Here is a good question for Pentecostals and Charismatics.

[Yahweh will increase]

You have often spoke of Tongues as being a heavenly language, and you base at least some of your idea on this from Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1.

"If I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love, what does it profit me?"

So here is the question.

If it is a heavenly language not used for communication and that the angels use in heaven to edify themselves with, then why would Paul say it will cease when that which is complete has come?

1 Corinthians 13:
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Notice this also, for Paul only mentions three things that shall cease when that which is complete has come and it is " the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues and the gift of knowledge (not referring to knowledge in general) and he never says that miracles of healing but of course if tongues will cease then so would interpreation of tongues and which wouldn't need to be mentioned therefore.

Oh and by the way, did you happen to notice how Paul uses the idea of a child maturing into a full grown man when he speaks of the coming into a completeness in this passage?

Oh and here is something else, he says that tongues shall cease (future tense) and not that they have already at that time and then he goes into chapter 14 which is referring to the present tense while those gifts are still in operation within the church and therefore your argument that they would continue right until the the coming of Christ fails.

So if it is a heavenly language that angels use in heaven like you believe about it, then why would it cease or need to cease?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

You have often spoke of Tongues as being a heavenly language, and you base at least some of your idea on this from Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1.

"If I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love, what does it profit me?"

So here is the question.

If it is a heavenly language not used for communication and that the angels use in heaven to edify themselves with, then why would Paul say it will cease when that which is complete has come?

1 Corinthians 13:
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Notice this also, for Paul only mentions three things that shall cease when that which is complete has come and it is " the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues and the gift of knowledge (not referring to knowledge in general) and he never says that miracles of healing but of course if tongues will cease then so would interpreation of tongues and which wouldn't need to be mentioned therefore.

Oh and by the way, did you happen to notice how Paul uses the idea of a child maturing into a full grown man when he speaks of the coming into a completeness in this passage?

Oh and here is something else, he says that tongues shall cease (future tense) and not that they have already at that time and then he goes into chapter 14 which is referring to the present tense while those gifts are still in operation within the church and therefore your argument that they would continue right until the the coming of Christ fails.

So if it is a heavenly language that angels use in heaven like you believe about it, then why would it cease or need to cease?

So has the complete come? Or are we still waiting for that day when the final blast will be sounded. When we are Heaven tongues will cease.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

So has the complete come? Or are we still waiting for that day when the final blast will be sounded. When we are Heaven tongues will cease.

The question was why would it cease if it is a heavenly gift for the purpose of edifying the one using it?

These are the problems with the doctrines of the Pentecostals and Charismatics on these issues.

However when Paul speaks of tongues being those of men and angels in 1 Corinthians 13:1, he is not speaking of angels using tongues in Heaven, for there would be no need being heaven is totally unity and with no need for other than one single language.

So when Paul calls the tongues those of men and angels, he is speaking of the fact that all languages that exist today were the result of God and his angels separating the peoples of the earth with tongues to break them up and separate them from their bad unity and as per Genesis 11.

However, on the day of Pentecost and now that Jesus came and died and rose again and the Spirit was giving for the purpose of presenting the truth of the gospel to all those nations, God gave the gift of tongues for that very purpose, to to remove that separation and unify as many as would accept the gospel message and repent and believe.

Here is the passage that I am speaking of from Genesis 11 below.

Genesis 11:
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world
. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Thus Shinar became literal Babylon because God caused the babbel of confusion by separating the people with those languages.

So what do you think Mystery Babylon refers to then? It refers to confusion of many false doctrines of the Apostate church and which includes with it the useless senseless non genuine jabber jawing of tongues that they practice, that is what it refers to

Paul simply understood that it was God who imparted to his angels the different language to separate the people with so that they would their evil unity would be broken up and confused.





So then, the purpose of God giving the languages in Genesis 11 was to bring confusion in order to break up the evil unity that they people had but the purpose of the gift of tongues on the day of Pentecost was to remove the confusion of the language barrior so that all men of every nation could now here the message of the gospel in their language.

So in 1 Corinthians 13-14, although the Corinthians were not using the gift for the purpose it was given being they hadn't gone into other nations yet to use it for the sake of the gospel message, he said what he did because he didn't want to forbid their use of the gift because it wasn't time for it to end.

Here is the bottom line however, for the tongues that are being used today by Pentecostals and Charismatics and many other groups as well, is not the genuine gift of Tongues but it is another of the many confusions of false doctrines and experiences coming for Mystery Babylon the apostate version of "Christianity".


Flat out, it is of the Devil and it is by no means from God's Holy Spirit, for God is not the author of confusion and senseless babbel but rather that belongs to the Devil and his disciples instead.

 

[Mikey1967]

The question was why would it cease if it is a heavenly gift for the purpose of edifying the one using it?

These are the problems with the doctrines of the Pentecostals and Charismatics on these issues.

However when Paul speaks of tongues being those of men and angels in 1 Corinthians 13:1, he is not speaking of angels using tongues in Heaven, for there would be no need being heaven is totally unity and with no need for other than one single language.

So when Paul calls the tongues those of men and angels, he is speaking of the fact that all languages that exist today were the result of God and his angels separating the peoples of the earth with tongues to break them up and separate them from their bad unity and as per Genesis 11.

However, on the day of Pentecost and now that Jesus came and died and rose again and the Spirit was giving for the purpose of presenting the truth of the gospel to all those nations, God gave the gift of tongues for that very purpose, to to remove that separation and unify as many as would accept the gospel message and repent and believe.

Here is the passage that I am speaking of from Genesis 11 below.

Genesis 11:
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world
. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Thus Shinar became literal Babylon because God caused the babbel of confusion by separating the people with those languages.

So what do you think Mystery Babylon refers to then? It refers to confusion of many false doctrines of the Apostate church and which includes with it the useless senseless non genuine jabber jawing of tongues that they practice, that is what it refers to

Paul simply understood that it was God who imparted to his angels the different language to separate the people with so that they would their evil unity would be broken up and confused.





So then, the purpose of God giving the languages in Genesis 11 was to bring confusion in order to break up the evil unity that they people had but the purpose of the gift of tongues on the day of Pentecost was to remove the confusion of the language barrior so that all men of every nation could now here the message of the gospel in their language.

So in 1 Corinthians 13-14, although the Corinthians were not using the gift for the purpose it was given being they hadn't gone into other nations yet to use it for the sake of the gospel message, he said what he did because he didn't want to forbid their use of the gift because it wasn't time for it to end.

Here is the bottom line however, for the tongues that are being used today by Pentecostals and Charismatics and many other groups as well, is not the genuine gift of Tongues but it is another of the many confusions of false doctrines and experiences coming for Mystery Babylon the apostate version of "Christianity".


Flat out, it is of the Devil and it is by no means from God's Holy Spirit, for God is not the author of confusion and senseless babbel but rather that belongs to the Devil and his disciples instead.

Simple. When Jesus come, the perfect or completion of us, there is no need for the gifts because we are with him. This was the entire purpose of Paul's discussion in Chapter 13. Those will cease when Jesus comes again, even knowledge. There will be no need. But, love will remain forever. That is it. Easy.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Simple. When Jesus come, the perfect or completion of us, there is no need for the gifts because we are with him. This was the entire purpose of Paul's discussion in Chapter 13. Those will cease when Jesus comes again, even knowledge. There will be no need. But, love will remain forever. That is it. Easy.

I thought your cult says it is a heavenly language, so if it is heavenly like your your cult claims and it does claim this because I used to belong to it myself and have heard it more times than I can count, but if it is a heavenly gift, then why would it need to pass away at all.

You do believe that angels in heaven speak in jibberish jabber jawing also don't you, isn't that what you take Paul's words to mean in 1 Corinthians 13:1 "though I speak with the tongues of men and angels"?

 

[Mikey1967]

I thought your cult says it is a heavenly language, so if it is heavenly like your your cult claims and it does claim this because I used to belong to it myself and have heard it more times than I can count, but if it is a heavenly gift, then why would it need to pass away at all.

You do believe that angels in heaven speak in jibberish jabber jawing also don't you, isn't that what you take Paul's words to mean in 1 Corinthians 13:1 "though I speak with the tongues of men and angels"?

First no pentecostal believes the perfect is a language. That is made up. Second, tongues doesn't mean it is a language spoken in heaven. 1 Cor 13:1 is analogous to create the compare/contrast in Paul's statement

 

[Yahweh will increase]

First no pentecostal believes the perfect is a language. That is made up. Second, tongues doesn't mean it is a language spoken in heaven. 1 Cor 13:1 is analogous to create the compare/contrast in Paul's statement

I haven't a clue what you are talking about, for I never said the perfect was a language and incidently the better translation would be "when that which is complete has come".

As far as your other argument goes, I am just revealing what I know that many Pentecostals and Charismatics call the tongues, for they call it a heavenly language and I just proved to you why Paul said it was the tongues of men and angel and it isn't because the angels speak in tongues in heaven.


Oh and by the way, God could have just given the tongues to the people of shinar himself and without the angels but I believe he imparted those tongues to the angel also because they would afterward be sent to communcate with the people who were separated and scattered by those languages.

That is why God wanted the angels involved in it, so when he said "lets go down and confound their languages, he was speaking to the angels and that is why Paul called the tongues, those of men and angels.

 

[tbeachhead]

You have often spoke of Tongues as being a heavenly language, and you base at least some of your idea on this from Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1.

If you didn't post, no one would even suspect your confusion. That much is clear....

Paul speaks of tongues in these terms, NOT in 1 Corinthians 13, but in 1 Corinthians 14:

1. The speaker is not speaking to men and
2. the speaker is speaking mysteries to God, and no one understands him, and
3. he edifies himself and
4. tongues interpreted have the same benefit as prophecy, and
5. he gives thanks very well indeed, and
6. Paul practiced the gift more than any of the Corinthians, and
7. even Paul's understanding was unfruitful...so that we know he spoke from his own experience, and
8. tongues are not to be forbidden.

Paul does not call it "a heavenly language." He does call it, "Praying with his spirit..." in contrast to "praying with his understanding."

"If I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love, what does it profit me?"

So here is the question.
If it is a heavenly language not used for communication and that the angels use in heaven to edify themselves with, then why would Paul say it will cease when that which is complete has come?

First...where does it say anywhere that angels "use" tongues to edify themselves? The languages I speak are a mystery to me. No one thinks that the language the Spirit inspires is a mystery to the Spirit. The gift is an exercise of faith, and therefore the gift edifies the believer in the same way you are built up in your own unbelief every time you post here.

Watch how tongues cease...

...

...

...

Did you see that? All language ceased for a time. This was to demonstrate clear doctrine. In the end, doctrine will be unnecessary, because we will be known even as we are known. Our communication, perfect in a love relationship, will necessarily transcend words.

You claim that that day has come, and prove your own impotence in the claim: You do not know as you are known, in fact, you know far less than you should.

1 Corinthians 13:
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Did you notice that languages do not remain?

It's really simple. And to claim that that day is today is to deny the mandate the church has to overcome. He has given us the weapons necessary unto obedience...the gifts among them...and tongues among the gifts.

Notice this also, for Paul only mentions three things that shall cease when that which is complete has come and it is " the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues and the gift of knowledge (not referring to knowledge in general) and he never says that miracles of healing but of course if tongues will cease then so would interpretation of tongues and which wouldn't need to be mentioned therefore.

You are incorrigible in your willingness to add to the Word. He doesn't say, "The gift...will cease." Prophecy will become entirely idle. There will no longer be a need. Languages will come to an end. (Different verb: pauso). Communication will be from deep to deep. No more words. Knowledge will become entirely idle...like prophecy. Same verb, It will no longer increase, because, as Paul just said, all will know as they are known. And there IS NO gift of knowledge...there will be no more Word of knowledge, because there will be no knowledge to impart.

Oh and by the way, did you happen to notice how Paul uses the idea of a child maturing into a full grown man when he speaks of the coming into a completeness in this passage?

Yep...Very sobering...and time to move on to chapter fourteen where he gives an example using tongues vs. prophecy as to how this love works to edify others in the gatherings that you have deliberately eschewed...rendering the entire passage moot for you according to your own private choice. Since you don't meet with anyone, you have nothing to give to anyone...and do not need any of the gifts.

I suspect that for you it's accurate to say that all the gifts have ceased.

Oh and here is something else, he says that tongues shall cease (future tense) and not that they have already at that time and then he goes into chapter 14 which is referring to the present tense while those gifts are still in operation within the church and therefore your argument that they would continue right until the the coming of Christ fails.

What on earth did you just say? He said "tongues would come to an end" in the future tense...proving that they have came to an end, and therefore we are not communicating using languages today?

Do you realize that the word that describes the gift, the gift of tongues, and the word that describes the tool for communication, tongues...is the same word in Greek? We should probably say "the gift of languages" just to remain clear. The French do that. "Tongues" and "Languages" is the same word langues. Maybe these threads should all be in French? When he says "tongues will come to an end..." he's saying ALL languages will come to an end. You have a way of twisting that goes way beyond even Johnny MacArthur.

So if it is a heavenly language that angels use in heaven like you believe about it, then why would it cease or need to cease?

Language will be put to an end.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

If you didn't post, no one would even suspect your confusion. That much is clear....

Paul speaks of tongues in these terms, NOT in 1 Corinthians 13, but in 1 Corinthians 14:

1. • The speaker is not speaking to men and
   • the speaker is speaking mysteries to God, and no one understands him, and
   • he edifies himself and
   • tongues interpreted have the same benefit as prophecy, and
   • he gives thanks very well indeed, and
   • Paul practiced the gift more than any of the Corinthians, and
   • even Paul's understanding was unfruitful...so that we know he spoke from his own experience, and
   • tongues are not to be forbidden.

Paul does not call it "a heavenly language." He does call it, "Praying with his spirit..." in contrast to "praying with his understanding."

You just don't get it do you, well of course you don't because you are attempting to understand words of the Spirit through your flesh and just like Paul revealed that you cannot in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16.

Paul is speaking to people who are using these gifts when there isn't anyone around who speaks the language and of course he isn't going to forbid them to use the tongues because at that time, they were still necessary, so he is giving them guide lines for using them instead of forbiding them to use them.

So when he says "he that speaks in tongues" edifies himself, he is speaking of what they are doing by using them when no message is being given by the Spirit through them unto anyone who knows the language.

First...where does it say anywhere that angels "use" tongues to edify themselves? The languages I speak are a mystery to me. No one thinks that the language the Spirit inspires is a mystery to the Spirit. The gift is an exercise of faith, and therefore the gift edifies the believer in the same way you are built up in your own unbelief every time you post here.

Watch how tongues cease...

...

...

...

Did you see that? All language ceased for a time. This was to demonstrate clear doctrine. In the end, doctrine will be unnecessary, because we will be known even as we are known. Our communication, perfect in a love relationship, will necessarily transcend words.

You claim that that day has come, and prove your own impotence in the claim: You do not know as you are known, in fact, you know far less than you should.
Did you notice that languages do not remain?

It's really simple. And to claim that that day is today is to deny the mandate the church has to overcome. He has given us the weapons necessary unto obedience...the gifts among them...and tongues among the gifts.

You are incorrigible in your willingness to add to the Word. He doesn't say, "The gift...will cease." Prophecy will become entirely idle. There will no longer be a need. Languages will come to an end. (Different verb: pauso). Communication will be from deep to deep. No more words. Knowledge will become entirely idle...like prophecy. Same verb, It will no longer increase, because, as Paul just said, all will know as they are known. And there IS NO gift of knowledge...there will be no more Word of knowledge, because there will be no knowledge to impart.
Yep...Very sobering...and time to move on to chapter fourteen where he gives an example using tongues vs. prophecy as to how this love works to edify others in the gatherings that you have deliberately eschewed...rendering the entire passage moot for you according to your own private choice. Since you don't meet with anyone, you have nothing to give to anyone...and do not need any of the gifts.

I suspect that for you it's accurate to say that all the gifts have ceased.

What on earth did you just say? He said "tongues would come to an end" in the future tense...proving that they have came to an end, and therefore we are not communicating using languages today?

Do you realize that the word that describes the gift, the gift of tongues, and the word that describes the tool for communication, tongues...is the same word in Greek? We should probably say "the gift of languages" just to remain clear. The French do that. "Tongues" and "Languages" is the same word langues. Maybe these threads should all be in French? When he says "tongues will come to an end..." he's saying ALL languages will come to an end. You have a way of twisting that goes way beyond even Johnny MacArthur.


Language will be put to an end.

The rest of this I will not bother with because in your ignorance my points went right over your head and which is usual for those led by their flesh like you are.

By the way, what do you think about your boy David Jeremiah telling everyone that the fallacious pre trib rapture will happen in 2024?

You ought to be embarrassed about that, just as you should be for the majority of trins supporting Donald Trump also, but that's right, you are supporting him yourself aren't you?

And you want me to think you know anything at all about matters of the Spirit in the scriptures, not in your life!

 

[shroom]

in your ignorance my points went right over your head and which is usual for those led by their flesh like you are.

Why are you such a jerk?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

I haven't a clue what you are talking about, for I never said the perfect was a language and incidently the better translation would be "when that which is complete has come".

As far as your other argument goes, I am just revealing what I know that many Pentecostals and Charismatics call the tongues, for they call it a heavenly language and I just proved to you why Paul said it was the tongues of men and angel and it isn't because the angels speak in tongues in heaven.


Oh and by the way, God could have just given the tongues to the people of shinar himself and without the angels but I believe he imparted those tongues to the angel also because they would afterward be sent to communcate with the people who were separated and scattered by those languages.

That is why God wanted the angels involved in it, so when he said "lets go down and confound their languages, he was speaking to the angels and that is why Paul called the tongues, those of men and angels.

Heavenly because only God understands it. Any idea what language will be spoken in heaven?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Heavenly because only God understands it. Any idea what language will be spoken in heaven?

That isn't what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:1 however, for he says that they are the tongues of men and angels and which means that they are the tongues that God and his angels originally gave unto men when he separated the nations with those tongues in Genesis 11.

What you people do not understand, is that because there was no sure way of those using the gift in knowing for certain that someone who spoke the language would have been visiting the church, Paul didn't want them not to use the gift but rather not to use it to edify themselves and that is why he told them that they must have an interpreter if they are going to use it,

So when he says, he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself because no one knows what he is saying except for God, he is speaking in general because they wouldn't have known whether or not someone was in the meeting who spoke that language or not and therefore Paul said that there must be an interpreter if you are going to use it.

Nevertheless the real genuine gift of tongues is not the meaningless jabber jawing jibberish like what your apostate churches are doing today with the counterfeit of the gift.

For the genuine gift was given so that those who received it would be able to communicate God's word to other nations when they would go among them and be witnesses unto them and this is why Paul called it "the tongues of men and angels and not unknown tongues like you falsely believe it is.

 

[tbeachhead]

Why are you such a jerk?

That happens. Relax. His eyes have been blinded as it is written, and this is the best he can do.

I never write for the cultist. His error, like Johnny Mac's and the deceived leaders' who, unlike our friend here, actually have a following, deserves an answer for the readers' sakes. We all need to learn how to respond to this, and the response is so clear it's shocking how many miss it.

 

[tbeachhead]

That isn't what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:1 however, for he says that they are the tongues of men and angels and which means that they are the tongues that God and his angels originally gave unto men when he separated the nations with those tongues in Genesis 11.

1 Corinthians 13:1 is a hypothetical that is irrelevant to the language spoken...but relevant to the love being expressed. Languages without an expression of love are meaningless...to speaker and hearer.

What you people do not understand, is that because there was no sure way of those using the gift in knowing for certain that someone who spoke the language would have been visiting the church, Paul didn't want them not to use the gift but rather not to use it to edify themselves and that is why he told them that they must have an interpreter if they are going to use it,

This is the weirdest, most convoluted invention I have witnessed ever, and I started reading the attacks on the gift when Johnny Mac's first edition, called then The Charismatics, and now, because insulting the intelligence of Charismatic believers has become vogue, Charismatic Chaos. It should be recognized as "Critics' Chaos" because disruption, unbelief and division are the sole aim of his book...oh...and his own profit from the sales.

So when he says, he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself because no one knows what he is saying except for God, he is speaking in general because they wouldn't have known whether or not someone was in the meeting who spoke that language or not and therefore Paul said that there must be an interpreter if you are going to use it.

This doesn't even make any sense. At all...

And you've never been in a meeting where different language groups all convened. When we prayed all around, everyone prayed with his group in his own native language. Speakers spoke up front, and as the interpreter translated to English or another language, every group had headphones where their own native language was broadcast and received.

That's how it works with many languages. Where the gift is evident, you have no idea if it's the gift or someone's native language...unless a single voice goes up and interrupts the meeting...at which point, the interpretation in a true Charismatic meeting is awaited and expected.

Nevertheless the real genuine gift of tongues is not the meaningless jabber jawing jibberish like what your apostate churches are doing today with the counterfeit of the gift.

You have no idea if what you're not understanding is meaningless...and you insult the speaker by calling it "gibberish" from your own self-enforced ignorance, even when you misspell the term. That's the whole point. It's good you do not attend the gatherings of believers. You are insulting. You do well to avoid meeting with believers until you learn humility and the meaning of repentance.

For the genuine gift was given so that those who received it would be able to communicate God's word to other nations when they would go among them and be witnesses unto them and this is why Paul called it "the tongues of men and angels and not unknown tongues like you falsely believe it is.

Nope...there was no one to communicate with in Corinth, and they were not destined to go where Paul was going, but the gift was imparted by the Spirit according to the Promise of Jesus, practiced by the believer and acknowledged by Paul and the congregation. You do not understand what you have decided to reject. Your eyes have been blinded to this.

 

[tbeachhead]

You just don't get it do you, well of course you don't because you are attempting to understand words of the Spirit through your flesh and just like Paul revealed that you cannot in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16.

I will let the Lord judge. I had friends try to clobber folks with the Word they themselves could never understand...by hitting them with their Thompson Chain. If I thought you knew how to read scripture, I'd pay more attention.

Paul is speaking to people who are using these gifts when there isn't anyone around who speaks the language and of course he isn't going to forbid them to use the tongues because at that time, they were still necessary, so he is giving them guide lines for using them instead of forbiding them to use them.

"They were still necessary? Why? Why in Corinth? Why did Paul pray when his mind was unfruitful and "...no one understood him?"

When did language become unnecessary? That's the claim. "Language" and "tongue" are synonymous.

So when he says "he that speaks in tongues" edifies himself, he is speaking of what they are doing by using them when no message is being given by the Spirit through them unto anyone who knows the language.

He's speaking of them edifying themselves by speaking a language when their minds were unfruitful.

The rest of this I will not bother with because in your ignorance my points went right over your head and which is usual for those led by their flesh like you are.

Yeah...and you don't want to reveal how very little you understand, and how difficult it is for you to come to grips with anything outside your own anti-biblical cult. It doesn't matter....there is no evidence that you've understood any response to your error, from me or anyone else. You do not answer showing a grasp of the counter argument.

This post proves the case that you have no clue what I had just said. You just responded as usual...

By the way, what do you think about your boy David Jeremiah telling everyone that the fallacious pre trib rapture will happen in 2024?

I don't...should I? Error is error, and everyone who teaches is held to a higher standard...everyone.

Even folks who come here to prove their own ignorance, thinking it's their call to criticize the historic church and correct the "error" they invented that began in their invention the day Jesus rose from the dead.

You ought to be embarrassed about that, just as you should be for the majority of trins supporting Donald Trump also, but that's right, you are supporting him yourself aren't you?

I'm not even embarrassed by you...or worried since you have no followers. Those who teach will be called into account first, and will be responsible for those who fell from their teaching.

That's sobering for me...as a teacher. And for you...if you think you're teaching anyone anything.

And you want me to think you know anything at all about matters of the Spirit in the scriptures, not in your life!

Doesn't really matter what you think, does it? Your thoughts have minimal impact. I want to make it clear that your error has biblical answers...on this forum, where some come to examine pentecostal doctrine.

They deserve to hear from a pentecostal...especially when you come here to post. You can believe whatever floats your boat...it makes this board all the more entertaining.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I will let the Lord judge. I had friends try to clobber folks with the Word they themselves could never understand...by hitting them with their Thompson Chain. If I thought you knew how to read scripture, I'd pay more attention.

And you can be sure that he will judge also but you need to read 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 below.

1 Corinthians 2:
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we (who are truly led of the Spirt) have the mind of Christ.


Notice in the above, Paul very clearly says that those who are led of the flesh cannot judge those who are led of the Spirit but that the one led by the Spirit makes judgements about all things.

Then Paul reveals that the reason why those of the flesh cannot judge those of the Spirit, is because it would be like them instructing God being the one led by the Spirit has the mind of Christ

"They were still necessary? Why? Why in Corinth? Why did Paul pray when his mind was unfruitful and "...no one understood him?"

For the simple reason that there may have been someone in the meeting that spoke the language that the Spirit was givin Paul the utterence to pray in, for he wouldn't have known this, just like they didn't either on the day of Pentecost and that is why Paul didn't forbid the Corinthians from using it even though they were using it at a whim.

Furthermore, the person speaking the language doesn't know the language unless he also has the gift of interpretation as well.

When did language become unnecessary? That's the claim. "Language" and "tongue" are synonymous.

That is right and therefore Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1 would be better translated as "though I speak in the languages of men and angels" and which brings us right back to the fact that those languages, were not entirely unknown except by those who are not of the nations that speaks the languages.

This is why they should never be used without an interpretion, for they were never meant for self edification like you and your cult falsely believe about them and Paul was never saying that their edifying themselves in their use of them was good either, for you are reading that into his words when it doesn't exist.

He's speaking of them edifying themselves by speaking a language when their minds were unfruitful.

Only because they were selfish and carnally minded and which is why Paul wrote the letter to begin with and they pale in comparison to the divisions in your cult and Paul defined this as proof that they were carnal and not spiritual also in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Yeah...and you don't want to reveal how very little you understand, and how difficult it is for you to come to grips with anything outside your own anti-biblical cult. It doesn't matter....there is no evidence that you've understood any response to your error, from me or anyone else. You do not answer showing a grasp of the counter argument.

The pot calling the kettle black and which is the same song sung by all who are equally deceive to false doctrines also, it is always the other guy who is off base no matter how he might agree with the context of the passages being discussed also and like what I revealed from the context of Isaiah 45 and also Philippians 2:5-11.

I have noticed also how you shy away from my argument for Philippians 2:9-11, for your little foolish argument from Isaiah 45 where God said "by myself I have sworn that every knee shall bow unto me and every tongue shall swear", doesn't answer what Paul is saying Jesus would be rewarded with in verses 9-11.

For as I say before and will again, if Jesus was always Yahweh God and never ceased to be Yahweh God and you do believe he was, then what Paul said in verses 9-11 would make about as much sense as installing a screed door on a submarine and that is your predicament that you have absolutely no sensible answer for.

This post proves the case that you have no clue what I had just said. You just responded as usual...

To the contrary what it proves is that you are not telling me something new that I never heard before although in your arrogance you think you are, so I dont need to read over and over again what I already know about your doctrine on this, for I even use to teach it in my trin church that I belonged to for better than 28 years.

I don't...should I? Error is error, and everyone who teaches is held to a higher standard...everyone.

Indeed you should and you should be more ashamed by him being he belongs to your cult, but I knew him to be quite deceived before he even said this about the rapture and by the way, I can prove 1 Corinthians 15 to anyone who really wants to know the truth and is open to the truth, that there isn't going to be any pre trib rapture.

For In that very chapter which is all about the resurrection and rapture, Paul not only tells us when the rapture will take place in regards to the Tribulation but also why those believer who are still alive and waiting for Christ's return will not have to taste of physical death.

Even folks who come here to prove their own ignorance, thinking it's their call to criticize the historic church and correct the "error" they invented that began in their invention the day Jesus rose from the dead.

Concerning the above in bold orange, isn't that what you are doing here, proving your own ignorance?

Concerning what you believe to be the orthodox Historical church there is plenty to be critical of and it is even writen right in the history books also and is is just another of many things that prove that it is not the true church of Christ and God.

I'm not even embarrassed by you...or worried since you have no followers. Those who teach will be called into account first, and will be responsible for those who fell from their teaching.

And it is important for you to have followeres isn't it? For you are weak that way, for if you had to go it alone like Elijah or Jeremiah did, you would never make it.

Just as Jesus said to the apostate Jews also, "how can you believe, you who receive honor one from another and don't seek the honor that comes from God alone?".

That's sobering for me...as a teacher. And for you...if you think you're teaching anyone anything.

I don't worry about thinking to much, but instead I allow myself to be led by the mind of the Spirit of God that was also in Christ Jesus and who is my head.

Doesn't really matter what you think, does it? Your thoughts have minimal impact. I want to make it clear that your error has biblical answers...on this forum, where some come to examine pentecostal doctrine.

That's right for we have come to that darkness where no one will listen to the truth anylonger because of all of the confusing mess your apostate harlot renegade church has created on this earth and just as Jesus spoke of below.

"I must work while it is yet day, for the night (great apostasy and confusion) is coming in which no man can work"

They deserve to hear from a pentecostal...especially when you come here to post. You can believe whatever floats your boat...it makes this board all the more entertaining.

Of course and that is because the lies and delusions your cult churches teach are much more accepted than the the real truth and this has always been the case also, however it has become worse than ever and is almost come to a stalemate now if it hasn't already and which would mean that the judgment and the end is that much closer also.

 

[RiJoRi]

Heavenly because only God understands it. Any idea what language will be spoken in heaven?

At the Italian-Pentecostal church I attended, it was rumored that the heavenly language would be Italian! (Not seriously, of course!)

 

[tbeachhead]

At the Italian-Pentecostal church I attended, it was rumored that the heavenly language would be Italian! (Not seriously, of course!)

Yeah...the French would have said otherwise, and often have. Some say it'll be English of pragmatic necessity, because English speakers are hopelessly monolingual.

 

[RiJoRi]

Yeah...the French would have said otherwise, and often have. Some say it'll be English of pragmatic necessity, because English speakers are hopelessly monolingual.

Yo! I kin tawk Noo Yawk, Booklynese, Bahston, and Noath Carlinan! Tengo un poco de Español, and I can ask for food in German (thanks, Grandma!). — As well as "yes", "no", and "thank you" in several other languages! Da?

Years back, I read a novel that took place in India in the 1840s, and a British character believed that "English can be understood by anyone, if it is pronounced slowly and clearly!"

Kidding aside, I suspect that the "heavenly language" will be unlike any language known today, so we can talk about what "eyes have not seen, nor ears heard" here on Earth.

 

[tbeachhead]

Part 1 of 2: This is such a cute response. You really do believe you've got something no one else has had since John put his head on Jesus' breast at the last supper, don't you?

And you can be sure that he will judge

I'm quite sure. And look how we can agree on one detail...Isn't that encouraging?

...also but you need to read 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 below.
1 Corinthians 2:
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

There is no doubt that your words are not taught with human wisdom...or any wisdom for that matter. When you decided to rebel, your wisdom went the way of obedience to Christ...our the window with your own credibility.

You can be sure, when you do what you do here to Paul's writing, you do not have the same mind of the Spirit that he had.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

This explains the difficulty you have found with your eyes being blinded as they so clearly have.

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things but such a person is not subject to human judgments for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”

Ask yourself this: If this is true, and Paul is correct...why have you judged the entire church as you have, and condemned us all...you being the only one who understands? Have you ever wondered?

I haven't. Because Paul makes it clear what happened to you.

But we (who are truly led of the Spirt) have the mind of Christ.

Are you telling me YOU have the mind of Christ? Have you thought of telling Him that? Do you suggest that Christ has been condemning His church that he bought for the last two thousand years?

Notice in the above, Paul very clearly says that those who are led of the flesh cannot judge those who are led of the Spirit but that the one led by the Spirit makes judgements about all things.

Yeah...but you make judgments about all things...without the Spirit, don't you? I don't think this verse was meant to give you license to judge all but yourself...

See...later on, in 2 Corinthians 5, Paul tells his friends he has learned no longer to look at any man after the flesh. As one died for all, therefore all died. That's Paul's judgment. Do you see the contrast with the condemnation you've ascribed to yourself? Your judgment is more akin to the judgment Jesus warned us of: "Judge not, lest you be likewise judged...with the same measure you give it shall be given."

Understand: That's why I will let the Lord judge between you and me. He didn't give me the license you've taken upon yourself.

Then Paul reveals that the reason why those of the flesh cannot judge those of the Spirit, is because it would be like them instructing God being the one led by the Spirit has the mind of Christ.

Your sentence doesn't make sense: Are you claiming that you have Christ's mind?

Verse 15 tells me the one with the Spirit is not subject to judgment...because it is the Lord's place to judge, not mine. The Holy Spirit was sent to convict...not me. I am sent as an ambassador crying out, "Be reconciled to your brothers..." Mine is a different task.

For the simple reason that there may have been someone in the meeting that spoke the language that the Spirit was giving Paul the utterance to pray in, for he wouldn't have known this, just like they didn't either on the day of Pentecost and that is why Paul didn't forbid the Corinthians from using it even though they were using it at a whim.

He was in Corinth, surrounded by Corinthians. "FOR NO ONE UNDERSTANDS HIM...he's speaking mysteries" Where did you get that someone did understand him?

You can be as cute as your ego requires, to claim I'm in the flesh....you still need to read what Paul wrote.

Furthermore, the person speaking the language doesn't know the language unless he also has the gift of interpretation as well.

That's one of the few correct statements you've made. You are correct. That is why tongues in an assembly is ill-advised without knowing that someone is ready to interpret.

In the heyday of the Charismatic movement, an message in tongues given was an act of faith...because the interpreter could be anyone in the room, and it often was quite random early on. (Later on, invariably, the pastor would have the sole message in tongues and his wife would give the interpretation.) These were the days where the Lord demonstrated for me the working of the principles of 1 Corinthians 14. And the day came when the message in tongues was given, and I knew what was being said. And I refused to give the interpretation...I froze in fear and remained silent despite the pastor's encouragement to take the step. At the end of the service, I stood up and apologized to the congregation. The very next service it happened again, but this time I spoke the interpretation I had been given. I felt so inadequate I wanted to crawl out under the pews and disappear. Later, driving home with a friend, my friend said, "You know the interpretation you got? I got it too, word for word. I asked if the Lord wanted me to give it...and He said, 'No. This is for Peter.'" I never questioned the gift after that.

That is right and therefore Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1 would be better translated as "though I speak in the languages of men and angels" and which brings us right back to the fact that those languages, were not entirely unknown except by those who are not of the nations that speaks the languages.

No it doesn't. It brings us back directly to what Paul is talking about: love not language. It doesn't matter what language you're speaking, without love your message is lost.

That should sober you a bit, because even when you post entirely in English you are missing Paul's point entirely.

This is why they should never be used without an interpretation, for they were never meant for self edification like you and your cult falsely believe about them and Paul was never saying that their edifying themselves in their use of them was good either, for you are reading that into his words when it doesn't exist.

False claim again.

They should never be used without an interpretation when you are surrounded by folks who need edification, exhortation and comfort. When there are folks to love on, you speak their language.

Paul still spoke in tongues more than any Corinthian, and his mind was still unfruitful...But he edified himself away from the crowd and not in the crowd. How would Paul know that "the one who speaks in a language edifies himself," if he had not himself experienced the edification that comes from the practice of the gift. Remember we're talking about a GIFT of the Spirit, and not languages in general. He's pretty thoughtful in His gifts...don't you think? He knew what He was giving, and, unlike you, He knew the gift's impact and value.

Only because they were selfish and carnally minded and which is why Paul wrote the letter to begin with and they pale in comparison to the divisions in your cult and Paul defined this as proof that they were carnal and not spiritual also in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Again, learn to read. Chapter 3 is not chapter 12...where he's instructing them in the spiritual gifts...because he did. not want them to be ignorant. They weren't carnally minded with the gifts...merely uninstructed. If you could read chapters 12-14 as Paul's instruction to prevent ignorance, your understanding of the context here would improve dramatically.

The pot calling the kettle black and which is the same song sung by all who are equally deceive to false doctrines also, it is always the other guy who is off base no matter how he might agree with the context of the passages being discussed also and like what I revealed from the context of Isaiah 45 and also Philippians 2:5-11.

I have noticed also how you shy away from my argument for Philippians 2:9-11, for your little foolish argument from Isaiah 45 where God said "by myself I have sworn that every knee shall bow unto me and every tongue shall swear", doesn't answer what Paul is saying Jesus would be rewarded with in verses 9-11.

For as I say before and will again, if Jesus was always Yahweh God and never ceased to be Yahweh God and you do believe he was, then what Paul said in verses 9-11 would make about as much sense as installing a screed door on a submarine and that is your predicament that you have absolutely no sensible answer for.

You're grasping for straws to breathe through here. I answered you adequately. If you don't think so, bring Philippians up again in another thread. This is a bunny trail in a very long post...As I said above, "This post proves the case that you have no clue what I had just said. You just responded as usual..." and you do not grasp the absurdity of a church of one...eschewing the error of all but himself. You will never be the pure and spotless bride He seeks, because you do not love the members.