Circular Reasoning

[ramcam2]

Have you done enough good works after your baptism to merit eternal life from God if you died this very hour?


When did you receive the revelation from God that you did enough good works to merit eternal life from Him?

You must think you are a very good person to having earned Heaven!

yes, we have an assurance but not an absolute one for God is the final judge and to us salvation is a process. it is not once saved, always saved.

It still says you have to earn Heaven with your works.


Please remember that the next time you or any of your Catholic pals deny Catholicism teaches that sinners can earn Heaven by doing good works.

please do not post words i did not say. it is only after being saved by grace through faith (eph2: 8-9) that works will avail us a reward.

eph2: 10 No, we are his design; God has created us in Christ Jesus, pledged to such good actions as he has prepared beforehand, to be the employment of our lives.

 

[Our Lord's God]

yes, we have an assurance but not an absolute one for God is the final judge and to us salvation is a process. it is not once saved, always saved.

What or Who assures you?

 

[ramcam2]

I already said I made a typo with precede, proceeds. So stop going on about it. But you are wrong.

Ephesians is clear grace through faith. faith is the heart you must have it for grace to flow through. It is simple first grace. You do not understand the word through.

eph 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

If grace was first it would be faith through grace. It does not matter what you post on this, you are wrong because you do not comprehend the word through.

before faith comes forth, results, have an effect... one must have first the grace of God.
the same with works, before it avails us of a reward... one must have first the grace of God

everything starts with the grace of God (Phil 2:13).
actual grace is a divine push and we have to respond to it with our freewill. one cannot have faith or do good works without God's grace urging/pushing us to go ahead. everything in our life (breathing, eating, our work, our family, etc) is because of the grace of God.

 

[balshan]

before faith comes forth, results, have an effect... one must have first the grace of God.
the same with works, before it avails us of a reward... one must have first the grace of God

everything starts with the grace of God (Phil 2:13).
actual grace is a divine push and we have to respond to it with our freewill. one cannot have faith or do good works without God's grace urging/pushing us to go ahead. everything in our life (breathing, eating, our work, our family, etc) is because of the grace of God.

Look you don't understand the word through and that is obvious.

Actual Phil 2:13 does not support your case. We have faith because of God. Every good thing comes from God. I have never said it is not God who works. It is RCs who like to claim God's glory for themselves or their institution.

or it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[ramcam2]

What or Who assures you?
There is only one true God: Jesus Christ's God. What does this Scriptural fact tell you?

The bible says that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and theHoly Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

of course, this is not the thread to discuss this!

 

[balshan]

The bible says that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and theHoly Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

of course, this is not the thread to discuss this!

Where does the bible say that?

 

[ramcam2]

Look you don't understand the word through and that is obvious.

it is from your definition...
proceeds- comes forth or results, effect

Actual Phil 2:13 does not support your case. We have faith because of God. Every good thing comes from God. I have never said it is not God who works. It is RCs who like to claim God's glory for themselves or their institution.

or it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

How does God do it? by giving us (actual) grace.
You cannot avoid it. we can do all these things in our life without the (actual)graces that God offers us.

 

[Our Lord's God]

before faith comes forth, results, have an effect... one must have first the grace of God.

This comes by hearing the Gospel. And it is a call to be involved with His program.

The grace of God is stated in John 3:16.

the same with works, before it avails us of a reward... one must have first the grace of God

True believers do not ever want to bother with their own works - ever. They are done with that.
They only seek to do the works of God which He prepares for them to do.

They no longer decide their steps; God does.
They no longer decide like a Pharisee what they will do for God. God decides what He wants to do with them.

everything starts with the grace of God (Phil 2:13).

Yes it does. He sent His son, we only respond one way or another.

actual grace is a divine push

Not a "push" but a call.

and we have to respond to it with our freewill. one cannot have faith or do good works without God's grace urging/pushing us to go ahead.

The Shepherd calls his sheep by name.

And they hear his voice.

And they follow him.

everything in our life (breathing, eating, our work, our family, etc) is because of the grace of God.

See Luke 14:26-33.

 

[ramcam2]

there is no grace of God in the water baptism of an unbeliever.

jesus showed us what will happen in the sacrament of baptism when he was baptized in the jordan. the heavens opened and the holy spirit came down. the same thing in the sacrament, heaven will opthe holy spirit is conferred on the baptized. Do you think the holy spirit will come to you without (sanctifying) grace in your heart?

no one is born again in water baptism. if you're counting on that to 'save' you, then you will remain lost, not knowing Christ. the rebirth is a different experience when God changes one's heart, a non wet experience and no other human needs to be involved.

if so, explain these verses... Acts2: 38; 5: 16; etc...

then why do catholics believe they need 'works' for it? the unsaved have no works of / in / or by Him.

the reason is in eph2: 10.

 

[ramcam2]

This comes by hearing the Gospel. And it is a call to be involved with His program.

The grace is God is stated in John 3:16.



True believers do not ever want to bother with their own works - ever. They are done with that.
They only seek to do the works of God which He prepares for them to do.

They no longer decide their steps; God does.
They no longer decide like a Pharisee what they will do for God. God decides what He wants to do with them.



Yes it does. He sent His son, we only respond one way or another.



Not a "push" but a call.



The Shepherd calls his sheep by name.

And they hear his voice.

And they follow him.



See Luke 14:26-33.

good, we both agree that the grace of God comes first before faith and works.

 

[Our Lord's God]

jesus showed us what will happen in the sacrament of baptism when he was baptized in the jordan. the heavens opened and the holy spirit came down. the same thing in the sacrament, heaven will opthe holy spirit is conferred on the baptized.

The Holy Spirit is conferred upon those who deny themselves and die together with Christ. This is how men are raised up to new life, born of God just as Jesus died and was then raised to life. You can refer to Romans 6:3-5 if you like.

Do you think the holy spirit will come to you without (sanctifying) grace in your heart?

The HOLY Spirit is what sanctifies us.

Here's your hint:
Holy - hagios
Sanctify - hagiazō

if so, explain these verses... Acts2: 38; 5: 16; etc...

the reason is in eph2: 10.

 

[Our Lord's God]

good, we both agree that the grace of God comes first before faith and works.

No I don't agree with your premises.

But you can go ahead and pretend if you like.

 

[mica]

yes, we have an assurance but not an absolute one for God is the final judge and to us salvation is a process. it is not once saved, always saved.

please do not post words i did not say. it is only after being saved by grace through faith (eph2: 8-9) that works will avail us a reward.

eph2: 10 No, we are his design; God has created us in Christ Jesus, pledged to such good actions as he has prepared beforehand, to be the employment of our lives.

how is a catholic saved by grace?

thru what faith?

 

[balshan]

it is from your definition...
proceeds- comes forth or results, effect

How does God do it? by giving us (actual) grace.
You cannot avoid it. we can do all these things in our life without the (actual)graces that God offers us.

Do what without God?

I said proceeds was a typo because I was waiting for an extremely important phone call. You are not understanding through. First faith and then the grace through the faith. It is clear as the nose on your face.

 

[balshan]

Do what without God?

I said proceeds was a typo because I was waiting for an extremely important phone call. You are not understanding through. First faith and then the grace through the faith. It is clear as the nose on your face.

it is from your definition...
proceeds- comes forth or results, effect

How does God do it? by giving us (actual) grace.
You cannot avoid it. we can do all these things in our life without the (actual)graces that God offers us.

Why are you focusing on a word I didn't mean to use. I have clearly stated it was a typo and yet you proceed post after post to bring it up. It does make you reveal your lack of comprehension in reading posts.

You need to understand the word THROUGH.

 

[mica]

mica said:
there is no grace of God in the water baptism of an unbeliever.

jesus showed us what will happen in the sacrament of baptism when he was baptized in the jordan. the heavens opened and the holy spirit came down. the same thing in the sacrament, heaven will opthe holy spirit is conferred on the baptized.

so you think Jesus needed water baptized to wash away His sin? so that He'd receive the HS?

Do you think the holy spirit will come to you without (sanctifying) grace in your heart?

He is with those who are saved, even before they are water baptized. He was with me many months before I was water baptized.

if so, explain these verses... Acts2: 38; 5: 16; etc...

the reason is in eph2: 10.

where'd you come up with those verses - from the ccc?

 

[balshan]

so you think Jesus needed water baptized to wash away His sin? so that He'd receive the HS?


He is with those who are saved, even before they are water baptized. He was with me many months before I was water baptized.


where'd you come up with those verses - from the ccc?

Obviously they didn't read John's words in Mtt 3

3 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for it is proper for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw God’s Spirit descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from the heavens said, “This is my Son, the Beloved,[a] with whom I am well pleased.”

 

[ramcam2]

so you think Jesus needed water baptized to wash away His sin? so that He'd receive the HS?

there is no need for him to be baptized for he has no sins to be washed away.

He is with those who are saved, even before they are water baptized. He was with me many months before I was water baptized.

true, it is possible to be saved trough baptism of desire and baptism of blood

.
where'd you come up with those verses - from the ccc?

haven't heard of the book called the bible?

 

[Bonnie]

it is the grace of god that saves in the sacrament of baptism. it is in baptism that we are born again and received a new life (John 3:5, Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5).

yes, it is the free gift of god's grace that gives us faith in jesus christ.

We can also be born again simply when we come to faith in Jesus Christ, even before baptism, as Cornelius and his family and friends did, in Acts 10.
And from Romans 10:

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

 

[ramcam2]

Why are you focusing on a word I didn't mean to use. I have clearly stated it was a typo and yet you proceed post after post to bring it up. It does make you reveal your lack of comprehension in reading posts.

You need to understand the word THROUGH.it

sorry for that.
ok, here is my understanding of the word 'through' as used in ephesians 2.
it says we are saved through faith but it is not faith in and of itself that saved us.
it is the gratuitous gift of God's grace that saves us.
this is the reason that we believe that in baptism, one is saved by the grace of God through the faith of the parents in infants or through the faith of the individual for adults.

are we now in agreement on my understanding of the word 'through' as used by Paul?