1 John 5:1 Naively Wrenched.

J

Jabez

Active member
Bondage to a busy yet naive Systematic yields a reading there of God's Word which forces a sequence of spiritual rebirth to precede faith.

Here in 5:1 John's Gennao "born" in the perfect tense does not require the arbitrary white knuckled assertion to specify a completed action resulting in present tense pisteuo "believeth."

Since context and the writer's previous demonstration of a perfect tense aspect carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis, it is far more correct to follow the writer's antecedent example shown in John 3:18. There, perfect tense gennao "born" easily follows after the same present tense of krino, "is not condemned."

Further prepondering examples of perfect tenses not preceding present tense action are in:

Ez. 18:30-32, Acts 12:18, 36, & 15:19, John 1:12-13, 5:40, 6:53-57, 20:31, Gal. 3:3, 5 & 26, Eph. 1:13, Col. 2:12, II Cor. 3:14-16, I Tim. 1:16, and James 1:18.

I John 5:1 and the surrounding context show John speaking to the ongoing aspects of sanctification rather than faith unto salvation. It is a marker of Godliness to receive gentle correction without launching into off topic adhomimen, such as the policy of burning detractors at the stake.
 
Jabez said:
Bondage to a busy yet naive Systematic yields a reading there of God's Word which forces a sequence of spiritual rebirth to precede faith.

Here in 5:1 John's Gennao "born" in the perfect tense does not require the arbitrary white knuckled assertion to specify a completed action resulting in present tense pisteuo "believeth."

Since context and the writer's previous demonstration of a perfect tense aspect carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis, it is far more correct to follow the writer's antecedent example shown in John 3:18. There, perfect tense gennao "born" easily follows after the same present tense of krino, "is not condemned."

Further prepondering examples of perfect tenses not preceding present tense action are in:

Ez. 18:30-32, Acts 12:18, 36, & 15:19, John 1:12-13, 5:40, 6:53-57, 20:31, Gal. 3:3, 5 & 26, Eph. 1:13, Col. 2:12, II Cor. 3:14-16, I Tim. 1:16, and James 1:18.

I John 5:1 and the surrounding context show John speaking to the ongoing aspects of sanctification rather than faith unto salvation. It is a marker of Godliness to receive gentle correction without launching into off topic adhomimen, such as the policy of burning detractors at the stake.
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See also



1 John 5:1

First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”

This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples.



John 3:18 furnishes another clear example: 'but whoever does not believe [present substantival participle] has been condemned [perfect Indicative] already because he has not believed [perfect indicative] in the name of the one and only son of God' . Again the text tells us explicitly that the action of the present participle (disbelieving) is the cause of the action of the perfect indicative (condemning).





Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar . . ..” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause. David Allen quoting Brian Absciano

but as you state John is not extolling the ordo salutis but is identifying the characteristics of one born of God

1 John 4:7-21 (KJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
 
fltom said:
See also



1 John 5:1

First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”

This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples.



John 3:18 furnishes another clear example: 'but whoever does not believe [present substantival participle] has been condemned [perfect Indicative] already because he has not believed [perfect indicative] in the name of the one and only son of God' . Again the text tells us explicitly that the action of the present participle (disbelieving) is the cause of the action of the perfect indicative (condemning).





Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar . . ..” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause. David Allen quoting Brian Absciano

but as you state John is not extolling the ordo salutis but is identifying the characteristics of one born of God

1 John 4:7-21 (KJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
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Yes, well restated. Praise God for His ongoing Mercy.
 
Jabez said:
Since context and the writer's previous demonstration of a perfect tense aspect carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis,
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"Mere" grammatic exegesis?!

What is your evidence that context (which you ignore, btw) "carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis"?

And if context is so important, then why do you RUN AWAY from the immediate context of 1 John (2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18), and you run to books NOT written by John, and even to Hebrew Scriptures?!

Jabez said:
it is far more correct to follow the writer's antecedent example shown in John 3:18. There, perfect tense gennao "born" easily follows after the same present tense of krino, "is not condemned."
Click to expand...

Um, nope,.
The "perfect tense gennao 'born' " doesn' even OCCUR in John 3:18!

Jabez said:
Further prepondering examples of perfect tenses not preceding present tense action are in:
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm not sure what your point is, or what you're trying to prove. Going to DIFFERENT syntactical expressions has no bearing on what the ORIGINAL construction means.

If you wanted to make a point, it would have made more sense to try to find the same construction, especially by John, and try to argue that it meant something different.

Jabez said:
Ez. 18:30-32,
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Well, Ezra is written according to Hebrew grammar, not Greek, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't written by John.


Jabez said:
Acts 12:18, 36, & 15:19, John 1:12-13, 5:40, 6:53-57, 20:31, Gal. 3:3, 5 & 26, Eph. 1:13, Col. 2:12, II Cor. 3:14-16, I Tim. 1:16, and James 1:18.
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I'm not going to waste my time going through all these, since you couldn't be bothered presenting an argument with them. I'll go through a few...

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 12:18.

There's no "Acts 12:36" in the Bible.

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 15:19.

There's no perfect tense verb in John 1:12-13.
And "born of God" in verse 13 is aorist, not perfect, so no comparison.

I'm not going to waste my time going through the rest of your citations.

Jabez said:
I John 5:1 and the surrounding context show John speaking to the ongoing aspects of sanctification rather than faith unto salvation.
Click to expand...

Where do you get THAT from the context?!
 
Theo1689 said:
"Mere" grammatic exegesis?!

What is your evidence that context (which you ignore, btw) "carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis"?

And if context is so important, then why do you RUN AWAY from the immediate context of 1 John (2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18), and you run to books NOT written by John, and even to Hebrew Scriptures?!



Um, nope,.
The "perfect tense gennao 'born' " doesn' even OCCUR in John 3:18!



First of all, I'm not sure what your point is, or what you're trying to prove. Going to DIFFERENT syntactical expressions has no bearing on what the ORIGINAL construction means.

If you wanted to make a point, it would have made more sense to try to find the same construction, especially by John, and try to argue that it meant something different.



Well, Ezra is written according to Hebrew grammar, not Greek, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't written by John.




I'm not going to waste my time going through all these, since you couldn't be bothered presenting an argument with them. I'll go through a few...

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 12:18.

There's no "Acts 12:36" in the Bible.

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 15:19.

There's no perfect tense verb in John 1:12-13.
And "born of God" in verse 13 is aorist, not perfect, so no comparison.

I'm not going to waste my time going through the rest of your citations.



Where do you get THAT from the context?!
Click to expand...
Thankfully, Calvin is not here to behead and quarter people. The Arian JWs and Mormons appreciate that. Remember, Paul specified to withhold judgment upon these types of matters.
 
Theo1689 said:
Why are you so obsessed with "Calvin"?




Then maybe you should obey him, instead of trying to condemn others or calling them "Satanic".
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Actually, Calvin did serve a purpose unto God's Appointed People. Calvin's workings are self evident as an identifier.
 
Theo1689 said:
Where do you get THAT from the context?!
Click to expand...
That John is discussing the characteristic of one born again is rather clear from the context

1 John 4:7-21 (NIV2011)
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

1 John 5:1-5 (NIV2011)
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
 
Theo1689 said:
"Mere" grammatic exegesis?!

What is your evidence that context (which you ignore, btw) "carries far more authority than mere grammatic exegesis"?

And if context is so important, then why do you RUN AWAY from the immediate context of 1 John (2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18), and you run to books NOT written by John, and even to Hebrew Scriptures?!



Um, nope,.
The "perfect tense gennao 'born' " doesn' even OCCUR in John 3:18!



First of all, I'm not sure what your point is, or what you're trying to prove. Going to DIFFERENT syntactical expressions has no bearing on what the ORIGINAL construction means.

If you wanted to make a point, it would have made more sense to try to find the same construction, especially by John, and try to argue that it meant something different.



Well, Ezra is written according to Hebrew grammar, not Greek, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't written by John.




I'm not going to waste my time going through all these, since you couldn't be bothered presenting an argument with them. I'll go through a few...

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 12:18.

There's no "Acts 12:36" in the Bible.

There's no perfect tense verb in Acts 15:19.

There's no perfect tense verb in John 1:12-13.
And "born of God" in verse 13 is aorist, not perfect, so no comparison.

I'm not going to waste my time going through the rest of your citations.



Where do you get THAT from the context?!
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Amen!! Another person quoting from a book he read not having any idea what he is reading.
 
Reformedguy said:
Am I?

Figured I would ask a question so you disappear
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Yes you are

you still have not supplied complete and rational answers to

If faith is a gift from God,



1) how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)?



2)If faith is a gift why does God harden to prevent belief John 12:40



3) If faith is an irresistible gift how can any harden themselves against it Acts 28:27, Heb 3:8, 15; 4:7



4) If faith is a gift Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)?



5) If faith is a gift why does Christ marvel at great faith Matthew 8:10



6) If faith is a gift why did Jesus speak to men in parables to prevent understanding (Matthew 13:13, 35)



7) If faith is a gift from God irresistibly given how is it some only have a temporary faith (1Tim 1:5,6; 2Tim 4:4



None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
 
fltom said:
Yes you are

you still have not supplied complete and rational answers to

If faith is a gift from God,



1) how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)?



2)If faith is a gift why does God harden to prevent belief John 12:40



3) If faith is an irresistible gift how can any harden themselves against it Acts 28:27, Heb 3:8, 15; 4:7



4) If faith is a gift Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)?



5) If faith is a gift why does Christ marvel at great faith Matthew 8:10



6) If faith is a gift why did Jesus speak to men in parables to prevent understanding (Matthew 13:13, 35)



7) If faith is a gift from God irresistibly given how is it some only have a temporary faith (1Tim 1:5,6; 2Tim 4:4



None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.i
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I can debunk your dumb questions with one proof text.

Romans 11:36 "For from Him and through Him and to Him ARE ALL THINGS.

Faith comes from Christ, it is a gift. You should really thank Him. Let's hear it
 
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