Codex Sinaiticus - the facts

There are homoeoteleuton errors in Rev 4:3/4:4. and Rev 4:5/4:6. May be Revelation wasn't checked to the same extent as the rest of the NT. May be it was this feature of partial error correction that led either Skeat or Amy Myshrall (can't remember who exactly) to conclude that the Codex Sinaiticus had been abandoned in the scriptorium for 200 years or so. May be Sinaiticus's Book of Revelation wasn't seen to be worth correcting, as not a good copy (as I recall it has a somewhat different provenance to other NT books).

In Romans the large omissions are at:

Romans 8:1 - Ca
Romans 9:28 - Ca
Romans 10:15 - Ca
Romans 11:6 - Ca
Romans 11:30 - S1 followed by Ca
Romans 15:24 - Ca

Correction at 16:19 - Ca

You are helping to show how the Sinaiticus corrector theories are not at all sensible.

The quote about being abandoned at the Scriptorium would be good to find.

Your theory is crumbling.
 
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Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Constantine (2004)
Theodore Cressy Skeat
https://books.google.com/books?id=td_OLXo4RvkC&pg=PA220


We now come to the crucial question: are Vaticanus or Sinaiticus, or both (since they were undoubtedly written at Caesarea in the middle of the fourth century) to be connected with the order of Constantine? Whenever this suggestion is made, it is immediately countered by the fact that Sinaiticus at least was certainly still in Caesarea two centuries later. This is true, but overlooks one crucial fact: Sinaiticus was never completed, and therefore could not in any case have been sent to Constantinople. Proof that it was not completed, and possible reasons for this, will be considered in the next section.

IV. The Abandonment of Sinaiticus and the Reduction in Format

The crucial fact in the history of Sinaiticus is that, when virtually complete, work on it was suddenly abandoned. The uncompleted manuscript could not therefore be bound up, and must have remained, a pile of loose leaves, in the scriptorium at Caesarea.

Of the fact itself there is no possible doubt. As was pointed out in Scribes and Correctors (pp. 7-9), the original quire numeration allows for a whole quire between the Old Testament and the New. The Old Testament concludes with Job, ending with the last leaf of quire 72. In the earlier part of the New Testament the original quire numbers have in many cases been shorn off in the course of binding, but from quire 83 onwards they are mostly intact, though often partly erased by the writer of the later, continuous numeration. Enough remains, however, to make it quite certain that the first quire of the New Testament was numbered οδ (=74), and indeed, as we noted, traces of this can still be seen on the top edge of the first leaf of the quire in exactly the position where it would have been expected. The quires on either side of this point are in perfect condition, and it is thus impossible that quire 73 could have simply dropped out of the manuscript.

Continues here with canon Eusebian table theory.
And notes on p. 289 and p. 293.
 
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In Romans the large omissions are at:

Romans 8:1 - Ca
Romans 9:28 - Ca
Romans 10:15 - Ca
Romans 11:6 - Ca
Romans 11:30 - S1 followed by Ca
Romans 15:24 - Ca

Correction at 16:19 - Ca

You are helping to show how the Sinaiticus corrector theories are not at all sensible.

The quote about being abandoned at the Scriptorium would be good to find.

Your theory is crumbling.
My theory is not crumbling. None of the Ca revisions you cited are seen to be due to homoeoteleuton errors. In fact the Critical Text rejects every such Ca revision in favor of the original Sinaiticus production text.
 
So you have a theory about homoeoteleuton corrections being in Scriptorium time that does not apply to:

“LXX”
Revelation
Hermas and Barnabas ?
long omissions that do not appear to be hits.

Where have you seen that your theory does apply, specific corrections, outside the 5 or so that relate well to Claromontanus?

Thanks!,
 
So you have a theory about homoeoteleuton corrections being in Scriptorium time that does not apply to:

“LXX”
Revelation
Hermas and Barnabas ?
long omissions that do not appear to be hits.

Where have you seen that your theory does apply, specific corrections, outside the 5 or so that relate well to Claromontanus?

Thanks!,
Are you fishing for information? I've spent enough time on this already and debunked your theory that Ca has any useful corrections to make on Sinaiticus NT, and that the Sinaiticus NT production copy isn't an accurate copy of the NT manuscripts from which it was copied. It is interesting that the CT appears to rejects Ca's (presumably Byzantine/Majority text) NT corrections, apart from the homoeoteleuton errors in Revelation.

BTW, why do you suppose Simonides et al. would have spent all that time to produce a 4th century NT text, only to belatedly introduce a Corrector Ca to turn it back into a Byzantine/Majority text? Makes no sense at all.
 
and debunked your theory that Ca has any useful corrections to make on Sinaiticus NT,

Wow, that’s exciting.

Where is my Ca-NT theory?
(Beyond simply showing large Romans and Revelation corrections by Ca.)

And where is your debiunking of my non-theory?

And I think you are tripping over the subjective word "useful".

Thanks!
 
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BTW, why do you suppose Simonides et al. would have spent all that time to produce a 4th century NT text, only to belatedly introduce a Corrector Ca to turn it back into a Byzantine/Majority text? Makes no sense at all.

The Ca corrector was likely post-Athos, in the manuscript travels from Constantinople to Antigonus to Sinai.

David Daniels goes into this quite a bit.
 
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the Sinaiticus NT production copy isn't an accurate copy of the NT manuscripts from which it was copied.

And I am not sure what that means, we know they were bumbling scribes that made many hundreds of singular bad errors, often omission, sometimes addition, and also transposition.

Dirk Jongkind goes into the details a bit, without really emphasizing homoeteleutons, which are helpful for describing source manuscripts. Ironically, the mythicist Peter Cresswell gives more specific information on the ht errors.
 
Are you fishing for information? I've spent enough time on this already and debunked your theory that Ca has any useful corrections to make on Sinaiticus NT

You actually do not seem to have done much of anything.

ca, supposedly long after the scriptorium, was often the big honcho corrector.
And hardly any are from supposed original scribes.
And D is nowhere to be found.

Here are the large omissions in John.

John 3:20 - ca
John 3:21 - ca
John 4:45 - ca
John 5:26 - ca
John 6:11 - cb2
John 6:24 (2) - ca
John 6:55 - ca
John 7:50 - ca
John 8:59 - ca and cb2
John 9:38 - ca
John 11:17 - cb2 (just two words, but on top)
John 12:31 - ca
John 15:10 - ca
John 16:15 - ca
John 16:17 - ca
John 19:15 - ca
John 19:20 - A ... long
John 19:23 - ca
John 20:4 - ca
John 20:6 - ca long
John 20:16 - ca and cb2
John 21:6 - ca and cb2 - long
John 21:25 - S1 and * (controversial long omission)
 
You actually do not seem to have done much of anything.

ca, supposedly long after the scriptorium, was often the big honcho corrector.
And hardly any are from supposed original scribes.
And D is nowhere to be found.

Here are the large omissions in John.

John 3:20 - ca
John 3:21 - ca
John 4:45 - ca
John 5:26 - ca
John 6:11 - cb2
John 6:24 (2) - ca
John 6:55 - ca
John 7:50 - ca
John 8:59 - ca and cb2
John 9:38 - ca
John 11:17 - cb2 (just two words, but on top)
John 12:31 - ca
John 15:10 - ca
John 16:15 - ca
John 16:17 - ca
John 19:15 - ca
John 19:20 - A ... long
John 19:23 - ca
John 20:4 - ca
John 20:6 - ca long
John 20:16 - ca and cb2
John 21:6 - ca and cb2 - long
John 21:25 - S1 and * (controversial long omission)
................suggesting that Sinaiticus's John's gospel was never finished by the production team, as with Revelation.

BTW, the omission of Jn 16:15 from Sinaiticus is interesting, as it's also missing in its entirety from P66.

And I am not sure what that means, we know they were bumbling scribes that made many hundreds of singular bad errors, often omission, sometimes addition, and also transposition.
I didn't word my sentiment correctly. What I meant was, that where the Sinaiticus production team endeavored to finish a NT book, the result was OK. So in Romans we only get Byzantine text revisions by corrector Ca. Ca is known for being a fan of the Byzantine text type.

The Ca corrector was likely post-Athos, in the manuscript travels from Constantinople to Antigonus to Sinai.

David Daniels goes into this quite a bit.
Malik, Skeat, Marshall, etc. are fairly unanimous Ca is 6th century AD.

And where is your debiunking of my non-theory?
As Lake said in his introduction to the Sinaiticus NT, Simonides strictly pertains to the subject of crime, not Sinaiticus. That is my conclusion too.
 
As Lake said in his introduction to the Sinaiticus NT, Simonides strictly pertains to the subject of crime, not Sinaiticus.

Lake added his motive:

"Simonides ... attempted to discredit the experts who had helped to detect his fraud"

Maybe Tischendorf is supposed to be "experts"?

And is that why he made his very similar Shepherd of Hermas before the Sinaiticus discovery?
To anticipate the "experts" who would go twisting back and forth in accusation?

And is that why he arranged the supporting Athos library documentation - showing him and Kallinikos in the right place at the right time, that got published in 1900?

Is that why he arranged the Russian 1859 pages to be coloured and stained, matching his accusation precisely, while the 1844 was a simple consistent pale white parchment.

Is that why he was able to expose the Tischendorf 1844 brazen theft?

And on and on and on.
 
Lake added his motive:

"Simonides ... attempted to discredit the experts who had helped to detect his fraud"

Maybe Tischendorf is supposed to be "experts"?

And is that why he made his very similar Shepherd of Hermas before the Sinaiticus discovery?
To anticipate the "experts" who would go twisting back and forth in accusation?

And is that why he arranged the supporting Athos library documentation - showing him and Kallinikos in the right place at the right time, that got published in 1900?

Is that why he arranged the Russian 1859 pages to be coloured and stained, matching his accusation precisely, while the 1844 was a simple consistent pale white parchment.

Is that why he was able to expose the Tischendorf 1844 brazen theft?

And on and on and on.
?????? You're in a world of your own here.
 
Do you have any reason to think that Matthew, Mark, Luke or Acts are any different?
I haven't looked at them although they do seem to offer fewer homoeoteleuton errors than John. I suggest an appraisal of which corrector corrected the homoeoteleuton or other obvious errors in any book would determine the finished/unfinished state of any book by the original Sinaiticus production team. But in the case of some apparent homoeoteleuton errors, e.g. at Mark 1:33-34, all concerning the word "kai," it's likely not possible to know whether there is a true homoeoteleuton error. For as with the omission of Jn 16:15, some omissions would be due to omissions (or otherwise) in the source copy. Jn 16:15 tells us that variations in the texts of the gospels existed long before Sinaiticus was produced: which we know anyway, as Eusebius tells us this is the case viz. the ending of Mark. We also know the text of the gospels was redacted to make them seem more harmonious.
 
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The information that would be helpful, especially for the New Testament, but even for one book, or one section, like the Pauline Epistles.

How many large sections have corrections, and which original scribe and which corrector(s) are involved?

The scribes can be worked with two hypotheses, one that has corrections over hundreds of years, or even 1500 years, a second that has corrections over about a 20-year period in the mid-1800s.

Vaticanus and the Birch collation and manuscripts In Athos are all of special interest, as potential original and correction exemplars.

Claromontanus and it’s sisters 0319 and 0320, also HPaul (015), and the Zurich Psalter in the OT, all have special relationships to Sinaiticus. The textual discoveries for each be explained separately, and there may be others, like the Andreas Revelation text.

The large omissions with corrections are easy to find on the manuscript, we saw about
24 in John,
6 in Romans,
3 in Revelation (will check if that was complete).

=====

The original omission text could be:

a) haplography - homoeoteleuton and homoioarcton

b) other scribal fatigue or inattention

a&b - (The total number of letters missed may help determine exemplar line lengths, and the specific lengths may match specific potential exemplars, like Claromontanus or 0319. When there is a type of match, it would be good to look at shared unusual orthography, nearby text, etc.)

c) copying an exemplar (then using another fuller exemplar for the correction)

=====

Beyond the omissions with corrections, we ask:

What are the large sections that are missing text that is in many Greek manuscripts that remain uncorrected?
A related question.
 
We are now being told that Simonides was both a brilliant forger and a sloppy forger. And we are being told both of these stories by the same person.
A brilliantly sloppy forger? Or a sloppily brilliant forger? 😉 😂 🤣 😂 🤣
I guess some folks just have a hard time keeping their stories straight…
 
The information that would be helpful, especially for the New Testament, but even for one book, or one section, like the Pauline Epistles.

How many large sections have corrections, and which original scribe and which corrector(s) are involved?

The scribes can be worked with two hypotheses, one that has corrections over hundreds of years, or even 1500 years, a second that has corrections over about a 20-year period in the mid-1800s.

Except it's nowhere close to 20 years........Simonides claimed he wrote it in eight months between January and August of 1840 and left Athos, so pray tell who was doing these corrections after Tischendorf took part of it?

The 8-month theory (which is what Avery is trying to stretch into 20 years) only makes sense if a person is dumb enough to actually believe:
a) any prep work AT ALL was necessary, much less the YEARS we are told Benedict did this despite not even knowing until 1839 and then in the revision 1837 that he was even going to do this
b) that it takes a great calligrapher to botch a work - in fact, it apparently takes 3 in this theory
c) YOU USE EXPENSIVE PARCHMENT TO ROYALLY MESS IT ALL UP!!!!



Vaticanus and the Birch collation and manuscripts In Athos are all of special interest, as potential original and correction exemplars.

Truly amusing how many more exemplars Simonides's modern apologists need to try and make their case than he did - as if this is a strength of his position when it's a weakness.

Claromontanus and it’s sisters 0319 and 0320, also HPaul (015), and the Zurich Psalter in the OT, all have special relationships to Sinaiticus.

Yes - they're all called manuscripts.
And no, Sinaiticus wasn't copied from Claromontanus.


The textual discoveries for each be explained separately, and there may be others, like the Andreas Revelation text.

Every single thing in this conspiracy theory concerns speculative nonsense with words like "may" substituting for even more likely options such as "is not."

The large omissions with corrections are easy to find on the manuscript, we saw about
24 in John,
6 in Romans,
3 in Revelation (will check if that was complete).

None of which Steven Avery discovered on his own, and none of which at present can thus be presumed to be accurate.



=====

The original omission text could be:

a) haplography - homoeoteleuton and homoioarcton

b) other scribal fatigue or inattention

a&b - (The total number of letters missed may help determine exemplar line lengths, and the specific lengths may match specific potential exemplars, like Claromontanus or 0319. When there is a type of match, it would be good to look at shared unusual orthography, nearby text, etc.)

c) copying an exemplar (then using another fuller exemplar for the correction)

What's amusing is how much information posted like this sounds like nothing more than a 4th grader giving a book report on a book he didn't actually read.


Beyond the omissions with corrections, we ask:

What are the large sections that are missing text that is in many Greek manuscripts that remain uncorrected?
A related question.

I'm always amused when I'm reminded that I actually worked with this stuff at the ignorance posted by those who never have and who have done nothing more than crib information from the books of the very same textual critics who reject this nonsensical conspiracy theory.
 
You actually do not seem to have done much of anything.

ca, supposedly long after the scriptorium, was often the big honcho corrector.
And hardly any are from supposed original scribes.
And D is nowhere to be found.

Here are the large omissions in John.

John 3:20 - ca
John 3:21 - ca
John 4:45 - ca
John 5:26 - ca
John 6:11 - cb2
John 6:24 (2) - ca
John 6:55 - ca
John 7:50 - ca
John 8:59 - ca and cb2
John 9:38 - ca
John 11:17 - cb2 (just two words, but on top)
John 12:31 - ca
John 15:10 - ca
John 16:15 - ca
John 16:17 - ca
John 19:15 - ca
John 19:20 - A ... long
John 19:23 - ca
John 20:4 - ca
John 20:6 - ca long
John 20:16 - ca and cb2
John 21:6 - ca and cb2 - long
John 21:25 - S1 and * (controversial long omission)

From where are you copying this unattributed information?
 
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