1 Cor 12:3

[Howie]

With that statement in bold, @cadwell continues to put the cart before the horse. He continues to believe that dead, unregenerate sinners can please God by their own will. That clearly contradicts God's description of the unregenerate in Rom 8:6-8.

On the basis of Paul's statement in Rom 8, @cadwell's statement, "Faith is first," can be tossed out, prima facie. None of the scripture he cites is of any value to his position until the issue of the dead is resolved.

For now, I'll leave it at that, as @cadwell has me on ignore. Becsuse of that, I invite any of you who are opposed to the Pelagian notion that man is not harmed by Adam's fall and can do anything God commands to feel free to use anything I say in your arguments agsinst @cadwell's position.

I'll wait to see if @cadwell engages with me. If he doesn't, I'll jump back in and speak to the issue.

@cadwell still has not dealt with this. ^^

Here is the link to my entire post.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, you missed the point.....your soul is likened to the dead man at the bottom of the lake....dead in its sins and trespasses. Not drowning waiting to be saved but dead. Only God can regenerate you as man needs regeneration...not a life preserver where all you have to do is clutch onto it.

Just like those bones in Ezekiel 37 did not need to hear Ezekiel proclaim what the LORD told him to say...wait!! What?

 

[Howie]

How does the bible say ears are circumcised?

The same way the heart is circumcised -- by regeneration (Rom 2:29).

 

[Reformedguy]

Just like confession is faith? There is no obedience in verse 27, you read that into the text.

”Through faith” places faith first. If you’re in Kentucky, and I say you need to go south “through Tennessee“ to get to Georgia, which comes first? TN or GA?

The mention is of “cleansing of sin” which the NT reveals is through faith.

Says who? Certainly not scripture.

And faith (Heb 11:3). It’s not one or the other, it’s both. When it comes to which is first, the Bible says we receive the Spirit by hearing of faith. How did you get around that?

Faith comes by hearing.

And also in the Spirit. Gal 5:25. You receive the Spirit by hearing of faith.

Amen. Nothing about obedience.

Walking is obedience. What's a statute or decree God is causing you walk in? Tell us what walk means.

No it don't. "Saved by grace through faith". Which comes first?

Already did that. You understand by the Spirit. You don't have faith in something you don't understand. Same in Ezeliel 36. First the Spirit and then you WALK in God's statutes and decrees.

Your indwelt by the Spirit when you come to faith.

Do you have anything new or are you just going to repeat yourself?

 

[cadwell]

Well, you missed the point.....your soul is likened to the dead man at the bottom of the lake....dead in its sins and trespasses. Not drowning waiting to be saved but dead. Only God can regenerate you as man needs regeneration...not a life preserver where all you have to do is clutch onto it.

I got the point, and its why I hate analogies. Neither one in this case, "the gospel is a life preserver God tosses you" or "dead man at bottom of the lake God jumps in, find, and performs CPR" are scriptural. If we were being scriptural, the dead man at the bottom of the lake would start this analogy alive. Having the man now dead in sins and trespasses, all Jesus would need to do is speak to the man, and that dead man would hear His voice. Lazarus? The healing of the centurions servant?

 

[cadwell]

Just like those bones in Ezekiel 37 did not need to hear Ezekiel proclaim what the LORD told him to say...wait!! What?

What are the bones doing in 37:4? What did God command the bones to do in verse 4, before the breath and life?

 

[cadwell]

Walking is obedience. What's a statute or decree God is causing you walk in? Tell us what walk means.

In the OT the word there means "go forth". God causes us to walk, go forth, in faith (2 Cor 5:7). The faith already came with the cleansing of sin. Now that we are a new creature, we go forth, in faith.

No it don't. "Saved by grace through faith". Which comes first?

It was first according to the passage we were discussing. Now this new passage you just brought up, grace is there before anyone believes, but we only access this grace by faith (Rom 5:2), so in that regard its still faith first, then access to the already present grace of God.

Already did that. You understand by the Spirit.

Half the story.

Through faith we understand....Heb 11:3a

I believe both, not one over the other.

You don't have faith in something you don't understand.

Thats your own reasoning.

Same in Ezeliel 36. First the Spirit and then you WALK in God's statutes and decrees.

Cleansing of sin came before that. Which the NT reveals is through faith.

Your indwelt by the Spirit when you come to faith.

The Spirit is given to those who obey, in this case, the command to believe. Thats done before the Spirit, not after.

Do you have anything new or are you just going to repeat yourself?

I'm repeating myself because you are making the same defeated arguments. If you want, you can get to work on all these questions you have been avoiding:

You never answered HOW God cleansed you as He promised in Ez 36:25?

You never addressed how Ez 36:25-27 follows the exact same pattern (removal of sin before new heart/spirit) in FOUR other passages???

You never explained how you were able to obtain a promise of God before faith, in light of what the word says in Heb 6:12, and 11:33?

You never answered to why you believe one needs the Spirit to obtain faith, seeing what the bible says in Gal 3:2, 5, and 14?

We have no idea how you reconcile your beliefs with Acts 5:32, since you wont even mention it.

 

[Reformedguy]

In the OT the word there means "go forth". God causes us to walk, go forth, in faith (2 Cor 5:7). The faith already came with the cleansing of sin. Now that we are a new creature, we go forth, in faith.

It was first according to the passage we were discussing. Now this new passage you just brought up, grace is there before anyone believes, but we only access this grace by faith (Rom 5:2), so in that regard its still faith first, then access to the already present grace of God.

Half the story.

Through faith we understand....Heb 11:3a

I believe both, not one over the other.

Thats your own reasoning.

Cleansing of sin came before that. Which the NT reveals is through faith.

The Spirit is given to those who obey, in this case, the command to believe. Thats done before the Spirit, not after.

I'm repeating myself because you are making the same defeated arguments. If you want, you can get to work on all these questions you have been avoiding:

You never answered HOW God cleansed you as He promised in Ez 36:25?

You never addressed how Ez 36:25-27 follows the exact same pattern (removal of sin before new heart/spirit) in FOUR other passages???

You never explained how you were able to obtain a promise of God before faith, in light of what the word says in Heb 6:12, and 11:33?

You never answered to why you believe one needs the Spirit to obtain faith, seeing what the bible says in Gal 3:2, 5, and 14?

We have no idea how you reconcile your beliefs with Acts 5:32, since you wont even mention it.

More of the same.

More proof texts you simply ignore. You prefer the Bible contradict it self.

A few of your points I will address because there dumb.

Your alleged proof text in Hebrews is written to believers. It does not refer to unbelievers. That woukd be the audience relevance thing you dismissed. Like context.

It's not given to those who obey. It's given so they do obey. Ezekiel 36.

It's given so one understands the things of God which you can only do by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:1-14.

Should have stuck to watching wrestling. I'm sure it's quite informative

 

[cadwell]

More of the same.

You keep saying the same thing, I keep saying the same thing.

More proof texts you simply ignore. You prefer the Bible contradict it self.

Your doctrine is being contradicted, the bible is not. I've said it multiple times now, BOTH VERSES are true, it isnt one over the other.

A few of your points I will address because there dumb.

This should be fun.

Your alleged proof text in Hebrews is written to believers. It does not refer to unbelievers. That woukd be the audience relevance thing you dismissed. Like context.

None of this changes the truth of these words:

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

If I said this to a group of atheists, does that mean it isnt truth anymore? Hebrews is true regardless of the audience. It doesnt say "unbelievers" receive the promises of God, believers do. An unbeliever believes, and obtains the promises of God.

It's not given to those who obey.

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him..

HE is given to those who obey, despite your rebellion.

It's given so they do obey. Ezekiel 36.

There is zero obedience mentioned in Ez 36:27.

It's given so one understands the things of God which you can only do by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:1-14.

You can only receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, Gal 3. Or did you receive the Spirit apart from faith? What "spirit" did you receive?

Should have stuck to watching wrestling. I'm sure it's quite informative

I didnt watch wrestling, I watched this show called Battle Bots. Two teams of robotics engineers make robots that fight each other. It was fantastic, I am planning to watch another episode this evening. This one robot had a circular saw at the bottom of it, and everytime the other robot got close, it would slice it up! Some had hammers, one even shot fire!

 

[Reformedguy]

You keep saying the same thing, I keep saying the same thing.

Your doctrine is being contradicted, the bible is not. I've said it multiple times now, BOTH VERSES are true, it isnt one over the other.

This should be fun.

None of this changes the truth of these words:

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

If I said this to a group of atheists, does that mean it isnt truth anymore? Hebrews is true regardless of the audience. It doesnt say "unbelievers" receive the promises of God, believers do. An unbeliever believes, and obtains the promises of God.


Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him..

HE is given to those who obey, despite your rebellion.

There is zero obedience mentioned in Ez 36:27.

You can only receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, Gal 3. Or did you receive the Spirit apart from faith? What "spirit" did you receive?

I didnt watch wrestling, I watched this show called Battle Bots. Two teams of robotics engineers make robots that fight each other. It was fantastic, I am planning to watch another episode this evening. This one robot had a circular saw at the bottom of it, and everytime the other robot got close, it would slice it up! Some had hammers, one even shot fire!

Actually yours is. How would you know anyway Mr who cares about context and audience relevance. Who woukd take you seriously anyway?

Through, not because of. The proof texter goes down again. Got any more?

What is walking in God's commands and decrees? If not obedience what?

Battle bots? Lol Now your talking. What network is that on?

 

[CrowCross]

I got the point, and its why I hate analogies. Neither one in this case, "the gospel is a life preserver God tosses you" or "dead man at bottom of the lake God jumps in, find, and performs CPR" are scriptural. If we were being scriptural, the dead man at the bottom of the lake would start this analogy alive. Having the man now dead in sins and trespasses, all Jesus would need to do is speak to the man, and that dead man would hear His voice. Lazarus? The healing of the centurions servant?

I just started a post to discuss this analogy.

 

[CrowCross]

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him..

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[Howie]

It was first according to the passage we were discussing.

Which indicates it's not first elsewhere. Everything in the universe has the same first cause, @cadwell and it's not faith. do you know what it is?

Now this new passage you just brought up, grace is there before anyone believes, but we only access this grace by faith (Rom 5:2), so in that regard its still faith first, then access to the already present grace of God.

smh

Through faith we understand....Heb 11:3a

By logic, I know a text without a context is a pretext

The Spirit is given to those who obey, in this case, the command to believe. Thats done before the Spirit, not after.

Dead men can't obey God (Rom 8:6-8). In order to do anything, a dead man must first be brought to life.

I'm repeating myself because you are making the same defeated arguments.

You're arguments have been refuted.

If you want, you can get to work on all these questions you have been avoiding:

LOL. Project much?

You never answered HOW God cleansed you as He promised in Ez 36:25?

By grace, through faith in Christ.

You've never answer how dead men can do anything without being first regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

You never addressed how Ez 36:25-27 follows the exact same pattern (removal of sin before new heart/spirit) in FOUR other passages???

You've never addressed how in all of those passages God is the active cause of Israel's salvation while Israel is the passive recipient of God's grace in her salvation ... the same is true of your salvation.

You never explained how you were able to obtain a promise of God before faith, in light of what the word says in Heb 6:12, and 11:33?

A text without a context is a pretext.

Because the greater reason for obtaining God's promises is not found in the verses you cite, but in Heb 6:13-20 -- the faithfulness of God and the hope He set before me, which hope is the anchor of my soul.

You never answered to why you believe one needs the Spirit to obtain faith, seeing what the bible says in Gal 3:2, 5, and 14?

Sure I have. Because faith a gift of God (Eph 2:8ff), and dead men have no faith. They are dead. In order to obtain faith, dead men must first be made alive

We have no idea how you reconcile your beliefs with Acts 5:32, since you wont even mention it.

A text without a context is a pretect.

If you had been paying attention to everything I said, and to all of scripture, you would know the answer to that.

 

[Howie]

You keep saying the same thing, I keep saying the same thing.

Your doctrine is being contradicted, the bible is not. I've said it multiple times now, BOTH VERSES are true, it isnt one over the other.

This should be fun.

None of this changes the truth of these words:

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

If I said this to a group of atheists, does that mean it isnt truth anymore? Hebrews is true regardless of the audience. It doesnt say "unbelievers" receive the promises of God, believers do. An unbeliever believes, and obtains the promises of God.


Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him..

HE is given to those who obey, despite your rebellion.

There is zero obedience mentioned in Ez 36:27.

You can only receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, Gal 3. Or did you receive the Spirit apart from faith? What "spirit" did you receive?

I didnt watch wrestling, I watched this show called Battle Bots. Two teams of robotics engineers make robots that fight each other. It was fantastic, I am planning to watch another episode this evening. This one robot had a circular saw at the bottom of it, and everytime the other robot got close, it would slice it up! Some had hammers, one even shot fire!

Driving the Final Nail into the lid of your OP's Coffiin:

The final statement in 12:3 informs the church that no one has the ability to say Jesus is my Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

It is a primary requirement of initial faith to salvation to acknowledgr JESUS IS LORD (Rom 10:9), and 1 Cor 12:3 informs YOU that no one, on his own, has the ability to do that; therefore, regeneration MUST PRECEDE FAITH.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[cadwell]

Actually yours is. How would you know anyway Mr who cares about context and audience relevance. Who woukd take you seriously anyway?

That is a misrepresentation. You keep making claims about context, as if it renders biblical statements false. Promises are obtained through faith is true in any context, and you seek to invalidate the claim.

Through, not because of. The proof texter goes down again. Got any more?

You havent gotten past this one, arguing the notion that Heb 6:12 isnt true, or means something other than what it plainly states, because "context". How did you obtain a promise from God, without faith? The bible says that is how promises are obtained, and it said it to people who had received the promise. Since they got it one way, does that mean no one else will? What even is your contention?

What is walking in God's commands and decrees? If not obedience what?

Faith. We walk in faith, having obeyed the command to believe. You walk in Christ should not be reduced to a series of obeyed commands. That causes dullness of hearing, which is what got the hebrews in trouble in the first place.

Battle bots? Lol Now your talking. What network is that on?

I saw it on GSN (Game Show Network), but a few people have told me it comes on Discovery Channel as well.

 

[Howie]

You havent gotten past this one, arguing the notion that Heb 6:12 isnt true, or means something other than what it plainly states, because "context". How did you obtain a promise from God, without faith?

By first being regenerated by the Spirit 1 Cor 12:3

 

[Howie]

Faith. We walk in faith, having obeyed the command to believe. You walk in Christ should not be reduced to a series of obeyed commands. That causes dullness of hearing, which is what got the hebrews in trouble in the first place.

Regeneration is first 1 Cor 12:3

 

[cadwell]

Like 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Howie]

Like 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

That's not what Paul is talking about, kid. He's talking about Roms 10:9 and Jn 6:44

Jn 6:44 ... οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν,

1 Cor 12:3b ... οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν, Κύριος Ἰησοῦς, εἰ μὴ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳo

same/same ... no one has the power to come to Jesus and believe in Jesus on their own ... by their own free will.

The dead can do nothing on their own -- they're dead

 

[Reformedguy]

That is a misrepresentation. You keep making claims about context, as if it renders biblical statements false. Promises are obtained through faith is true in any context, and you seek to invalidate the claim.

You havent gotten past this one, arguing the notion that Heb 6:12 isnt true, or means something other than what it plainly states, because "context". How did you obtain a promise from God, without faith? The bible says that is how promises are obtained, and it said it to people who had received the promise. Since they got it one way, does that mean no one else will? What even is your contention?

Faith. We walk in faith, having obeyed the command to believe. You walk in Christ should not be reduced to a series of obeyed commands. That causes dullness of hearing, which is what got the hebrews in trouble in the first place.

I saw it on GSN (Game Show Network), but a few people have told me it comes on Discovery Channel as well.

You did not say who cares about context? Gow about someone who takes the word of God seriously.

And it's faith that is caused by God.

I got by it easily. It's written to believers. People who already possess faith. Look up audience relevance. Do some homework instead of watching Battle Bots.

The command you believe after the heart of flesh, the Spirit put in you and then you walk in God's commands, decrees, judgements. Are you commanded to believe? See 1 John 3:23.