Circular Reasoning

[Arch Stanton]

Sure, John as pope was telling Peter through Jesus to do a job.

If we rewrite Mt 16 with John and the keys, sure -- add in Christ telling John to feed His sheep, add to that Christ's prayer for John to strengthen his brothers, etc.

You may be on to something ? ? --all along I thought Jacob and Wilhelm cornered the market

 

[Nondenom40]

If we rewrite Mt 16 with John and the keys, sure -- add in Christ telling John to feed His sheep, add to that Christ's prayer for John to strengthen his brothers, etc.

You may be on to something ? ? --all along I thought Jacob and Wilhelm cornered the market

Remember i'm demonstrating catholic hermenutics not mine. And you disagree with it. Think about that.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Remember i'm demonstrating catholic hermenutics not mine. And you disagree with it. Think about that.

I agree that if we substitute 'John' for 'Peter' throughout the NT, your vision of Pope John I would be realized.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Remember i'm demonstrating catholic hermenutics not mine. And you disagree with it. Think about that.

If only Christ hadn't given the keys to Peter.... ? -- it would frustrate me if I was a protestant

 

[Nondenom40]

If only Christ hadn't given the keys to Peter.... ? -- it would frustrate me if I was a protestant

It doesn't frustrate me at all. I understand the context. Catholics have a dogma to protect i don't.

 

[Arch Stanton]

It doesn't frustrate me at all.

It will someday

Catholics have a dogma to protect i don't.

That protection is from the HS to His Church.

By the way, I was answering your other post regarding James [Jerusalem - Acts 15] when it was closed.... I think it makes more sense with a comma in the middle and the word 'actually'

"Pretty simple -- the one you and others tout in Acts 15, is [actually] a simple bystander"

 

[Arch Stanton]

A little odd that the earliest church fathers didn't understand the passage this way dontcha think?

Then Clement must have figured it all out with Mt 17:27 ?

Clement of Alexandria​

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

 

[Arch Stanton]

A little odd that the earliest church fathers didn't understand the passage this way dontcha think?

Cyril of Jerusalem​

In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Our Lord's God]

Then Clement must have figured it all out with Mt 17:27 ?

Clement of Alexandria​

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

And that amounts to the RCC interpretation of Matthew 16:16-19?

Bizarre.

 

[Arch Stanton]

And that amounts to the RCC interpretation of Matthew 16:16-19?

Bizarre.

Quite bizarre--

Ambrose of Milan​

[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

 

[Arch Stanton]

And that amounts to the RCC interpretation of Matthew 16:16-19?

Bizarre.

?

Augustine​

Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

 

[Nondenom40]

?

Augustine​

Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

Funny these quotes can't be replicated in the n.t. You have to dig around for people over 400 years later to 'prove' what you believe. Not convincing in the least.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Funny these quotes can't be replicated in the n.t.

yeah, we only have things like feed my sheep, keys to the kingdom, etc.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Quite bizarre--

Ambrose of Milan​

[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Is that the best you could do? 300 years after the apostolic age? That's pitiful dontcha think?

 

[balshan]

where is that in the bible

Really you are showing a lack of knowledge of scripture. No surprise.

 

[Johan]

Question: IF Peter was the only one mentioned with the keys in Mt 16 and Mt 18 did not say 'bind/loose', would Peter's authority be acceptable to you? [just curious if more proof would be necessary]

I do not believe that the keys refer to authority at all. Keys are meant to be used to lock or unlock something. Peter was given the keys to Heaven, which consequently means that he received the knowledge of how to (figuratively speaking) unlock the gates of Heaven and enter. But unlike the scribes and the Pharisees who hid their key (Luke 11:52), he was commissioned to disseminate this knowledge. To put it briefly: he was entrusted with the Gospel.

 

[balshan]

peace be with you.

No problems you keep posting the false claims and I will respond with the reality checks.

 

[balshan]

John writes what Christ said -- shepherd my sheep [Pierre]

Well RC pope's have failed the sheep over and over and over again. They have feed false doctrines to the sheep, they have harmed and allowed the sheep to be harmed. Pierre's successors are a major fail.

 

[Johan]

John writes what Christ said -- shepherd my sheep [Pierre]

Granted, but Christ did not say "shepherd my (other) shepherds".

 

[Our Lord's God]

I do not believe that the keys refer to authority at all.

Given what Jesus had already just said to Peter, it is absurd to suggest that Jesus would be founding the church upon flesh and blood named Peter.

Jesus is not referring to authority over others. He is not making Peter a Lord over the church which is what the Pope effectively is. In fact, Jesus taught his disciples the opposite, to not be a Lord over others.

Jesus is the Lord and here Jesus is referring to the authority to do things in his name. His disciples act on his behalf to bring people into the Kingdom.

Keys are meant to be used to open or close something. Peter was given the keys to Heaven, which consequently means that he received the knowledge of how to (figuratively speaking) open the gates of Heaven and enter. But unlike the scribes and the Pharisees who hid their key (Luke 11:52), he was commissioned to disseminate this knowledge. To put it briefly: he was entrusted with the Gospel.

Hades, and the gates of Hades, is a reference to death. The keys refer to access to the reality of the Kingdom where life is found. This life is in the church and the gates of Hades has no power to do anything about it.