 Chronicles 22:14- 100,000 talents of gold, 1 million talents of silver, quantities of bronze and iron too great to be weighted.
1 Chronicles 29:3- 3,000 talents of gold, 7,000 talents of silver from David's personal treasures.
1 Chronicles 29:7- 5,002.5 talents of gold, 10,000 talents of silver, 18,000 talents of bronze, 100,000 talents of iron from the leaders of Israel.
1 Kings 5:10- King Hiram of Tyre gave Solomon many cedar trees for the temple.
In total, over 108,002.5 talents of gold, 1,017,000 talents of silver, and quantities of bronze much greater than that. A great quantity of cedar trees were used- so many, in fact, that Solomon had to pay King Hiram with 20 towns in Galilee! (1 Kings 9:11)
108,002.5 talents of gold would beg an incredible amount of gold. One talent was approximately 75 pounds, so 108,002.5 talents would be a mind-boggling 8,100,187.5 pounds of gold. 1,017,000 talents of silver would be an equally mind-boggling 76,275,000 pounds of silver! Excluding the bronze, and using the average current price of gold, the gold alone of Solomon's temple would have been an astonishing $194,404,500,000. The silver would have been $22,199,076,000. Added together, the gold and silver used along in Solomon's Temple was worth $216,603,576,000. This does not include all the precious metals, bronze, iron, ivory, or cedar wood used in the temple. Extrapolating from the number, the total cost of Solomon's temple including the labor costs (153,000 forced laborers) would have been well over half a billion, a cost simply unimaginable in today's world for one building. Building the temple took over seven years.
Jesus did refer to the temple, when He walked in it as a mortal--as "my Father's House"? What criticism do you have for Jesus to make such a comment for such a lavishly decorated, expensive temple?
That's right, Bonnie. Paid it in full.
So--why are you pawning the idea we have to earn the free gift by applying our faith?
Catherineaurelia
Well-known member
So, big deal - Mormons tithe. But they tithe to a multi-billion dollar organization that gives very little of its gross to charity, and invests most of it (using Ensign) in real estate. The Mormons own a vast amount of property in Florida. Furthermore, Christians tithe as led by the Holy Spirit to give. Mormons are coerced to tithe by a cult which teaches they cannot go to some "highest heaven" without tithing to their organization. It's a godless belief.
Bonnie
Super Member
Those is false, dberrie. Show me where I ever wrote this on here.
Bonnie
Super Member
I am not confused, dberrie.
Do you know the difference in your church between the Resurrection and Eternal life?
I do. Do you?
The Jews only had one temple, though it had to be rebuilt and was expanded. ONE. Not dozens. What was done in that temple was commanded by God, but is now obsolete. What goes on in Mormon temples is dead, occultist works done to a false god, warmed over Masonic rituals with a Mormon twist.....plus, a video depicting a butchered and perverted version of the Creation and Fall stories from Genesis, that is shown to the gullible attendees who sit through the Endowment ceremony, thinking this is what will help get them to godhood in the CK after death...
Poor, poor deluded people....
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Bonnie
Super Member
Of course. But not all will receive that great gift, but many will reject it.
I never added anything to what Jesus did to "validate" it. But Paul DID write that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, and it is not OUR doing, but the gift of God, and NOT by works, so no one may boast.
Paul also wrote, in Rom. 5, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."
He wrote these things, I did not. Take it up with PAUL if you don't like it.
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brotherofJared
Well-known member
That is one of the things that the atonement wrought. But the free gift was the atonement and all that it wrought which includes allowing men to determine their own destiny by the things which they do. For me that is the freedom of choice. Before the atonement, that choice was taken from us by the act of one man. And by the same token, the actual one man, the freedom to choose was restored. In effect we are all able to make our own decision about whether we will partake of the fruit of that tree or of the tree of life. The choice is now yours.
It doesn't matter either way. No one can reject it. Christ did it all great and free. No action is required on our part. Everyone will be resurrected, after that their works will separate the goats from the sheep.
If the have to did something, then it isn't free.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Regardless of your animus, according to the scriptures they will be raised to life. Your argument is with the scriptures.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
If you have time do something to get it, then it's not free. The scriptures clearly testify that the free gift went to all the same people who died because of Adam's transgression. No one has to accept that or reject it. The free gift went to all men. We do differentiate, you don't. Those who will receive life will do so only based on their works. Eternal life requires obedience to the laws of the gospel until the end of your life.
Catherineaurelia
Well-known member
Sadly, Mormons are blinded by Satan and cannot see that "good works" are the fruit of salvation and not the means to it. They ignore Ephesians 2. Only the Holy Spirit of God can take the blinders off.
If you have time do something to get it, then it's not free. The scriptures clearly testify that the free gift went to all the same people who died because of Adam's transgression. No one has to accept that or reject it. The free gift went to all men. We do differentiate, you don't. Those who will receive life will do so only based on their works. Eternal life requires obedience to the laws of the gospel until the end of your life.
LOL... it was a typo and you know it, I meant 2/3's I have told you this scores of times, 1/3 did not.
As far as a citation....
"Through His atoning sacrifice, our sins are remitted. With the exception of sons of perdition, the Atonement is available to everyone all the time, no matter how large or small the sin, “on conditions of repentance.” ..... This is from a talk by Elder C. Scott Grow at GC in 2011. Here
A ask gramps article, which is not official LDS doctrine, but it very easy to understand and show how IMO LDS theology demand my position....
There is no way you can get around 1/3 of HF children not qualifying for the atonement because of their disobedience in the premortal world, and the other 2/3's qualifying for the atonement and its conditional rewards....again according to LDS theology. It is, per Grow " “on conditions of repentance.” DB, how is that free?