Does the Bible Speak of Salvation to Lower Kingdoms? Mormons do!

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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Mormonism:

General Salvation—that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ.

Individual Salvation—that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, p. 134
 
Mormonism:
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual; Enrichment G
God has said that no one can come unto Him except by His laws. If we receive and obey His laws, then we will come to know God and become like Him, thus having eternal life. (See D&C 132:11–12, 21–25, 32; John 17:3). It is only by obedience to law that one can become sanctified. Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Savior through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each of us must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom we inherit (see D&C 88:21–24; 34–35).
 
1 Corinthians 15:40 “Also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial; (added) but the glory of the celestial, one; and the terrestrial, another; and the telestial, (added) another.

Joseph Smith coined the word “telestial” and added it to scripture in an effort to prove the false doctrine of three glories as taught in the Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 76. In this passage, Paul is simply comparing the difference between heavenly (celestial) bodies and earthly (terrestrial) bodies.

The correct translation from God's word: 1 Corinthians 15:40 - There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. Again, Paul is simply comparing heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.
 
Mormonism:
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual; Enrichment G
God has said that no one can come unto Him except by His laws. If we receive and obey His laws, then we will come to know God and become like Him, thus having eternal life. (See D&C 132:11–12, 21–25, 32; John 17:3). It is only by obedience to law that one can become sanctified. Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Savior through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each of us must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom we inherit (see D&C 88:21–24; 34–35).
The Bible teaches the opposite

Living Bible
20 The Ten Commandments were given so that all could see the extent of their failure to obey God’s laws. But the more we see our sinfulness, the more we see God’s abounding grace forgiving us. 21 Before, sin ruled over all men and brought them to death, but now God’s kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
No. Mormons don't. Our critics believe in a binary system, heaven or hell. Will the child who steals a piece of gun burn in hell for eternity with the murderer... According to them, he might. God will know his heart (he should, he created it from nothing. He made him evil) so, it is just that the child burn because God knew he would have grown up to be an axe murderer. That's the only two kinds of people there are. Evil people that God likes and evil people that God hates and based on that, you'll go to one of two places. That doesn't sound like justice to me.
 
Mormonism:

General Salvation—that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ.
Yes, salvation over physical death.
Individual Salvation—that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, p. 134
So you believe salvation is obtained by willful disobedience?
@Theo1689 @Bonnie Here's a perfect example.
Janice is implying that the gospel is lawlessness, and obedience isn't necessary.
 
Yes, salvation over physical death.

So you believe salvation is obtained by willful disobedience?
@Theo1689 @Bonnie Here's a perfect example.
Janice is implying that the gospel is lawlessness, and obedience isn't necessary.
Nope. You're missing the R.I.P. (really important part): "man merits". There is absolutely no way anyone can merit Heaven, anymore than you or I can swim by ourselves to the Moon. The bar is set at perfection. Not "good enough", nor "pretty close" but 100% perfection. Never, ever – wittingly nor unwittingly, in thought, word, or deed – is breaking a commandment acceptable.

Basically, you and I have as good a chance at meriting Heaven as Caesar Nero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And that's the good news. Once we realize we cannot merit Heaven by ourselves, we cry out, "Oh, wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death?" And the answer comes: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

Of course, most people find this quite offensive! "No! No!" they cry. "There must be something I can do!" And the reply comes, "This is what God would have you do: believe on Him whom He hath sent." And being told that, many depart saying, "This is too hard for us. Let's go find some way to merit Heaven on our own." (A fool's errand, in deed.)

--Rich
 
So you believe salvation is obtained by willful disobedience?
@Theo1689 @Bonnie Here's a perfect example.

Since Janice NEVER said any such thing, it is a perfect example of you MISREPRESENTING her.

Janice is implying that the gospel is lawlessness, and obedience isn't necessary.

No, she is not "implying" any such thing.
And everyone notice, he has to use the wiggle-word, "imply", because he can't quote the words he wants to shove in Janice's mouth.

It's a shame how disrespectfully Mormons treat women.
 
No. Mormons don't. Our critics believe in a binary system, heaven or hell. Will the child who steals a piece of gun burn in hell for eternity with the murderer... According to them, he might. God will know his heart (he should, he created it from nothing. He made him evil) so, it is just that the child burn because God knew he would have grown up to be an axe murderer. That's the only two kinds of people there are. Evil people that God likes and evil people that God hates and based on that, you'll go to one of two places. That doesn't sound like justice to me.
Doesn't the Book of Mormon teach that injustice ?
 
Our critics believe in a binary system, heaven or hell.

... which is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches.
You do know, I hope, that this is the "Mormonism" forum, not the "critics" forum?
Yet you CONSTANTLY go off-topic.
We know why you do this. You do this because you know Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible, and so you are forced to derail Mormonism out of embarassment.

Will the child who steals a piece of gun burn in hell for eternity with the murderer...

I guess that depends on whether the piece of gun is the hammer, the striker, or the magazine release. <Chuckle>

But I won't dodge your question based on your typo, I'm more than happy to demonstrate your ignorance of the teachings of Jesus and the Bible:

Matt. 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
 
Nope. You're missing the R.I.P. (really important part): "man merits". There is absolutely no way anyone can merit Heaven, anymore than you or I can swim by ourselves to the Moon. The bar is set at perfection. Not "good enough", nor "pretty close" but 100% perfection. Never, ever – wittingly nor unwittingly, in thought, word, or deed – is breaking a commandment acceptable.

Basically, you and I have as good a chance at meriting Heaven as Caesar Nero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And that's the good news. Once we realize we cannot merit Heaven by ourselves, we cry out, "Oh, wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death?" And the answer comes: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

Of course, most people find this quite offensive! "No! No!" they cry. "There must be something I can do!" And the reply comes, "This is what God would have you do: believe on Him whom He hath sent." And being told that, many depart saying, "This is too hard for us. Let's go find some way to merit Heaven on our own." (A fool's errand, in deed.)

--Rich
You're basically summarizing Paul. But Paul was referring to the Mosaic Law.
Do you know what the laws and ordinances of the gospel are in mormonism? It's essentially accepting Jesus Christ. It's to have faith, repent, and be baptized, and follow the Holy Ghost.
You don't believe by repenting and receiving Jesus Christ we will (merit) receive salvation? That's not earning salvation, that's receiving the gift of salvation provided for us. How do you know you'll receive salvation if there's nothing, absolutely nothing, you can do?
 
You're basically summarizing Paul. But Paul was referring to the Mosaic Law.
Do you know what the laws and ordinances of the gospel are in mormonism? It's essentially accepting Jesus Christ. It's to have faith, repent, and be baptized, and follow the Holy Ghost.

Those aren't "laws".

You don't believe by repenting and receiving Jesus Christ we will (merit) receive salvation?

Why do you insist on constantly MISREPRESENTING Christians?
Don't you realize that all you're doing is destroying your own credibility?

As long as you remove the misleading term "merit", your claim is 100% Christianity, and no "Mormonism" was ever needed. You stole that theology from US.

How do you know you'll receive salvation if there's nothing, absolutely nothing, you can do?

Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance of the Bible.

2Cor. 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2Cor. 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

What does the term, "guarantee" mean to you?
 
@Aaron32
I politely asked for a link to the post you obviously despised and accused me of wrongdoing. You are being combative and apparently don't want an explanation by me.

Let me say that the Bible tells me to contend for the faith.

Mormonism teaches Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, copyright 1981. p. 36:

D&C 18:20-21. Why Is It Improper to Contend?

The word contend carries with it ideas of debate, striving, struggling, and even quarreling and disputing. The Savior taught that such a method of doing missionary work is contrary to gospel principles (see 3 Nephi 11: 28-30). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the same principle: "The Elders would go forth, and each must stand for himself . . . to go in all meekness, in sobriety, and preach Jesus Christ ahd Him crucified; not to contend with others on account of their faith, or systems of religion, but pursue a steady course. This I delivered by way of commandment, and all who observe it not will pull down persecution upon their heads, while those who do, shall always be filled with the Holy Ghost; this I pronounced as a prophecy, and sealed with hosanna and amen." (History of the Church, 2:431.)

Are Mormons here to proselytize or debate?
 
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...Janice is implying that the gospel is lawlessness, and obedience isn't necessary.
I NEVER described Gospel as lawlessness. The gospel does NOT teach Christians to disobey Christ nor does it teach that the gift of eternal life is earned by our obedience to Mormon laws and ordinances.
 
Nope. You're missing the R.I.P. (really important part): "man merits". There is absolutely no way anyone can merit Heaven,
Our church doesn't teach that men can. But we do need to merit Christ's atonement. He doesn't ask much. Everything we have to do, we can easily do. The rest is based on a commitment that we will strive to keep his commandments.
anymore than you or I can swim by ourselves to the Moon.
That's the point, isn't it? We're not doing this by ourselves.
The bar is set at perfection. Not "good enough", nor "pretty close" but 100% perfection. Never, ever – wittingly nor unwittingly, in thought, word, or deed – is breaking a commandment acceptable.
Then you missed the point of the atonement. The fact remains, that anyone who will live in the kingdom of God will have to be 100% prefect or he cannot dwell there. It may take some of us a very long time to get there, but you can't live there if you have any sin, wittingly or unwittingly. We might as well start learning now.
Basically, you and I have as good a chance at meriting Heaven as Caesar Nero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And that's the good news. Once we realize we cannot merit Heaven by ourselves, we cry out, "Oh, wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death?" And the answer comes: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
The is just another excuse to accept our shortcomings and continue sinning., which isn't have as bad as many so-called Christians who actually use their religion to carry out heinous acts, like murder. Start now or start later, you're going to have to learn to live the kind of life that God lives or you can't live where He does.
Of course, most people find this quite offensive! "No! No!" they cry. "There must be something I can do!"
It's not offensive. It's just wrong. You call the "good news" is not being able to do anything. That's false and wrong. We can repent. The only way we can repent is through the atonement. That's the good news. You're calling evil good and good evil. We can do something and the Bible teaches what we can do. If you aren't doing that, then you can't be saved until you are.
 
... will have to be 100% prefect ...

I thought this error was particularly bad...

The is just another excuse to accept our shortcomings and continue sinning.,

No, it is not.
REGARDLESS of the fact that this is OFF-TOPIC, since you are trying to mud-sling the critics, NOBODY is justifying to "continue sinning".

But we realize that you know that Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible, which is why you feel the need to constantly derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, which you realize you are incapable of defending.

which isn't have as bad as

"have as bad"?
Seriously?!

many so-called Christians who actually use their religion to carry out heinous acts, like murder.

Off-topic, and a gross MISREPRESENTATION.

But we realize that you know that Mormonism is bankrupt and indefensible, which is why you feel the need to constantly derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, which you realize you are incapable of defending.

It's not offensive. It's just wrong. You call the "good news" is not being able to do anything.

No, the true "good news" is what CHRIST can do (and has done).
You deny the Christian messiah.
Sad and pathetic.

You're calling evil good and good evil.

Nope.
That's the Mormons who do that.

We can do something and the Bible teaches what we can do. If you aren't doing that, then you can't be saved until you are.

Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, John 6:44, Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13 all refute you.
More Bible passages that Mormons REJECT and RUN AWAY from.
 
I politely asked for a link to the post you obviously despised and accused me of wrongdoing.
Please provide a link where this occurred.

This just another twist in the every winding path that our critics wander around on never seeming to get anywhere. If we disagree with you, then we're attacking you. If we say what we believe your doing, then we're accusing you of wrongdoing. The slug is deep in here.

I keep pointing out that doing good is important, but not necessary. Am I accusing you of wrongdoing? So, the question is, is doing good/keeping the commandments, is it necessary or not?
You are being combative
You're being combative. How dare you disagree with what we say.
apparently don't want an explanation by me.
apparently, we're not going to get one.
Let me say that the Bible tells me to contend for the faith.
I find it rather telling how you interpret that passage. It was not meant as a tool to use to bludgeon those who don't believe to death and condemn them to hell. I like the literal rendition of the word ἐπαγωνίζομαι - "to struggle upon, appropriately". It was given to the believers to struggle against those who entered the church, who were KNOWN and rejected, to keep them from corrupting the faith that they were given. Specifically, that those who had been rejected, used the "grace of God for license to immorality". That's the course our critics are on. Do I need to name certain evangelicals who did that very thing?

It has nothing to do with teaching your beliefs to others not of your faith or who disagree with your beliefs. We're certainly not advocating immorality, but it appears that you all do. I quote one post:
The bar is set at perfection. Not "good enough", nor "pretty close" but 100% perfection. Never, ever – wittingly nor unwittingly, in thought, word, or deed – is breaking a commandment acceptable.
Isn't the fact that we can never be good enough an excuse to immorality? After all, God will beat you with a few stripes (if that) and all will be well in the kingdom of God. He did all the work so you don't have to.

The question being pursued here has always been, are we to do nothing but stand by and watch God do all the work so we can go about our sins unmolested? At what point does such action make us any different that all the other sinners in the world? Where is the line to be drawn dividing the sheep from the goats? Don't the sheep have to do something? I believe the Bible says they do.

The problem, as I see it, is that you can't address that conundrum because it will destroy your argument that salvation is free. It's obviously not. Even you all must agree that those who are saved must do something that those who are not saved will not do. You must, but you won't. You'll all die on that hill refusing to accept the fact that salvation can only come through works of faith and therefore is works-based.

The sad things is that you may accept part of that, but you refused to accept that those who aren't of your faith may also be saved for the very same reasons you are, works. If God is not a respecter of persons, then it's not the person that wins the honor, it is what the person does that wins it. Work is the common denominator. This must be so or else the whole world who are ignorant of God through no fault of their own is damned. Do people have to accept Christ to be saved? The Bible says they do. You all have upended the Bible and decided for God that he will just know the hearts of those who come before him in judgment... but no one will ever really know until they have the opportunity, the same as everyone else did to receive Christ based on faith. The Bible explains exactly how this is done and still, you all are ignorant of it. John 5:29 makes that common denominator clear. It is works, whether they be evil or good. Religion or beliefs have nothing to do with it. Cornelius is a great example of how that works. I suggest you read and learn. We're all running out of time.
 
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