Does, or can, our eschatological beliefs have an effect on our soteriology?

[fltom]

All Israel will be saved, when the last Soul is added to the Church on earth, then all Israel will be saved

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gods words clearly shows (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 11:25-32 (ESV)
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.



Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

We pretty much agree with one exception

Romans 9:6-8 (ESV)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

this passage refers to ethnic Israelites who are descended from Isaac

The promise is this

“Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

 

[Truth7t7]

We pretty much agree with one exception

Romans 9:6-8 (ESV)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

this passage refers to ethnic Israelites who are descended from Isaac

The promise is this

“Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

My KJV is straight forward

"They Which Are The Children Of The Flesh (Jews) These Are Not The Children Of God

Perhaps you need to dump the (ESV) and come on over to the time and tested KJV 411 years and going strong!

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gods words clearly shows (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[guest1]

How could you claim "Israel" as a nation will be saved, when scripture clearly teaches they wont obtain salvation, only the elect remnant will be saved and "Added" to the church on earth

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, and you claim national Israel will be saved?

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Where does it say Israel will be “ added” to the church ?

 

[Truth7t7]

Where does it say Israel will be “ added” to the church ?

It states the "Remnant" elect Jew will be saved, and when you are saved that makes a believer "Church" pretty neat

I showed you Roman's 11:7-8, Israel will be blind to salvation, are you pretending like post #1,119 dosen't exist?

 

[fltom]

My KJV is straight forward, "They Which Are The Children Of The Flesh (Jews) These Are Not The Children Of God

Perhaps you need to dump the (ESV) and come on over to the time and tested KJV 411 years and going strong!

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gods words clearly shows (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Your first problem is the KJV is my most often used version

Your second problem is you have misinterpreted the passage no matter what version you choose

Romans 9:7 (ESV)
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

The children of the flesh are those who were sons of Abraham but not in Isaac line which was even further divided

Romans 9:9-13 (ESV)
9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

where Jacobs lineage selected as opposed to Esau

The children of the promise were therefore those in the line of Jacob (Israel)

The rest though in Abraham's lineage were the children of the flesh

 

[fltom]

I am totally against the continuation of the Old Covenant as an Institution; even if only Ceremonially...

It is finished...

Agreed

 

[Truth7t7]

Your first problem is the KJV is my most often used version

Your second problem is you have misinterpreted the passage no matter what version you choose

Romans 9:7 (ESV)
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

The children of the flesh are those who were sons of Abraham but not in Isaac line which was even further divided

Romans 9:9-13 (ESV)
9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

where Jacobs lineage selected as opposed to Esau

The children of the promise were therefore those in the line of Jacob (Israel)

The rest though in Abraham's lineage were the children of the flesh

I disagree, the scripture is very simple, two Israel's are seen, one of the flesh (Jews) one of the Spirit (Church) no rocket science there my friend

Feel free to believe as you wish, no changing my mind

 

[guest1]

It states the "Remnant" elect Jew will be saved, and when you are saved that makes a believer "Church" pretty neat

I showed you Roman's 11:7-8, Israel will be blind to salvation, are you pretending like post #1,119 dosen't exist?

Which doesn't mean the "church"

Was Abraham and David Saved ?

 

[fltom]

Where does it say Israel will be “ added” to the church ?

It doesn't overtly say it but it does say

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[guest1]

It doesn't overtly say it but it does say

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Thanks but I was referring to the specific context the other poster was inferring to from Romans.

 

[Truth7t7]

Thanks but I was referring to the specific context the other poster was inferring to from Romans.

We will go real slow, you have stated National Israel will be saved

Scripture teaches National Israel wont be saved, "Israel Hath Not Obtained"

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, they dont obtain salvation

Only the Remnant Elect Jew, those who God foreknew will be saved, and when they obtain salvation they become the "Church", that's as simple as it gets

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[fltom]

Thanks but I was referring to the specific context the other poster was inferring to from Romans.

Ok but i think that can be implied by the reference to what appears to be one good Olive tree

Romans 11:12-24 (KJV)
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

the image of the one good olive tree-

with natural branches broken off and grafted back in again- Israel and the grafted in wild olive tree - gentiles

together form one good olive tree

 

[fltom]

We will go real slow, you have stated National Israel will be saved

Scripture teaches National Israel wont be saved, "Israel Hath Not Obtained"

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, they dont obtain salvation

Only the Remnant Elect Jew, those who God foreknew will be saved, and when they obtain salvation they become the "Church", that's as simple as it gets

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

I think you need to read further

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[guest1]

We will go real slow, you have stated National Israel will be saved

Scripture teaches National Israel wont be saved, "Israel Hath Not Obtained"

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, they dont obtain salvation

Only the Remnant Elect Jew, those who God foreknew will be saved, and when they obtain salvation they become the "Church", that's as simple as it gets

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

And you think your view is new to me ?

You have your pov as do I and guess what neither of us will be changing the others mind anytime soon on this " NON ESSENTIAL " view of Israel and the Church.

I have provided some world renown Calvinist scholars/theologians who agree with my pov.

Do you think you could change their minds as well ?

My view is within orthodoxy unless you think the Calvinists I named like John Murray are unorthodox.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Truth7t7]

Iij

I think you need to read further

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Reading further didnt change a thing, you will closely note you stated to read further without a claim to be made, nice job!

 

[Truth7t7]

And you think your view is new to me ?

You have your pov as do I and guess what neither of us will be changing the others mind anytime soon on this " NON ESSENTIAL " view of Israel and the Church.

I have provided some world renown Calvinist scholars/theologians who agree with my pov.

Do you think you could change their minds as well ?

My view is within orthodoxy unless you think the Calvinists I named like John Murray are unorthodox.

hope this helps !!!

No desire to change your mind, just providing the truth of scripture, only the Remnant elect Jew will be saved, National Israel as a whole will be blind and not obtain salvation, it's that simple

Scripture teaches National Israel wont be saved, "Israel Hath Not Obtained"

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, they dont obtain salvation

Only the Remnant Elect Jew, those who God foreknew will be saved, and when they obtain salvation they become the "Church", that's as simple as it gets

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this

 

[guest1]

No desire to change your mind, just providing the truth of scripture, only the Remnant elect Jew will be saved, National Israel as a whole will be blind and not obtain salvation, it's that simple

Scripture teaches National Israel wont be saved, "Israel Hath Not Obtained"

God has given Israel a spirit of slumber, with closed eyes and ears, they dont obtain salvation

Only the Remnant Elect Jew, those who God foreknew will be saved, and when they obtain salvation they become the "Church", that's as simple as it gets

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this

Continue reading Romans

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Are all the gentiles already saved or still being saved in the present ? yes or no

next...............................................

hope this helps !!! ?

 

[Truth7t7]

Continue reading Romans

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Are all the gentiles already saved or still being saved in the present ? yes or no

next...............................................

hope this helps !!! ?

All Israel will be saved, when the last Soul is added to the Church on earth

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gods words clearly shows (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Carbon]

You can knock yourself out I’m done with both of you when it comes to scripture. Both are arrogant and unteachable. No more pearls

Play tiddlywinks with yourselves.

Next

Civic, first you ignored these things. Then you wanted me to explain. They you went back to ignoring. Then back to wanting me to explain. Now your not interested. ?
Please, make up your mind.
What do you want?

And who put you in possession of the pearls?

The so called pearls your casting I’ve seen before. I’ve looked them over real good, and they have come up wanting.

 

[guest1]

All Israel will be saved, when the last Soul is added to the Church on earth

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gods words clearly shows (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

I do not deny a spiritual Israel but you deny a physical Israel, the Jews and all the promises from God to their land. My theology holds to both being true, yours denies all the hundreds of promises given to them about their physical land and spiritualize all the promises.

There is a temporary hold with them until all the nations comes against them and they will recognize Him whom they have pierced at His 2nd Coming as their Promised Messiah when He rules and reigns in the millennial kingdom. But I suppose you spiritualize all those promises to them as well in the major/minor prophets. Jesus elaborated on that in Matthew 24 and John in revelation.

I don't "spiritualize" any of those promises since they were understood to be literal in the OT and again in the NT about their future in the land.

hope this helps !!!