Christianity: Friend or foe to science?

[Unknown Soldier]

Ok show me a picture of the belief or thought that God does not exist.

I never said I have one. Electro-chemical processes are invisible as any scientist knows.

The mind would be interacting with the brain not a keyboard.

That makes no difference. The immaterial cannot physically act on the material, and that's where your whole view comes crashing down.

I am still waiting for a picture of a mind or a slice of mind.

You'll get it when you are raised from your grave.

Because I am a normal person, without God you dont even know what normal is.

With God it sure looks like we can know what abnormal is.

That is part of the mystery.

There's no mystery. These NDEs are products of the mind in which logical details like needing eyes to see are accidently omitted.

I am not complaining, just stating a fact.

And I'm stating the fact that since you have only words and no substance, then you cannot convince tough skeptics. All you can do is complain when they don't believe you.

No, not a threat just stating a possible fact.

The only hell is the hell we create for ourselves here on earth.

What kind of reward? Money?

If a God of justice exists, then he would reward me for my efforts to defend truth and defend people from those who would victimize them. Those rewards would include his recognizing my exceptional morality.

Studies have shown that devout Christians are the most civil people.

I want to meet those Christians.

Without persons you cant have babies. You also cannot have personal relationships or personal communication.

LOL--Animals have babies! Did you notice they're not persons?

Yes, but generally they dont have cancers related to sinful behavior.

That makes no difference. Nature is impersonal and unconscious. That's why anybody can get cancer no matter how moral they are.

I dont know who they are.

You wouldn't stop any Christian from doing evil.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

How about killing a man for collecting twigs on Saturday?

Is that good?

It was not good, it is never good for someone to die, but it was a just act under the old covenant when conducted by the proper authorities.

Who decides who the proper authorities are? Many authorities have ordered mass killings, and all of them proclaimed themselves to be "proper."

Under the Old covenant the ancient hebrew theocracy was held to a higher standard as Gods representatives on earth.

To me a higher standard would be to refrain from killing anybody for gathering sticks to feed their hungry family and keep them warm.

God did not want any sabbath breakers living in the nation. The nation had to be pure in action.

But he evidently wanted killers living in the nation. I'd sooner live in a nation of twig gatherers than live with savages who kill men who've done no harm. "Purity in action," to me at least, is to act to preserve human life rather than destroy it.

But under the new covenant Christ brought grace and forgiveness so that sabbath breaking was no longer a capital crime and if you ask for forgiveness you remain part of new representatives of God on earth, the Church.

You forgot to mention the part where Jesus preached that sabbath breakers would burn in hell. That's not an improvement in my book.

But let me end by pointing out that neither of us can prove what's right or wrong on this issue. Morality is a point of view, so there's no way to settle it to everybody's satisfaction.

 

[El Cid]

I should qualify that dishonesty can be morally wrong if it is used to harm innocent people. Logically lying to harm innocent people does harm to society which is unreasonable. See how easy that is? There's no need for any God to dictate morality to us. We can figure it out on our own.

What do you consider harm? What do you consider innocent people?

Why ask questions with obvious answers?

Are they that obvious? Is it harmful to have a twelve year old let a doctor cut off his genitalia because he wants to be a girl?

Like I just posted, we can figure out on our own what harm is and who innocent people are. In fact, we've done just that all along. You're making morality more complicated than it is to slip your God into the mix.

Morality can be complicated. I am trying to get you to think deeper.

Are unborn people innocent?

Yes.

So you believe killing them is wrong?

Why should we care whether something does harm to society?

Obviously I care what harm comes to society because I live in society. It's that simple. I understand you want me to have trouble answering that question so you can slip God in as a way to safeguard society. But theism never worked to safeguard society.

You only care about human society because you have feelings for other humans. An irrational sentimentality for humans. If atheistic evolution is true, then there is nothing special about human societies. Also, some of the humans that pass on the most genes care nothing about the rest of society. And passing on the most genetic material is the goal of evolution. The greatest societies were founded by Christians ie Western Societies.

Human society is only good for humans, there is nothing objectively special about human society if there is no God.

As long as I like society, then that's good enough for me. Belief in God is irrelevant as long as the religious do no harm.

Hitler liked his society and he ignored God and look out their society turned out.

I have tutored underprivileged kids to help them with their schooling. Do you consider that a good?

Yes. And you don't need God to tutor. I never did need God when I tutored.

Why is it good? What is good about tutoring when the universe doesnt care? Just having good feelings?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Are they that obvious? Is it harmful to have a twelve year old let a doctor cut off his genitalia because he wants to be a girl?

Morality can be complicated. I am trying to get you to think deeper.

So you believe killing them is wrong?

You only care about human society because you have feelings for other humans. An irrational sentimentality for humans. If atheistic evolution is true, then there is nothing special about human societies. Also, some of the humans that pass on the most genes care nothing about the rest of society. And passing on the most genetic material is the goal of evolution. The greatest societies were founded by Christians ie Western Societies.

Hitler liked his society and he ignored God and look out their society turned out.

Why is it good? What is good about tutoring when the universe doesnt care? Just having good feelings?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Are they that obvious? Is it harmful to have a twelve year old let a doctor cut off his genitalia because he wants to be a girl?

What's obvious is that you're asking me a load of questions about morality hoping you can trip me up. It's an old tact I've seen many apologists use.

Is it harmful to have a twelve year old let a doctor cut off his genitalia because he wants to be a girl?

I'm not very familiar with transsexual issues, but I am aware that nature often blurs the distinction between male and female. So some people are essentially male or female but with the wrong genitals!

Morality can be complicated.

That's right, and so we often lack easy, clear-cut answers to moral issues.

I am trying to get you to think deeper.

The deeper the better! But I think what you really mean is that you want me to adopt your beliefs.

So you believe killing them is wrong?

Generally, yes, with some exceptions such as when a pregnancy is too dangerous to take to term,

You only care about human society because you have feelings for other humans.

I'd say that most people are good most of the time. I like people and want them to be well off. For an example of my good acts, see Sharing for Jesus as John the Baptist Commanded. Note that my goodness isn't just talk but I act on it too.

An irrational sentimentality for humans.

But we're talking about morality rather than logic.

If atheistic evolution is true, then there is nothing special about human societies.

What do you mean by "special"? Based on your beliefs, human societies are on the chopping block as you gleefully await their destruction.

Also, some of the humans that pass on the most genes care nothing about the rest of society. And passing on the most genetic material is the goal of evolution.

Evolution has no goals. It's just how life changes to survive.

The greatest societies were founded by Christians ie Western Societies.

With minor exceptions such as Sumer, Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, China, Mesoamerica, and--oh yes--Israel.

Hitler liked his society and he ignored God and look out their society turned out.

Hitler actually made use of theism to further his goals. He realized what a powerful propaganda tool God is and that people will believe the most outlandish things when one speaks of God. Here's what he wrote in Mein Kampf:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].

So Hitler's final solution is based in the New Testament.

Why is it good? What is good about tutoring when the universe doesnt care? Just having good feelings?

I suppose so. What's wrong with having good feelings? I'm fully capable of understanding right and wrong on my own. Aren't you?

 

[El Cid]

Yes, all Christians disobey God sometimes.

I'd say they disobey the Bible all the time.

Not all the time but fairly often each day.

Actually once you become a mature Christian you dont really care as much about the afterlife, rather you love your relationship with God in this life and heaven is just the icing on the cake.

I've often wondered if anybody would adopt a religion without being offered rewards for doing so. Jesus offered rewards to entice potential followers. I don't know off the top of my head if a relationship with God was on his list of offerings. Personally, such an offer doesn't appeal to me especially if it's anything like the supposed relationship with God Christians say they have. Being angry and hating people is not high on my list of priorities.

Jesus said that if you love Him you love the father. God doesnt hate people but rather hates their sin.

Yes, sometimes because He convicts you of your sin and you feel guilty about it until you repent.

I'm actually pretty good at knowing when I've gone morally wrong which is very rare.

You still have not told me what your standard is to determine what is morally wrong. So how can you know? Though you have admitted that you primarily determine it by feelings right? But what if those feelings are just the flu or indigestion?

So what sin does God convict you of?

Different days, different sins.

What are the sins committed by Christians in general? It appears that sexual abuse and money scams are very popular sins among Christians.

Christians generally commit the same sins as non Christians but at lower rates, this has been proven by studies. I think you are confusing the actions of TV evangelists with ordinary devout Christians. Most devout Christians dont do either of those things. And the main reason TV evangelists do those things is because most of them dont have fellow elders to hold them accountable and they get drunk with power because people put them on a pedestal.

Also, repentance does follow conviction--conviction by a court of law. God's conviction should come first and early enough to avoid that kind of a mess, but we all know it often fails to work that way.

I dont think often but it does happen too much at least in America where Christians have been seduced by the culture.

Christ didnt say they were crimes, just sins.

I always thought they are essentially the same.

No, for example, lust is a sin but it is not a crime.

While there is overlap between sins and crimes, they are not the same thing.

So are there some crimes that aren't sins? If so, then I presume you think you can commit those crimes without sinning.

Yes, in Europe and Canada ministers have been arrested for preaching that homosexuality is immoral. Obviously by doing so they were committing a crime according to the law but they were not sinning.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Not all the time but fairly often each day.

It looks like everyday the Christians on this board commit the sin of pride. Hating one's enemies and reviling them are also very popular.

Jesus said that if you love Him you love the father. God doesnt hate people but rather hates their sin.

I'm not sure what this comment has to do with the transgressions that apparently result from Christians' relationship with God. It's illogical to believe that immoral, foolish people have a relationship with a holy, perfectly wise God.

You still have not told me what your standard is to determine what is morally wrong.

I've told you more than once that I have no moral standards. My morality results from using logic and facts.

So how can you know?

None of us know for sure what is the right thing to do. We need to use our judgment.

Though you have admitted that you primarily determine it by feelings right?

Not completely, but doing what "feels" right is a common way to make moral judgments. Doing so generally works well. If it doesn't, then you try something else.

But what if those feelings are just the flu or indigestion?

What if a supposed revelation from God is merely a case of gas?

Different days, different sins.

Christians always crow about the wonders of God's forgiveness, then they proceed to hide what they need to be forgiven for. That seems contradictory to me.

Christians generally commit the same sins as non Christians but at lower rates, this has been proven by studies.

I'm beginning to hate studies.

I think you are confusing the actions of TV evangelists with ordinary devout Christians.

But TV evangelists are either Christians or at least use Christianity. I generally agree with the way they interpret the Bible. The reason evangelists offer false hope is because that offer is in the Bible.

Most devout Christians dont do either of those things. And the main reason TV evangelists do those things is because most of them dont have fellow elders to hold them accountable and they get drunk with power because people put them on a pedestal.

That's all part of religion!

I dont think often but it does happen too much at least in America where Christians have been seduced by the culture.

Isn't it interesting how Christianity flourishes in that seducing culture?

No, for example, lust is a sin but it is not a crime.

Lust is a perfectly normal aspect of nature. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Heck, there's plenty of lust in the Bible in particular in the Song of Solomon. So if lust is a sin, then the Bible is sinful.

Yes, in Europe and Canada ministers have been arrested for preaching that homosexuality is immoral. Obviously by doing so they were committing a crime according to the law but they were not sinning.

Those homophobic preachers may have been inciting violence against gays. It wasn't that long ago that the police were arresting gays. I don't know of any Christians who decried those gross injustices.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

It looks like everyday the Christians on this board commit the sin of pride. Hating one's enemies and reviling them are also very popular.

I'm not sure what this comment has to do with the transgressions that apparently result from Christians' relationship with God. It's illogical to believe that immoral, foolish people have a relationship with a holy, perfectly wise God.

I've told you more than once that I have no moral standards. My morality results from using logic and facts.

None of us know for sure what is the right thing to do. We need to use our judgment.

Not completely, but doing what "feels" right is a common way to make moral judgments. Doing so generally works well. If it doesn't, then you try something else.

What if a supposed revelation from God is merely a case of gas?

Christians always crow about the wonders of God's forgiveness, then they proceed to hide what they need to be forgiven for. That seems contradictory to me.

I'm beginning to hate studies.

But TV evangelists are either Christians or at least use Christianity. I generally agree with the way they interpret the Bible. The reason evangelists offer false hope is because that offer is in the Bible.

That's all part of religion!

Isn't it interesting how Christianity flourishes in that seducing culture?

Lust is a perfectly normal aspect of nature. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Heck, there's plenty of lust in the Bible in particular in the Song of Solomon. So if lust is a sin, then the Bible is sinful.

Those homophobic preachers may have been inciting violence against gays. It wasn't that long ago that the police were arresting gays. I don't know of any Christians who decried those gross injustices.

Now this is good stuff! You accusing anyone of pride! Of all people LOL, that’s like a serial killer accusing a boxer or MMA fighter of being violent.

‘TV evangelists are Christians’ bwaaaaaahahahjaja!! Hilarious! Gotta love how antichrists use the most obvious frauds and use them to demonize a faith they really have no idea about, due to their spiritual blindness, which is in fact a judgment upon them from God Himself.

Gotta love how antichrists use the Song of Solomon to justify lust, when the truth is that Book is 1. Symbolic. 2. Describes a situation between a married couple. What is truly hilarious is how these antichrists often portray themselves as biblical scholars but are completely scripturally illiterate. Have no idea what they’re talking about in regards to scripture while portraying themselves as knowledgeable, yet have the audacity to accuse others of pride..you can’t make this up!

Used to feel sorry for these types but not anymore. James 4:6 describes this type perfectly.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Now this is good stuff! You accusing anyone of pride! Of all people LOL, that’s like a serial killer accusing a boxer or MMA fighter of being violent.

‘TV evangelists are Christians’ bwaaaaaahahahjaja!! Hilarious! Gotta love how antichrists use the most obvious frauds and use them to demonize a faith they really have no idea about, due to their spiritual blindness, which is in fact a judgment upon them from God Himself.

Gotta love how antichrists use the Song of Solomon to justify lust, when the truth is that Book is 1. Symbolic. 2. Describes a situation between a married couple. What is truly hilarious is how these antichrists often portray themselves as biblical scholars but are completely scripturally illiterate. Have no idea what they’re talking about in regards to scripture while portraying themselves as knowledgeable, yet have the audacity to accuse others of pride..you can’t make this up!

Used to feel sorry for these types but not anymore. James 4:6 describes this type perfectly.

Yikes. Read your own post again.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

Yikes. Read your own post again.

Do you even know what pride means? It isn’t my obligation to coddle the feelings of people who dedicate their efforts into mocking the faith. Their garbage needs to be called out so maybe they will be less reluctant to spread their poison. Christians are supposed to contend for the faith. Not coddle those who despise it.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Do you even know what pride means? It isn’t my obligation to coddle the feelings of people who dedicate their efforts into mocking the faith. Their garbage needs to be called out so maybe they will be less reluctant to spread their poison. Christians are supposed to contend for the faith. Not coddle those who despise it.

I'm sure you can convince yourself of anything you want.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

I'm sure you can convince yourself of anything you want.

And I am sure you have no idea that yellow circle around the head of that idol in your avatar is pagan solar deity symbolism. Or do you?

 

[Our Lord's God]

And I am sure you have no idea that yellow circle around the head of that idol in your avatar is pagan solar deity symbolism. Or do you?

I see. You are Mr. Fairy Tale Myth Man.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

I see. You are Mr. Fairy Tale Myth Man.

Thank you for that. So by the measure you accuse me of pride, you’re now guilty of the same. Which makes you a hypocrite.

In the end, we will really see who really has the issue with pride.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Thank you for that. So by the measure you accuse me of pride, you’re now guilty of the same. Which makes you a hypocrite.

In the end, we will really see who really has the issue with pride.

What WE see is irrelevant. Neither is the Judge.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

What WE see is irrelevant. Neither is the Judge.

Everything is revealed in due time..Luke 12:1-2.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I see. You are Mr. Fairy Tale Myth Man.

We should take it easy on him. He's probably had a tough life.

 

[Our Lord's God]

We should take it easy on him. He's probably had a tough life.

Yeah maybe

 

[El Cid]

Obviously yes, if you sincerely seek truth, then you might find it although success is never guaranteed. Truth can be anything that you may or may not like, and it isn't always what you expect or what makes sense to you. Truth is often discovered as a result of much time and effort. I say let reality dictate to you what it is and not you dictate to reality what you want it to be. You need to look with "open eyes" and a clean slate for truth seeing whatever it presents to you.

Hey we agree on something.

You may be very unique as a Christian, then. As far as I know the Bible doesn't advise this kind of critical thinking. Where does the Bible tell us to freely come to conclusions based on logic and reasoning? Instead it demands that we either believe what it says or perish in hell.

Paul says to test everything and Jesus says to count the cost before becoming a Christian. These teachings plainly imply you should not become a Christian by taking an irrational leap of faith. Jesus was constantly providing evidence for who He was, the people were free to choose not to believe Him.

Some people dont want to hear the truth and cant handle it because of their preconceived ideas.

And I submit that such people don't rely on logic and evidence like I do. Some people believe what they do because they hope they will be rewarded for their belief.

Yes, but most Christians become Christians because of what they believe is evidence though you may not consider it evidence.

Why would they have no need for swords? Jesus was not a pacifist.

OK. So we agree that Jesus encouraged violence in his followers as long as being violent stood a chance of winning.

No, He didnt encourage violence, He said those that live by violence will die by violence. He only allowed violence in self defense or the defense of others.

So getting back to my earlier point that you jumped over, a true Son of God would be invulnerable and have no need for armed followers.

Most of his followers were not armed. He chose to make Himself vulnerable to save us.

This is but one of many logical conflicts we see in the Bible that most Christians are blind to. We can easily reconcile these paradoxes by dispensing our beliefs of God and magic. Then it all makes sense: We are told that Jesus had armed followers because the story of those followers along with Jesus himself are the products of the imperfect human imagination. The Gospel writers simply failed to see the theological inconsistencies in their stories.

He was not here to engage in a supernatural battle with Rome. As I have explained earlier, only on rare occaisons does God intervene supernaturally. This can be seen in that the Bible covers 13.8 billion years and records relatively few miracles during that time period.

You might could if you fought them with a weapon.

It would obviously be foolish to fight the police especially with a weapon. If you don't like the legal system, then there are legal ways to have the laws changed. In the real world, there are no magic men to heal the wounds we inflict on those with authority to arrest us.

Not in ancient Rome. It was often unjust.

No, but because He cannot interfere with their free will...

Based on what I've read in the Gospel stories, Jesus had no concept of free will. He routinely issued commands to his followers to obey God's presumed will rather then their own wills.

No, He gave them a choice to obey or not obey. He said he loves me will keep my commandments, but he nor his disciples never tried to convert anyone by force only verbal persuasion.

...it may not happen immediately. Most of the time it takes time for us to change.

What you've posted here is another example of a logical inconsistency between your own theology and the theology of a perfect God. Your God is limited and hence slow. Gods that people make are like your God.

No, He is merciful and long suffering and gives His people time to get themselves on the right track.

 

[Gary Mac]

Hummm, My Momma, said there would be days like this, days like this, my Momma said. LOL