Did Moses, and the people of Israel, kill the paschal lambs on the afternoon of the 14th day?

[Jewjitzu]

You're suggesting that very active imaginations can be fruitful over fifty-four years, increasing in biblical knowledge and not abating even in the face of failure and disappointment on four continents and in over a dozen countries...even through thirty plus years teaching in a state school?

I'm saying your personal experience, while real to you, is fake, and a false spirit.

Lord, didn't we do miracles in your name? Depart from me workers of iniquity, for I have never known you. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

False prophets and teachers can do miracles as well. All tests.

Is your imagination likewise able to sustain you, then? You're certainly giving my imagination more credit than it deserves.

My faith isn't imagination built on fairy-tales of a godman.

Actually...you are now officially in denial. There is no way, using any technology of the middle ages or of the 21st century, to cataclysmically age first century linen fabric using light radiation in such a way as to produce a perfect, anatomically correct photo-negative of a Jewish man that has been tortured in the same way as your Messiah as related in the gospels by the Romans, and. crucified.

Actually, your previous posts showed that earthquakes can cause and the explain all that you think is miraculous.

There is no longer any evidence to the contrary, and any such suggestion is merely wishful thinking, because it is easier to forgive one for being wrong for two thousand years than it is to admit they have been right all along.

See above. You need to read your own links.

Sorry...you're ranting according to the lies established by your forebears. History clearly proclaims otherwise...

You know you can't support nor defend this points, and have been debunked previously.

The Holy Spirit has proven false your claims. There was no Talmud to explain away your failures until you were expelled by the Romans from the land in keeping with the Promise of God.

The spirit of holiness has nothing to do with the growth of Christianity. Wide is the road that leads to perdition.

Israel is back in the land.

 

[Open Heart]

You're suggesting that very active imaginations can be fruitful over fifty-four years, increasing in biblical knowledge and not abating even in the face of failure and disappointment on four continents and in over a dozen countries...even through thirty plus years teaching in a state school?

Is your imagination likewise able to sustain you, then? You're certainly giving my imagination more credit than it deserves.

I value imagination. A good healthy imagination is able to do things like visualize the future so that one can plan, or create something new that is tasty or convenient or even saves lives. I encourage the development of imagination via the reading of fiction, etc.

But imagination can be dangerous when what is imagined is confused with reality.

In particular, what is experienced is more than just sensory input. We all INTERPRET what happens, and sometimes we interpret things totally wrong. I'm not denying that you have these powerful religious experiences with Jesus -- I believe you are being completely honest. What Jewy and I are saying is that your experiences may be deceiving you.

The following video deals specifically with the sorts of imaginary things and misunderstood experiences that drive the belief systems of some people.

 

[tbeachhead]

I value imagination. A good healthy imagination is able to do things like visualize the future so that one can plan, or create something new that is tasty or convenient or even saves lives. I encourage the development of imagination via the reading of fiction, etc.

But imagination can be dangerous when what is imagined is confused with reality.

In particular, what is experienced is more than just sensory input. We all INTERPRET what happens, and sometimes we interpret things totally wrong. I'm not denying that you have these powerful religious experiences with Jesus -- I believe you are being completely honest. What Jewy and I are saying is that your experiences may be deceiving you.

The following video deals specifically with the sorts of imaginary things and misunderstood experiences that drive the belief systems of some people.

I get this: You're imagining what must have happened to me because your own disappointment in your experiences with mainline Christian traditions that have, like Jewish traditions over the centuries, nullified the Word of God in favor of those traditions are so palpable, as they should be on both counts.

You might consider that I had experiences that you have decided not to seek and in fact to eschew because doing what seems right in your own eyes is so satisfying and finds its origins in the book of Judges Projection is never the way to understanding. Psychology is not science. It's purely conjecture elevated to popular appeal. Freud was an innovator. Not a scientist.

 

[tbeachhead]

I'm saying your personal experience, while real to you, is fake, and a false spirit.

You kind of have to say that, though, don't you? Otherwise you'd have to end up considering what I'm saying as an intellectual equal, and you would have to confront your own prejudice and question your error,

Lord, didn't we do miracles in your name? Depart from me workers of iniquity, for I have never known you. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

False prophets and teachers can do miracles as well. All tests.

As well is key. "As well..." means the miracles are real, and they are and have been performed.

No miracle is wrought due to the righteousness of the worker of that miracle. God will heal the sick for the sake of the sick, because of His compassion. Healing is never for the healer. His compassion is toward the lost, isn't it? It's never toward those who proclaim that they are "the found." God did not speak to Balaam through the donkey for the donkey's sake, because the donkey had a special place in heaven. He had a word for Balaam before Balaam delivered one of the most profound blessings on Israel. And God did not speak through Balaam because of Balaam's righteousness. He had a word to deliver to Israel, and Balaam was merely the mailman delivering the mail. That is how this works.

My faith isn't imagination built on fairy-tales of a godman.

No...it's built on twisted history by folks who betrayed Messiah and sought to defend their own error and coverup their betrayal. Nothing they said from the day He rose from the dead is true or accurate, and deprived of the Temple, a lie had to be told, and excuses sustained through new inventions. Yours is nothing even close to a fairy tale...it's pure untruth and human reasoning spawned from tradition.

Actually, your previous posts showed that earthquakes can cause and the explain all that you think is miraculous.

Those were your hilarious previous posts. Mine continue to prove that your conjecture is not even possible. Nothing can age fabric that dramatically, and in the photo-negative anatomically correct image of a clearly Jewish male crucified in the 1st century Roman manner after being flogged as the four gospels describe. You continue to wax more desperate with each denial.

See above. You need to read your own links.

There is no link. You have posted no link, but you prevaricate here, and it's disappointing. Up to this point you have not been this dishonest. I will post the evidence as often as you insist on posting absurdities like this.

You know you can't support nor defend this points, and have been debunked previously.

Well...after you redefine "debunk" as "posting phantasmagorical falsehoods to respond to historical fact" anybody can claim they've debunked anything as you do here.

Your religion was invented, and by your own admission, has no basis in the Laws of Moses, but for the loosely familial ties from centuries ago. Jewish practice in the diaspora bore no resemblance to Levitical practices prescribed by the Torah.

The spirit of holiness has nothing to do with the growth of Christianity. Wide is the road that leads to perdition.

History proves you wrong. Christianity spread throughout the Empire from the south coast of Europe to the north coast of Africa, from Jerusalem to the straits of Atlas by persuasion only, in the face of mortal persecution...

Israel is back in the land.

Some of the Diaspora certainly is, and the name is the same...and the language bears its roots to Moses' Hebrew. And the Jewish faith is not...Except for closing up MacDonalds on Fridays, it's not even close. Atheist "Jews" are as welcome as Kabbalist Jews.

Not quite the same as in David's day, is it?

 

[Open Heart]

You're imagining what must have happened to me because your own disappointment in your experiences with mainline Christian traditions that have, like Jewish traditions over the centuries, nullified the Word of God in favor of those traditions are so palpable, as they should be on both counts.

I'm not sure why you think that I was disappointed. I found being Christian very fulfilling. I loved Jesus with all my heart, and my relationship with him was the axis around which my life turned. My experiences with churches were almost all very positive -- they were loving, supportive communities that accepted me as I am, despite my quirkiness.

I didn't leave Christianity because I was disappointed. I left because I came to see that the evidence showed it was mistaken. It was actually the realization that I had been wrong and that that which I so loved was not real that was so disappointing and painful. It very much hurt me to my core to realize that all the beautiful, meaningful conversations I had had with Jesus were the product of my imagination.

Oh, and I was never mainline Protestant. Evangelical? Yes. Catholic? Yes. But not mainline.

 

[Open Heart]

Otherwise you'd have to end up considering what I'm saying as an intellectual equal,

First, the most important thing is to remain respectful, regardless of whether the other is your intellectual superior, equal, or inferior.

I don't think you are a terribly irrational person nor do I think you are stupid. The very fact that I reply to your posts indicates I believe I can have a rational discussion with you. But I have to say that on many occasions, you have exhibited extreme confirmation bias, meaning that your beliefs are so dear to you that you are unable to see obvious evidence to the contrary.

 

[tbeachhead]

I'm not sure why you think that I was disappointed. I found being Christian very fulfilling. I loved Jesus with all my heart, and my relationship with him was the axis around which my life turned. My experiences with churches were almost all very positive -- they were loving, supportive communities that accepted me as I am, despite my quirkiness.

These are kind and pleasant words. I will try to remember them...and apologize for my own misprision.

I will then remain baffled as to why you would turn from One Who rose from the dead, and is alive to continue to prove to you His call on your life, His grace as expressed through the cross on your behalf...to a desperate invention spawned in panic by a people who betrayed their own Messiah and were forced to invent to coverup their own betrayal.

I didn't leave Christianity because I was disappointed. I left because I came to see that the evidence showed it was mistaken.

Which evidence is that?

1. Certainly not the eye-witness evidence, borne out by the behavior of those eye-witnesses, not one of which, facing imminent death, turned from their eye-witness testimony.
2. Certainly not the evidence of the spread of the church itself, beginning with the eye-witnesses, who carried the Promise without weapons, into an increasingly hostile Empire.
3. Certainly not the evidence of the historic record found in the indomitable New Testament, the historic authenticity of which is unassailable.
4. Certainly not the archaeological record which is considerable, and now inexorably buttressed by the irrefutable evidence presented in the selfie on the shroud and the sudarium of Oviedo.

To what evidence are you referring?

There is no greater bastion of historic record than that which supports historic, primitive Christianity.

It was actually the realization that I had been wrong that was so disappointing and painful. It very much hurt me to my core to realize that all the beautiful, meaningful conversations I had had with Jesus were the product of my imagination.

You might be the first I've met, at least the first I remember, who claimed a "relationship," and then turned from it.

I would be a fool to turn from the One Who has loved me despite my failures, and has, as He promised, never left me nor forsaken me.

The history of my family, with my eight children is a prolonged history of His touch and miraculous provision and deliverance.

Oh, and I was never mainline Protestant. Evangelical? Yes. Catholic? Yes. But not mainline.

If you were Roman Catholic, I understand the lies. If you believed anything out of the Vatican...you were misguided. There is no truth but self-aggrandizement and self-proclaimed invention...much as the Jewish "faith."

 

[tbeachhead]

First, the most important thing is to remain respectful, regardless of whether the other is your intellectual superior, equal, or inferior.

This was a post to Jewjitzu...of whom it might be said "Humility is not one of his strong points..." I have no disrespect for you seasoned posters from the Jewish board, who are so consistently measured in your responses, and well-versed in your own basis, such that your posts are a pleasure to read, to reflect on, and when occasion permits it, to formulate a reasoned response.

I hope that shows in my post...That being said, I do not in my wildest fantasies suggest that Jewjitzu derives the pleasure from my posts that his bring to me. I enjoy your reasoning, and find it both lucid and compelling.

I don't think you are a terribly irrational person nor do I think you are stupid. The very fact that I reply to your posts indicates I believe I can have a rational discussion with you. But I have to say that on many occasions, you have exhibited extreme confirmation bias, meaning that your beliefs are so dear to you that you are unable to see obvious evidence to the contrary.

Thank you. This feeling is mutual, and my first intention in replying to your posts is to demonstrate the respect your posts encourage. My beliefs are indeed dear...but not spawned from another's. As I have often said, I have been reading the Bible from cover to cover since 1970, and since 2017, with three reading plans that I have adopted in a daily routine from the Bible app...my consumption has expanded to at least seven trips annually through the Bible cover to cover, and including Proverbs and Acts being visited monthly. You're seeing the sometimes raw reflection that such a regimen bears.

This isn't to brag, btw, or establish an artificial authority. In 2017 I was desperate for my life to exhibit the freedom Jesus promised to those who "abide in His Word..." I decide to see what abiding would purchase for me...hoping others would benefit from the freedom that abiding brings. It has made conversations here more enjoyable. I really have nothing to prove, And you offer thoughts to which a response is inviting.

 

[tbeachhead]

You might be the first I've met, at least the first I remember, who claimed a "relationship," and then turned from it.

Actually, there was a pair of sisters who had a powerful conversion experience and became regular participants in my youth group. The youngest was also our favorite baby sitter from when our oldest children were toddlers. Their single, divorced mother was a militant atheist, and manager of an area Borders bookstore. Christmas vacation came and went, and neither returned to youth group. I asked the oldest sister if anything had happened, and she warned me never to speak to her again. Immediately, i was called into the headmaster's office and warned of "harassment." I explained that I wasn't harassing, but exploring the status of what had once been a constructive relationship. I was admonished to contact the mother, which I did. That turned into a conversation that lasted hours about what could be taught in my classroom. That resulted in her clearly threatening admonishment not to speak to either daughter but in terms of classroom assignments, which I was in no way otherwise inclined.

As it turned out, the youngest daughter, our former baby sitter, was encouraged by a colleague of mine in guidance to take notes in my class of any compromising words I might speak that would indicate my attempts to proselytize. She collected many "compromising" words...I was teaching Candide, Voltaire's bombastic satire on religion and especially on the Roman and the Protestant church. I was again called into the headmaster's office because I was "teaching religion" in the public school.

He asked, "I've received complaints. Are you teaching religion in your French 3 class?" I replied, "Of course I am."

He rolled his eyes and began to warn me, and I said, "Sir, I'm teaching Voltaire. He makes fun of religion. Do you want the kids to get the jokes? I'm teaching history and eighteenth century, pre-revolutionary culture. Or do you want the jokes to go over their heads...because it's not in our purview to teach history."

Fortunately, he was a former English teacher who had often taught Voltaire in World Literature classes. I did not have to change my curriculum...but my relationship that was formerly so cordial with the family was broken and remains so to this day, thirty years later. That's what false religions do to friendships. Mom thinks she did her daughters a favor. I will not stop hoping for reconciliation.

 

[Open Heart]

These are kind and pleasant words. I will try to remember them...and apologize for my own misprision.''

I will then remain baffled as to why you would turn from One Who rose from the dead, and is alive to continue to prove to you His call on your life, His grace as expressed through the cross on your behalf...to a desperate invention spawned in panic by a people who betrayed their own Messiah and were forced to invent to coverup their own betrayal.

Which evidence is that?

The evidence accumulated over decades before it became critical mass. It would be impossible for me to sum everything up in one post. However, let's see if I can reply to your points up next.

1. Certainly not the eye-witness evidence, borne out by the behavior of those eye-witnesses, not one of which, facing imminent death, turned from their eye-witness testimony.

The gospels are not eye witness accounts. They are collections of legends that accumulated in the decades following Jesus death. They were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. In each case, the writings of more than one author are spliced together to form a more complete text. For example, John has three authors. The original text was something that scholars call the Book of Signs.

1. Certainly not the evidence of the spread of the church itself, beginning with the eye-witnesses, who carried the Promise without weapons, into an increasingly hostile Empire.

The fact that a religion spreads is not indicative of it being true. Heck, Islam spread like wildfire.

1. Certainly not the evidence of the historic record found in the indomitable New Testament, the historic authenticity of which is unassailable.

While legends can have a bit of history, there is so much fiction added onto the account, that it becomes impossible to know for sure where the history ends and the fiction begins. The only thing you can do when reading the gospels is try to use common sense to way the probability that a given event or saying is historically accurate. What are the odds that a virgin birth happened? Zero. What are the odds that Jesus instructed his followers to obey the commandments? Pretty high.

1. Certainly not the archaeological record which is considerable

What archeological record do you think we have that proves Jesus did miracles or rose from the dead or was God?

1. , and now inexorably buttressed by the irrefutable evidence presented in the selfie on the shroud and the sudarium of Oviedo.

Radiometric dating has confirmed that the Shroud is a fraud. It's still highly fascinating, because there is this great mystery about how it was done. But no, it's not the real deal.

To what evidence are you referring?

Like I said, FAR too much to cover in a single post. But I will refer you to a thread I began called Why Jews will Never Accept Jesus, which explores at least some of my main objections. If you can read the opening post, and reply on that thread, it would be ideal!

- Why Jews will never accept Jesus

Welcome back everyone. Christians are frustrated. Of all the peoples on the earth, they would think that the Jews, to whom God has entrusted the oracles, would accept Jesus as the Messiah. But no. Jewish converts have been ultra few. By and large, more than any other people, Jews have been...

forums.carm.org

You might be the first I've met, at least the first I remember, who claimed a "relationship," and then turned from it.

It was a very painful thing to go through. I did meet others in my conversion classes who had had similar experiences. Not everyone was the same of course, but I talked to people who just cried their eyes out and mourned for many months when they realized Jesus wasn't real.

If you were Roman Catholic, I understand the lies. If you believed anything out of the Vatican...you were misguided. There is no truth but self-aggrandizement and self-proclaimed invention...much as the Jewish "faith."

My parents were fundamentalists. My father had been an ordained Methodist minister, but it was a match made in hell -- the denomination hated him because he was a fundamentalist during an era when Methodism was controlled by Social Gospel. The churches we attended after he burned out were all evangelical churches: Church of God (Indiana), First Church of the Nazarene, Evangelical Free, and Friends (the evangelical wing). As a young adult, my hubby and I attended a string of evangelical churches: Calvary Chapel, North American Baptist, and others.

However, after studying Church history, it became clear to me that Evangelicalism had no ties to the early church. Evangelical churches were different from the early church not only in terms of doctrines, but also practices and worship style. The only two branches of Christianity that had a direct and unbroken line back to the Apostles were Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Catholic church.

This is meant to be informative only. I'm not encouraging a debate, since these are Christian issues, and this is the Judaism forum.

 

[Open Heart]

Actually, there was a pair of sisters who had a powerful conversion experience and became regular participants in my youth group. The youngest was also our favorite baby sitter from when our oldest children were toddlers. Their single, divorced mother was a militant atheist, and manager of an area Borders bookstore. Christmas vacation came and went, and neither returned to youth group. I asked the oldest sister if anything had happened, and she warned me never to speak to her again. Immediately, i was called into the headmaster's office and warned of "harassment." I explained that I wasn't harassing, but exploring the status of what had once been a constructive relationship. I was admonished to contact the mother, which I did. That turned into a conversation that lasted hours about what could be taught in my classroom. That resulted in her clearly threatening admonishment not to speak to either daughter but in terms of classroom assignments, which I was in no way otherwise inclined.

As it turned out, the youngest daughter, our former baby sitter, was encouraged by a colleague of mine in guidance to take notes in my class of any compromising words I might speak that would indicate my attempts to proselytize. She collected many "compromising" words...I was teaching Candide, Voltaire's bombastic satire on religion and especially on the Roman and the Protestant church. I was again called into the headmaster's office because I was "teaching religion" in the public school.

He asked, "I've received complaints. Are you teaching religion in your French 3 class?" I replied, "Of course I am."

He rolled his eyes and began to warn me, and I said, "Sir, I'm teaching Voltaire. He makes fun of religion. Do you want the kids to get the jokes? I'm teaching history and eighteenth century, pre-revolutionary culture. Or do you want the jokes to go over their heads...because it's not in our purview to teach history."

Fortunately, he was a former English teacher who had often taught Voltaire in World Literature classes. I did not have to change my curriculum...but my relationship that was formerly so cordial with the family was broken and remains so to this day, thirty years later. That's what false religions do to friendships. Mom thinks she did her daughters a favor. I will not stop hoping for reconciliation.

Amazing. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

My students were much younger, generally ages 8-9. But I wouldn't have been able to function as a teacher if teaching ABOUT religion had been forbidden. Not only would a good deal of fine children's literature have been forbidden, like Anansi the Spider (a religious myth from Africa), but history would have been outrageously deformed for lack of context. How am I supposed to explain why Aztecs sacrificed people if I can't talk about their religion?

And of course teaching ABOUT religion, is not the same as instructing someone in a religion. I never pushed my own faith.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

[Open Heart]

As I have often said, I have been reading the Bible from cover to cover since 1970, and since 2017,

I'm just curious. Back in 1970, why was it that you assumed the Bible was the word of God?

I ask because in my experience, I've notice people often tend to start with this, and it is an assumption on their part that they don't seem to be aware of.

In my case, it simply had to do with the fact that I grew up in a Christian community where everyone I trusted accepted this idea, so I just never really questioned it until much later in life.

 

[tbeachhead]

I'm just curious. Back in 1970, why was it that you assumed the Bible was the word of God?

I'm moved that you would ask. Thank you.

I was a teenager looking for a friend...and answers. By the time I got to 2 Timothy 3, where Paul described my nature in flaming, demonstrable detail, I was terrified and threw the book across my bedroom.

Nothing I had ever read stripped me of my own excuses like that, and read my private mail out loud. This Jesus knew me, and allowed me to come to know Him.

And here's the kicker. That has never changed but has only ever increased over the years.

I ask because in my experience, I've notice people often tend to start with this, and it is an assumption on their part that they don't seem to be aware of.

My encounters began with a guy who knew him...Young Life...and we began in living rooms in the suburb where we were with a handful of kids. By 1972, my senior year, we were over four hundred every week, and had to meet in the town hall auditorium. The message was simple: Jesus died on our behalf, due to the egregious impact of our sin on our lives, and God raised Him from the dead. We were inspired to read on our own...and each of us did. Our "parties" were kids reading the Bible together. My own testimony here is inadequate to express the unforgettable wonder of it all...And I have many friends in my class from that to this day.

In my case, it simply had to do with the fact that I grew up in a Christian community where everyone I trusted accepted this idea, so I just never really questioned it until much later in life.

Episcopalians just go to church...we didn't really have any thing to accept but the tedium of the liturgy. When Young Life impacted my youth group, we put on a Youth Communion at the Resurrection season that was unforgettable, inspired by what we were reading in the gospels.

 

[tbeachhead]

Amazing. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

My students were much younger, generally ages 8-9. But I wouldn't have been able to function as a teacher if teaching ABOUT religion had been forbidden. Not only would a good deal of fine children's literature have been forbidden, like Anansi the Spider (a religious myth from Africa), but history would have been outrageously deformed for lack of context. How am I supposed to explain why Aztecs sacrificed people if I can't talk about their religion?

And of course teaching ABOUT religion, is not the same as instructing someone in a religion. I never pushed my own faith.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

Teachers grow through things. I was always there to help administrators, parents and kids. In a state school no one is obligated to accept me. I bear a basin and a towel and wield it whenever it's possible to serve.

 

[Open Heart]

I was a teenager looking for a friend...and answers. By the time I got to 2 Timothy 3, where Paul described my nature in flaming, demonstrable detail, I was terrified and threw the book across my bedroom.

Nothing I had ever read stripped me of my own excuses like that, and read my private mail out loud. This Jesus knew me, and allowed me to come to know Him.

Yes, it was a moment of awakening for you. That is what makes religious texts so valuable, even when they have many errors -- their uncanny ability to give insight into ourselves.

Our "parties" were kids reading the Bible together.

I remember being a freshman in high school, and how a group of us met every lunch time for Bible study. Looking back, I find it interesting that the Senior who headed the study was so very good looking. LOL

Episcopalians just go to church...we didn't really have any thing to accept but the tedium of the liturgy.

Oh yes, God's "frozen chosen." LOL I really think it depends on the person. In ANY church, the average person only attends the worship service. a smaller group attend Sunday school classes. A minority go to a weeknight Bible study. And a very small minority do things like read their bibles every day and buy commentaries and other books on theology and church history.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the liturgy. Everyone's a little different. My dad thought that liturgy and ritual were "empty," and I was not able to explain to him why I found it so rich and full.

When Young Life impacted my youth group, we put on a Youth Communion at the Resurrection season that was unforgettable, inspired by what we were reading in the gospels.

Young life is a pretty standard evangelical missionary outreach to young people. It seems like a nice organization. It's really very sad that they were caught in a scandal of covering up sexual abuse for decades.

 

[Jewjitzu]

You kind of have to say that, though, don't you? Otherwise you'd have to end up considering what I'm saying as an intellectual equal, and you would have to confront your own prejudice and question your error,

Actually, there's no prejudice on my part. You've claimed to have seen Jesus, have no idea what he looks like, etc.

As well is key. "As well..." means the miracles are real, and they are and have been performed.

No, these miracles have fake origins.

No miracle is wrought due to the righteousness of the worker of that miracle. God will heal the sick for the sake of the sick, because of His compassion. Healing is never for the healer. His compassion is toward the lost, isn't it? It's never toward those who proclaim that they are "the found." God did not speak to Balaam through the donkey for the donkey's sake, because the donkey had a special place in heaven. He had a word for Balaam before Balaam delivered one of the most profound blessings on Israel. And God did not speak through Balaam because of Balaam's righteousness. He had a word to deliver to Israel, and Balaam was merely the mailman delivering the mail. That is how this works.

False. You can look to King Ahaz and Isaiah 7.

No...it's built on twisted history by folks who betrayed Messiah and sought to defend their own error and coverup their betrayal. Nothing they said from the day He rose from the dead is true or accurate, and deprived of the Temple, a lie had to be told, and excuses sustained through new inventions. Yours is nothing even close to a fairy tale...it's pure untruth and human reasoning spawned from tradition.

He never rose from the dead. Talpiot.

Those were your hilarious previous posts. Mine continue to prove that your conjecture is not even possible. Nothing can age fabric that dramatically, and in the photo-negative anatomically correct image of a clearly Jewish male crucified in the 1st century Roman manner after being flogged as the four gospels describe. You continue to wax more desperate with each denial.
There is no link. You have posted no link, but you prevaricate here, and it's disappointing. Up to this point you have not been this dishonest. I will post the evidence as often as you insist on posting absurdities like this.

Actually, your own links debunked you. You should read your sources before posting.

Well...after you redefine "debunk" as "posting phantasmagorical falsehoods to respond to historical fact" anybody can claim they've debunked anything as you do here.

Your own links debunk you.

Your religion was invented, and by your own admission, has no basis in the Laws of Moses,

I never admitted that. You're a liar.

but for the loosely familial ties from centuries ago. Jewish practice in the diaspora bore no resemblance to Levitical practices prescribed by the Torah.

They sure do.

History proves you wrong. Christianity spread throughout the Empire from the south coast of Europe to the north coast of Africa, from Jerusalem to the straits of Atlas by persuasion only, in the face of mortal persecution...

Yep, falsehoods does spread.

Some of the Diaspora certainly is, and the name is the same...and the language bears its roots to Moses' Hebrew. And the Jewish faith is not...Except for closing up MacDonalds on Fridays, it's not even close. Atheist "Jews" are as welcome as Kabbalist Jews.

They're still Jews and the hope is they'll return. All of Christianity is false and idolatrous.

Not quite the same as in David's day, is it?

On it's way. Israel wasn't conquered in one day.

 

[tbeachhead]

Yes, it was a moment of awakening for you. That is what makes religious texts so valuable, even when they have many errors -- their uncanny ability to give insight into ourselves.

You're projecting, I think.

Religious texts don't move me. The Bible moves me because it's alive. I've read the Koran through, and it does not move me...in any sura. I've read the Baghavad Gita and even Khalil Gibran, a lucid mouthpiece for Baha'i. I've read the Book of the Mormon, and AA's blue book. Each was safe from me throwing them across the room. The Bible alone knows me personally, and feeds me like bread.

The Koran, of the list above, is responsible for inspiring the jihad that removed Christianity from its cradle in North Africa, stretched for a thousand years into Spain, and nearly devoured France. The contrast between the spread of Christianity by persuasion in the face of persecution and that of Islam by intrigue and the sword stands as a testimony to the spirit behind each. If you've ever read the book...you know it's not "moving," but sobering indeed in the light of the propaganda being published on its behalf. Remember, it was Muhammed himself who took up the sword and assassinated the Banu Qurayza, a tribe of hundreds of Jews that rejected him.

I remember being a freshman in high school, and how a group of us met every lunch time for Bible study. Looking back, I find it interesting that the Senior who headed the study was so very good looking. LOL

Yeah...that happens. Happy people with hope are made attractive for that.

Oh yes, God's "frozen chosen." LOL I really think it depends on the person. In ANY church, the average person only attends the worship service. a smaller group attend Sunday school classes. A minority go to a weeknight Bible study. And a very small minority do things like read their bibles every day and buy commentaries and other books on theology and church history.

In Virginia Beach, our church was in revival...It was packed for both services and overflowing for the Sunday evening service. With my classmates, we attended both, with Sunday school in between, and made it back for the evening service in time to selfishly snag a front row seat. I had to leave early to make it back on time to my eleven o'clock shift at Hardees...It was still going strong at 10:30.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the liturgy. Everyone's a little different. My dad thought that liturgy and ritual were "empty," and I was not able to explain to him why I found it so rich and full.

I didn't say I didn't "enjoy" the liturgy. I'm enough of a theologian and English specialist to recognize the masterpiece that the Book of Common Prayer is. However rich and stately a liturgy is, even when my Parish was touched by revival in the late seventies, a church that is led by the Holy Spirit invites spontaneous improvisation in response to a message that the Holy Spirit brings. I learned more in response to those Charismatic moments than I did in repeating the same words week after week.

Young life is a pretty standard evangelical missionary outreach to young people. It seems like a nice organization. It's really very sad that they were caught in a scandal of covering up sexual abuse for decades.

That's news to me. I never heard of it, and it certainly was not happening in Cleveland, OH.

Scandal happens. No group has a monopoly. And one can fall from any height. That's why Paul warned us all: "Let the one who thinks he stands take head lest he fall."

 

[Open Heart]

You're projecting, I think.

Religious texts don't move me. The Bible moves me because it's alive.

Erm... the Bible is an example of a religious text. Usually it is the text that is central to one's own culture that seems to inspire the most, although there are exceptions. For example, a person living in Saudi Arabia would have "ah ha" moments with the Quran.

I didn't say I didn't "enjoy" the liturgy. I'm enough of a theologian and English specialist to recognize the masterpiece that the Book of Common Prayer is. However rich and stately a liturgy is, even when my Parish was touched by revival in the late seventies, a church that is led by the Holy Spirit invites spontaneous improvisation in response to a message that the Holy Spirit brings. I learned more in response to those Charismatic moments than I did in repeating the same words week after week.

What you are neglecting to understand is that what worship style works for one person does not work for another. There are a LOT of people who find Pentecostal/charismatic worship services to be chaotic and alarming, and a long ways from assisting with their worship.

That's news to me. I never heard of it, and it certainly was not happening in Cleveland, OH.

Scandal happens. No group has a monopoly. And one can fall from any height. That's why Paul warned us all: "Let the one who thinks he stands take head lest he fall."

Yes, I agree. Sexual predation and its coverup, whether it is kids or women or even men, is pretty pervasive in society. It was not my intent to single out Young Life.

If you want to read more about the scandal, here is a link:

More Young Life victims allege sexual misconduct involving Colorado Springs-based Christian ministry

More victims are speaking out about sexual misconduct allegations against Colorado Springs-headquartered Young Life, a Christian ministry that strengthens the faith of middle school, high school and college students around

gazette.com

 

[tbeachhead]

Actually, there's no prejudice on my part. You've claimed to have seen Jesus, have no idea what he looks like, etc.

That might be the most dishonest thing you've published. You are prejudiced. You are instructed to pre-judge everything and everybody according to the standard you have set to discern "truth," the truth that seems right to your eyes.

No, these miracles have fake origins.

Nope. "Didn't we DO miracles in your name...," not "Didn't we fake miracles in your name..." They would not have made the claim before your Messiah if the miracles were not real.

False. You can look to King Ahaz and Isaiah 7.

I don't understand how you think you're not proving my point. God's Word through Isaiah to Ahaz was his response to Ahaz...and it was not because Ahaz was righteous. Isaiah was obedient, and judgement came upon Ahaz as the Word foretold. Declaring what I said "false" merely gives you the excuse to ignore the principles your prejudice MUST refuse to consider.

"Truth from the Goyim? Impossible." Prejudice. Nothing more.

He never rose from the dead. Talpiot.

Wishful, proven laughable, pathetic hoax. He rose from the dead. Selfie impossible to fake. He was murdered by your fathers who have since desperately tried to cover it up to no avail.

Actually, your own links debunked you. You should read your sources before posting.

Your own links debunk you.

You never went to the videos...you have no clue what it means to "debunk." Your efforts prove this point.

I never admitted that. You're a liar.

You have said you no longer follow Moses law, and you've come up with workarounds. I did not lie...you have not grappled with the fact that after your religion died upon the death of your Messiah, you were forced to invent workarounds. You have no priests, no urim no thummim, no ark, no tabernacle...no sacrifice...no covenant, no light.

They sure do.

Create symbolism...call it sufficient.

There is no resemblance to what Moses taught in the desert. And no priest to carry it out.

Yep, falsehoods does spread.

You've proven that...not just with your religion...but with your hoaxes that you spread here. "Talpiot"?

They're still Jews and the hope is they'll return. All of Christianity is false and idolatrous.

Thank you for proving my point. "Jew" for you is a racist term...and the Torah has no bearing on the title.

That's why the true Jew, Paul, the greatest Jewish Writer of all time, said, "They are not all Jews who are called Israel, and they are not all Israel who call themselves Israel." For you, it's a matter of who your mother is.

For Jeremiah it was all about the circumcision of the heart...something you cannot bring yourself to understand.

On it's way. Israel wasn't conquered in one day.

The land was not conquered in one day...and the conquest was arrested when the Law was broken.

To what degree does the Law even matter in your vapid claims to day. At one point you should come to grips with your own claims to authority.

 

[tbeachhead]

Erm... the Bible is an example of a religious text. Usually it is the text that is central to one's own culture that seems to inspire the most, although there are exceptions. For example, a person living in Saudi Arabia would have "ah ha" moments with the Quran.

The Bible is unique in all the world, and wholly accurate in its claims, unlike any other religious text.

Additionally, in both the New and Old testaments, it has unprecedented accuracy of transmission throughout its content. Where variants exist, the content represented is minimal. In contrast, the Koran had so many variants that they had to gather all the variants, choose one and burn the rest. No other book bears the authority that the Bible has, both old and new. The bonanza found at Kumran only buttresses the claim. Unprecedented.

What you are neglecting to understand is that what worship style works for one person does not work for another. There are a LOT of people who find Pentecostal/charismatic worship services to be chaotic and alarming, and a long ways from assisting with their worship.

Yeah...no. My mom loved the Episcopalian liturgy, and I loved my mom. When the priest became spirit-filled, the nature of the service changed dramatically, but by that time, I was already teaching on the north coast in northeast Ohio. Paul describes a charismatic service in 1 Corinthians 14...folks were prophesying, and I was seen by all, and known by all, even those who could not possibly know me. God was indeed among them, because ONLY Christ could know what I needed, and He always answered my queries.

Yes, I agree. Sexual predation and its coverup, whether it is kids or women or even men, is pretty pervasive in society. It was not my intent to single out Young Life.

Nor my intent to misconstrue. You break my heart, because I've taught kids since 1978, and I saw predators from the very beginning. I've seen teachers/colleagues go to jail. But I've worked in a school since 1987 where the staff is dedicated to the families of this town and their children, and we step in to protect the children at all cost. We have not been without incident in the thirty-seven years. We have been without incident that was not immediately addressed and corrected with the well-being of the victims coming first.

If you want to read more about the scandal, here is a link:

More Young Life victims allege sexual misconduct involving Colorado Springs-based Christian ministry

More victims are speaking out about sexual misconduct allegations against Colorado Springs-headquartered Young Life, a Christian ministry that strengthens the faith of middle school, high school and college students around

gazette.com

I don't. So much good happened to so many of my friends who went to camp in Colorado. I will grieve with all who love.

...I read it anyway...This is the danger in any ministry, and there is nothing more threatening and more egregious. I was surrounded by good people, staff and friends, in my day...but as you observed. We are good looking when we have hope, and find peace and joy. How do you teach self-control in a culture where that is taboo?

I taught at a Christian boarding school where the female gym instructor has been sued for grooming girls on her teams while I was there. One of my student friends has described her own trauma. I was there for two years, and never knew this was happening. My relationships, especially with the troubled, have continued to this day on FB. One of those students, Pastor Andrew Brunson, an admirable 23 year pastor in Smyrna, Turkey was on national news when Trump rescued him from Erdogan's dungeons, where he was held hostage for two years. Bad things have happened throughout the history of the church. The good is forgotten at our own risk and peril.

Kids need so much more today. But thank you so much for this. I have no illusions. I have hundreds of kids I truly wish the best for...includijng the personal revelation of His love and His call on each life.,