Josheb
Well-known member
Then that mention is non sequitur.
Since you've just proven the points about being offered membership in NATO and possessing Soviet nukes I don't have to provide references for that. You think those things are immaterial because they were a long time ago or there were mitigating circumstances but the fact remains there is a history between those two countries in which the US and Europe have been involved. If you're Russian it's important. If you're Ukrainian it's important. Your dismissiveness is evidence of the problem to be solved: American ignorance.
I completely agree with you the sources on SS-tattooed Ukrainian soldiers are dubious but that's because of two-ended problem: propaganda. If it's proven there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine then western support for Ukraine evaporates overnight. The Russians, of course, are no stranger to state-run propaganda and quite adept at manufacturing any information they like, like stripping fighters to make a video log of their tattoos. And for the record: everyone is fighting in Ukraine. The fighters are not in the UK Army, so they wouldn't be expected to be wearing Ukrainian Army uniforms. Reuters reported,
"To be clear, the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections, and Ukrainians reacted with alarm to the National Militia’s demonstration in Kiev. But connections between law enforcement agencies and extremists give Ukraine’s Western allies ample reason for concern. "
The Guardian found the Azov brigade had many members with Nazi tattoos and far-right nationalist views. One claimed Putin is a Jew (Putin is Eastern Orthodox but, ironically, Zelensky's ancestors were Jewish).
indent]""Of course not, it's all made up, there are just a lot of people who are interested in Nordic mythology," said one fighter when asked if there were neo-Nazis in the battalion. When asked what his own political views were, however, he said "national socialist". As for the swastika tattoos on at least one man seen at the Azov base, "the swastika has nothing to do with the Nazis, it was an ancient sun symbol," he claimed."[/indent]
It's just an interest in Nordic mythology.
As to the prevalence of Russians and Russian culture in Ukraine, a third of the country speaks Russian and 17% of the population is ethnic Russian. Culturally, that's a slightly greater percentage than Blacks in America, and linguistically that's comparable to Spanish in the US. A Wilson Center Poll found,
"We asked our sample of respondents whether they saw Russia and Ukraine as completely different nations. The older generations tend to see fewer differences from Russia. While 78 percent of respondents under 45 years old see Russia and Ukraine as completely different nations, only 64 percent of those age 45 and older agreed with this statement. Similarly, whereas 57 percent of respondents under 45 years believe there are strong differences between Ukrainian and Russian citizens, only 44 percent of those age 45 years and older hold a similar view. When asked about the similarity of Russian and Ukrainian culture, 40 percent of respondents under 30 years strongly disagreed that there is any similarity. This percentage declined through each age group, from 33 percent for respondents ages 30–44 years old respondents to 29 percent for respondents ages 45–59 years old and 20 percent for those age 60 years and older."
And as to the Russian budget for military spending, Wiki places it at $65 billion. Estimates on US totals vary from $45-52 billion. We spent $3-4 billion in 16 years in Afghanistan.
Now here's the rub. I am not sure I believe any of it! That is the problem. We should know the facts of US involvement in Ukraine, beginning with (but limited to) the specific goals of our involvement and how and where taxpayer money is spent, if for no other reasons than the fact there is no stated goal, exorbitant amounts are being spent, and the US has a long history of screwing things up that way.
The evidence of your caring is somewhat suspect because there are matters it appears you don't know. If you cared then you'd investigate better.
The Russian war with Ukraine first began in 2014 when Russia annexed and then occupied Crimea. We've had plenty of time to formulate a plan that identifies goals and means. We just passed the one-year anniversary of the currenttconflict (February 24, 2022). We've had a year to "formulate," and you think we're "probably" doing it a year into this war after having spend $40+ billion.
And you say you care.
Evidence says otherwise.
The real reason I knew to bring up these matters is because I have Christian friends in both Russia and Ukraine and missionaries have come to my fellowship. I've heard many mixed, conflicting stories. I don't cite any of them because anecdotal reports are meaningless in a discussion like this. They amount to hearsay.
With due respect, comments like that make you look foolish.
What does Poland have to do with this op?!?!?! This op posts a poll that is divided along political lines within the US. There's no mention of Poland! Poland is irrelevant. My response to this op is to point out the polarized nature of the poll, the implicit dishonesty inherent in politicizing information, especially when the poll could have been structured to highlight common ground instead of differences, especially since we ALL have common concerns that would improve (decrease) the discrepancies - - - like having clearly set and well-articulated goals and knowing how and where the money is spent. If Americans had the answers to those two concerns that poll would likely look much different and you think "that articulation is probably being formulated as we type" and Poland are cogent responses. Aimless profligate spending in a country known for its graft is a problem.
All Americans can and should agree to that.
