Abortion compromise

[Gondwanaland]

Abortion is not a biological issue. It is an issue decided by politics, philosophy, religion, culture, etc.

Abortion is most certainly a biological issue. You are a science denialist.

 

[vibise]

So breathing only matters when you want it to matter. Gotcha.

What matters is life independent of attachment to another being.

Jews mark the first breath as the beginning of life

 

[Gondwanaland]

What matters is life independent of attachment to another being.

No, no it doesn't. You don't have the right to end a life just because you chose to have sex and consented to the chance that said life could form.

Jews mark the first breath as the beginning of life

They also thought locusts had 4 legs.

 

[Nedsk]

Nope.
The dependence of babies on other people is not the same as the dependence of fetuses on their mothers.

So you change your argument to suit your circumstances. Got it.

 

[Nedsk]

Not remotely like that when it comes to abortion.
Choice means just that, the woman gets to choose, and no one's opinion is forced on others.
Dobbs is the opposite allowing states to force all women to follow their dictates.

The Electoral College DOES violate a democratic principles of one person, one vote, and all votes treated equally.

Wow you really do think everyone is as stupid as a liberal. Astounding

 

[rossum]

You don't hear yourself do you? Let's try something easier. Do the mother's fingernails have the same DNA as the mother?

Yes, the mother's fingernails have the same DNA as the mother. A fingernail is not a human being, despite having the same DNA.

I don't think the brain functioning argument follows at all. But first things first.

DNA alone is not sufficient, as shown by fingernails and the placenta. We need something else, as well as just DNA. For me, that 'something else' is a functioning brain.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

The bottom line is this: Americans are almost equally divided on the abortion issue, and these different sides base their views on different assessments of the situation. The 50 years of arguing since RvW have done nothing to move the needle.

I agree.

The compromises outlined by the two sides are not acceptable to the opposition.

What's funny is that there is only one side that's outlined any sort of compromise - mine. You haven't budged a single millimeter. You've offered no compromise at all. None. Zero. Zip. Nothing.

Your side has managed to seize power disproportionate to the size of your segment of the population, and is working to impose your views, clearly religion based, on the whole country, which is unfair and undemocratic.

First, you keep going back to religion. (a) That's irrelevant, and (b) it's wrong. There's all kinds of non-religious reasons to be pro-life, but you keep going there to somehow seek to discredit it. Utter nonsense.

Second, you talk about "imposing" my views. I mean, I guess people "imposed" their views when they said that people couldn't own slaves. I guess people "imposed" their views when they said you couldn't just murder Jews. If your side wins, your view that abortion should be legal will be "imposed" on hundreds of thousands of unborn children each year.

Third, you talk about disproportionality of power. I mean....what in the world? Homosexuals comprise about 5% of the population, yet have "imposed" SSM on society. Transgender people comprise less than 1% of the population, yet have "imposed" their views on classrooms, in the NCAA, all kinds of places.

I think that really, the only fair thing is to allow each woman to make her own decision. If you object to abortion, do not have one. And if you object to abortion, keep arguing your point. Forcible imposition of your position will not work, as there are plenty of work-arounds that will allow most women to abort, except for the poor.

Prohibition did not work, and neither will Dobbs. How will you respond when we start seeing stories about dead women and pain-ridden dying babies with serious genetic defects? Collateral damage, kind of like the victims of gun violence?

Right, so this is your "compromise" - maintaining the EXACT same position you've always had, with NO movement whatsoever.

So please don't even feign to pretend that you are involved in any sort of compromise here. You haven't moved an inch, and you never will.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Rights of different entities can sometimes be in conflict, and where compromise is not possible, rights of one will be prioritized above others.

I prioritize the rights of an actual living human above the rights of a fertilized egg.

You relegate the woman to the status of an inert incubator by prioritizing that egg.

That's such a stupid, stupid, STUPID way of looking at it. I mean, I have seen people twist themselves in knots arguing that the fetus is a "parasite". Which is true on a technicality, but the whole reason that term is used is to cast the unborn in a very negative light. Seeing a normal baby growing inside a womb as a "parasite" is such a twisting of reality, it's scary.

Nobody is "relegating the woman to the status of an inert incubator".

 

[rossum]

Nonsense. We can see the human being develop from the zygote to an embryo to a foetus to a baby to a child etc.
You prerending its not the same entity until it has a brain is just you picking a characteristic. Not relevant, nor logical nor rational

Your "developing" is correct. An acorn is not an oak tree, it is an acorn. It develops into an oak tree, but it is not itself an oak tree.

I am not pretending either. A placenta develops from the zygote in the same way that a baby does, and a placenta is not a human being. The property of "developing from a zygote" is not sufficient to define a human being.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, the mother's fingernails have the same DNA as the mother. A fingernail is not a human being, despite having the same DNA.

But you were claiming the baby isn't a human being because the placenta isn't a human being. Thats completely illogical.

DNA alone is not sufficient, as shown by fingernails and the placenta. We need something else, as well as just DNA. For me, that 'something else' is a functioning brain.

It doesnt show any such thing. But what something IS isnt determined by what else you think is necessary. This is the same error in thinking some people have with being a woman. They think they are a women because they think it. Crazy stuff man.

 

[rossum]

The human being develops, not the placenta.

Complete rubbish. The placenta develops from the zygote. The zygote grows into both the embryo and the placenta.

If the human being begins life when it does, not when you.decide you would like it to

Both the sperm cell and the egg cell are already alive. There is a lot of discussion to be had about what "begins" might mean here.

You do not get to decide either.

 

[glenlogie]

Yes, but I recognize that all those things would only be favored by a small minority and could only be enacted if that minority manipulated the system to gain control of govt.

You are assuming that only a minority favors such things. And given that these things are in place, we would need a long time to disengage. Kind of getting people of an addiction.

 

[Nedsk]

Complete rubbish. The placenta develops from the zygote. The zygote grows into both the embryo and the placenta.

Does placenta keep developing apart from the baby? Does the baby continue to develop apart from the placenta?

Both the sperm cell and the egg cell are already alive. There is a lot of discussion to be had about what "begins" might mean here.

You do not get to decide either.

Separate from each other nothing "begins"

 

[glenlogie]

Just because science and religion can be in opposition, does not make science a religion.

How can a method of collecting data have anything to do with a system of vslues?

 

[Nedsk]

You are assuming that only a minority favors such things. And given that these things are in place, we would need a long time to disengage. Kind of getting people of an addiction.

I like how her implied assumption is that the majority can't manipulate the system to maintain control of the government. I think it would be much easier for the majority to manipulate it rather than the majority. She seems to be a one dimensional thinker. She gets these ideas but never looks at them from a different perspective. Amazing

 

[glenlogie]

Not remotely like that when it comes to abortion.
Choice means just that, the woman gets to choose, and no one's opinion is forced on others.
Dobbs is the opposite allowing states to force all women to follow their dictates.

The Electoral College DOES violate a democratic principles of one person, one vote, and all votes treated equally.

So you admit that you dispise the constitution

 

[glenlogie]

I like how her implied assumption is that the majority can't manipulate the system to maintain control of the government. I think it would be much easier for the majority manipulate it rather than the majority. She.seems to be a one dimensional thinker. She gets these ideas but never looks at them from a different perspective. Amazing

Extremely one dimensional

 

[Nedsk]

So you admit that you dispise the constitution

Don't you love when they accidentally declare their real intentions? They have no interest whatsoever in considering anything that opposes their agenda. They are jackboot nazis no doubt about it, they just dress better.

 

[Thistle]

If rights can be denied by govt, then those rights are defined by govt.
You might think you have those rights anyway, but in practice, you do not.

But for the fact of those rights there would have been no Revolution, no George Washington, no patriots, no Valley Forge, no United States of America.

 

[glenlogie]

What matters is life independent of attachment to another being.

Jews mark the first breath as the beginning of life

Attachment can also be defined as dependent if one has an unfixed system of Values