Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Russia said they would never invade Ukraine if Ukraine gave them their nuclear weapons.
Everyone knew Putin would break that agreement.Putin has been invading countries since he came to power.
Do you support war with Russia?
- Thread starter Thistle
- Start date
Everyone knew Putin would break that agreement.Putin has been invading countries since he came to power.
Furion
Well-known member
Only if the likes of shi man, backup and whateverman go on the front lines, to match their brave stances on the internet.
Harry Leggs
Super Member
No treaty. They can say anything. Just like the United States promised aid to South Vietnam so they could neutralize the expansionist ambitions of the north and then reneged. The south fell.
We do not know that so don't make predictions you cannot keep. How hard is it for you all to understand Putin will not allow NATO in Ukraine and NATO expansion in the last fifty years?
That is a lie. Are you referencing the voices in your head?
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
No treaty?Russia broke the treaty in 2014.
The treaty prevents Ukraine and Russia from invading one another's country respectively, and declaring war.[2]
Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty - Wikipedia
Harry Leggs
Super Member
Not true. Again, Russia does not want NATO in Ukraine.
You read your own links?The treaty prevents Ukraine and Russia from invading one another's country respectively, and declaring war.[2]
Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Termination
On 19 September 2018, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a decree not to extend the treaty. On 3 December 2018, Poroshenko drafted a legislation to Parliament to end the Treaty of Friendship immediately; support came from Western allies within the United Nations Security Council.[3][17] According to Poroshenko the non-renewal "does not require a vote" in the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine announced that on 21 September 2018, it would notify the United Nations and other relevant organizations on the termination of the treaty.[18] Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that it was notified on 24 September 2018 of the treaty's termination by Ukraine and expressed regret.[19]Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.
Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.
In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.
Now, that agreement is front and center again.
Mariana Budjeryn of Harvard University spoke with All Things Considered about the legacy of the Budapest Memorandum and its impact today.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Interview highlights
On whether Ukraine foresaw the impact of denuclearizingIt is hard to estimate whether Ukrainians would foresee the impact.
It is clear that Ukrainians knew they weren't getting the exactly legally binding, really robust security guarantees they sought.
But they were told at the time that the United States and Western powers — so certainly at least the United States and Great Britain — take their political commitments really seriously. This is a document signed at the highest level by the heads of state. So the implication was Ukraine would not be left to stand alone and face a threat should it come under one.
And I think perhaps there was even a certain sense of complacency on the Ukrainian part after signing this agreement to say, "Look, we have these guarantees that were signed," because incidentally, into Ukrainian and Russian, this was translated as a guarantee, not as an assurance.
So they had this faith that the West would stand by them, or certainly the United States, the signatories, and Great Britain, would stand up for Ukraine should it come under threat. Although, the precise way was not really proscribed in the memorandum
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Harry Leggs
Super Member
Not really. It was Ukraine who did a illegal coup with a legally elected President when they could have voted him out a year later. Russia was not about to allow the Crimea Navy base to fall into the hands of NATO. Besides there was Ukraine provocation in the eastern part where they were persecuting Russian speaking seperatists who wished to join with Russia. It was civil war. Russia will not tolerate NATO in Ukraine.
The illegal coup, supported by the U.S., was the nexus for annexing Crimea. Illegal coups not consistent with western democracies. The U.S. resorted to illegal coups and this was all under Biden and Obama and Nuland. All Biden players. Under Trump there was no armed conflict. You got two example of armed conflict under Biden et all. None under Trump. We had peace under Trump and war under Biden, twice.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Your delusional.
Ukraine is not in NATO.
Russia invaded Ukraine when Ukraine was never in NATO.
Russia broke the treaty ,not Ukraine.
Harry Leggs
Super Member
Ukraine wants to be in NATO and NATO is receptive. These are facts.
Not according to the Russians. It was Ukraine who violated Minsk according to the Russians. You keep ignoring facts.
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Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO till after Russia's 2014 invasion.
Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1991.[1] Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] Amid the unrest caused by the Euromaidan protests, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.[6] The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country's non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO.[7] However, following the Russian military invasion in Ukraine and parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.[
Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Ukraine has wanted to join NATO ever since Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.
It had no interest in joining NATO at the time of the invasion.
Harry Leggs
Super Member
it was prior to 2014 so you are wrong.
Wrong again.
This is from seven yrs ago.
Thistle
Well-known member
The questions are very important public policy questions.
Our government is supposed to be subject to the will of the sovereign people of the United States. Do we agree on that?
It seems at this point that, that is true. But the only way that this can change is if the American people engage this discussion and elevate the dialogue to the point where it can't be ignored by the elitists.
Thistle
Well-known member
The Russians are not Nazis the Ukrainians are.
No war and no use of nukes. Not our job to play the global policeman.
On the other hand, while I've always been against the draft, it might be good for boys today to get drafted, but, no, I wouldn't really want that, either.
Thistle
Well-known member
I agree.
Shilohsfoal
Well-known member
Ukrainians can vote for their president.
Russian can vote for Putin.Anyone oppose Putin ,they die or spend the rest of their lives In prison.Alot of people have been falling out windows lately.
Putin is a dictator who no one can oppose.No one can unseat dictator Putin.
Russia is a fascist state.
often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
inertia
Super Member
I'm with Putin on this because I have reason to believe that he, along with the United States, does not want mother Russia to be a radioactive wasteland.
[ The again, I might be wrong if Putin is mentally unstable. ]
______
Thistle
Well-known member
Yes, the United States toppled the president of the democratically elected in the orange revolution. Not one of our prouder moments.
Right, we had a rather unfortunate rash of Arkancides a few years ago.
And I'm glad I don't live in Putin's Russia. However he's rather popular among Russians.
Try and unseating the deep state in Washington DC and see how far you get.
So is Washington DC.
Well, it's the Ukrainians that are Nazis.