How Anti-mormonism Turns Faith Into Used Chewing Gum

[Aaron32]

Often on the board we hear Christians tell mormons worship "a different Jesus". We also see Mormons being accused of believing polytheism and told that false gods does don't exist. On the contrary, we are told only One God exists. Assuming a mormon can be convinced that they indeed have been worshipping a false god, the question naturally pops up in their mind such as:

• "Who have I been praying to?"
• "In all the times I've thought I've received answers to prayers, was it just a placebo?"

And this is a question I'd invite Christians to ponder: When a non-believer prays, does God hear it?
And if not, what degree of understanding, especially in the realm of Christianity, must a person be accordance with the bible on God's corporeal nature and origin in order to be heard by the ACTUAL God that exists?

Moreover, if one believes that a Mormon was praying to an idol that doesn't exist, how could a mormon have any faith in prayer at all?
What evidence should they look for that their prayer is being heard? Obviously, if they've paid attention to you, they can't listen to their hearts, because their hearts have deceived them, nor can they trust spiritual witnesses because Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light? No one could trust or receive same witness that Peter received: "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." If we can identify the concepts of how the mind works and prove them by looking at a behavioral experiment making an atheist believe in God - then by what reasoning can we avoid thinking that all religion is just a sham?

So then, eliminating all the super-natural, religious truth becomes a matter of dogma. But who's dogma should they trust? If one was indoctrinated with mormon dogma before, and that's all a lie, then how can they trust that Protestantism, Catholicism, Buddism, JW-ism, scientology, etc. etc. etc? It's easy to view all major religions as indoctination and people just search for the evidence they WANT to believe.

They are told: "Look to the Bible." But so often, when we look at the text alone, Mormons see beliefs stated by Christians that aren't actually in the Bible such as the terms such as "Trinity" or "monotheism" vs "polytheism" or "essence" vs "persons". But to question the validity of these terms mormons are told that they are questioning "the Bible." The point being: intellectual discussion becomes equally as subjective as spiritual discussion.

So you're probably wondering, what does chewed gum have to do with this?
Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped and raped multiple times, was previously taught by a teacher in her Church that her self-worth was tied to sexual purity, with the analogy that she was like a stick of chewing gum, and no longer being abstinent was equivalent is like being a chewed piece of gum - which nobody wants. She said: "I thought, 'Oh my gosh. I'm that chewed up piece of gum,'" Smart told the audience of gathered listeners. "Nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away. And that's how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value. Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued, if your life still has no value?"

Well, to defile another's faith: their God, their scriptures, their Church leaders, their spiritual witnesses, the answers to prayers they believed they received, is basically making their faith the gum they've been chewing their whole lives (especially if they're in a mutli-generational family of mormons). Regardless of how rediculous it seems to you, Once it's pulled out, one has to question, is there a point in trying to find faith again? Not only have you discredited their religion, but their sovereign ability to trust themselves - especially when Mormons themselves are made the problem when they your beliefs aren't accepted (i.e. Bonnie's signature). Free-thinking post-mormons, who listened to you and took your advice, look and see the cultish characteristics of every religion, and if they don't have the emotional need to be sucked into another group, are forced to look at all belief systems, not just Christianity. Admittedly, from personal experience, it's extremely difficult not to consider atheism or agnosticism as a viable possibility.

Many Mormons who have left the church, who are generally agnostic and wrapped up in the social justice side of things in forums on Facebook, aren't interested in coming on CARM to debate Christianity. Why? On what basis can they trust anything? They see you as the one blinded by religious beliefs, not them - and your anti-mormon tactics gave them every reason to do so.

Conclusion: While I agree cultural Mormons have some issues, and some cultural Mormons have no concept of what Sola Scriptura Christians believe, proselyting anti-Mormonism isn't the solution, but rather, preach the truth you know to be true. Get to know your fellow mormons. Just be a friend. If their having difficulty with life challenges, share the gospel with them - that salvation comes by faith through Jesus Christ. To my knowledge, Jews weren't forced to end the practice of circumcision to become Christians, it just decided that it wasn't a requirement for Gentiles.

Paul...did not object to the observance of the Mosaic Law, as long as it did not interfere with the liberty of the Gentiles, but he conformed to its prescriptions when occasion required (1 Corinthians 9:20). Thus he shortly after circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:1–16:3), and he was in the very act of observing the Mosaic ritual when he was arrested at Jerusalem (Acts 21:26). (Source: Wikipedia citing Bechtel, Florentine. Herbermann, Charles, ed. (1913). "Judaizers" . Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.)

Romans 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Matt 10:16...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

 

[organgrinder]

Often on the board we hear Christians tell mormons worship "a different Jesus". We also see Mormons being accused of believing polytheism and told that false gods does don't exist. On the contrary, we are told only One God exists. Assuming a mormon can be convinced that they indeed have been worshipping a false god, the question naturally pops up in their mind such as:

• "Who have I been praying to?"
• "In all the times I've thought I've received answers to prayers, was it just a placebo?"

And this is a question I'd invite Christians to ponder: When a non-believer prays, does God hear it?
And if not, what degree of understanding, especially in the realm of Christianity, must a person be accordance with the bible on God's corporeal nature and origin in order to be heard by the ACTUAL God that exists?

Moreover, if one believes that a Mormon was praying to an idol that doesn't exist, how could a mormon have any faith in prayer at all?
What evidence should they look for that their prayer is being heard? Obviously, if they've paid attention to you, they can't listen to their hearts, because their hearts have deceived them, nor can they trust spiritual witnesses because Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light? No one could trust or receive same witness that Peter received: "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." If we can identify the concepts of how the mind works and prove them by looking at a behavioral experiment making an atheist believe in God - then by what reasoning can we avoid thinking that all religion is just a sham?

So then, eliminating all the super-natural, religious truth becomes a matter of dogma. But who's dogma should they trust? If one was indoctrinated with mormon dogma before, and that's all a lie, then how can they trust that Protestantism, Catholicism, Buddism, JW-ism, scientology, etc. etc. etc? It's easy to view all major religions as indoctination and people just search for the evidence they WANT to believe.

They are told: "Look to the Bible." But so often, when we look at the text alone, Mormons see beliefs stated by Christians that aren't actually in the Bible such as the terms such as "Trinity" or "monotheism" vs "polytheism" or "essence" vs "persons". But to question the validity of these terms mormons are told that they are questioning "the Bible." The point being: intellectual discussion becomes equally as subjective as spiritual discussion.

So you're probably wondering, what does chewed gum have to do with this?
Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped and raped multiple times, was previously taught by a teacher in her Church that her self-worth was tied to sexual purity, with the analogy that she was like a stick of chewing gum, and no longer being abstinent was equivalent is like being a chewed piece of gum - which nobody wants. She said: "I thought, 'Oh my gosh. I'm that chewed up piece of gum,'" Smart told the audience of gathered listeners. "Nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away. And that's how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value. Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued, if your life still has no value?"

Well, to defile another's faith: their God, their scriptures, their Church leaders, their spiritual witnesses, the answers to prayers they believed they received, is basically making their faith the gum they've been chewing their whole lives (especially if they're in a mutli-generational family of mormons). Regardless of how rediculous it seems to you, Once it's pulled out, one has to question, is there a point in trying to find faith again? Not only have you discredited their religion, but their sovereign ability to trust themselves - especially when Mormons themselves are made the problem when they your beliefs aren't accepted (i.e. Bonnie's signature). Free-thinking post-mormons, who listened to you and took your advice, look and see the cultish characteristics of every religion, and if they don't have the emotional need to be sucked into another group, are forced to look at all belief systems, not just Christianity. Admittedly, from personal experience, it's extremely difficult not to consider atheism or agnosticism as a viable possibility.

Many Mormons who have left the church, who are generally agnostic and wrapped up in the social justice side of things in forums on Facebook, aren't interested in coming on CARM to debate Christianity. Why? On what basis can they trust anything? They see you as the one blinded by religious beliefs, not them - and your anti-mormon tactics gave them every reason to do so.

Conclusion: While I agree cultural Mormons have some issues, and some cultural Mormons have no concept of what Sola Scriptura Christians believe, proselyting anti-Mormonism isn't the solution, but rather, preach the truth you know to be true. Get to know your fellow mormons. Just be a friend. If their having difficulty with life challenges, share the gospel with them - that salvation comes by faith through Jesus Christ. To my knowledge, Jews weren't forced to end the practice of circumcision to become Christians, it just decided that it wasn't a requirement for Gentiles.

Paul...did not object to the observance of the Mosaic Law, as long as it did not interfere with the liberty of the Gentiles, but he conformed to its prescriptions when occasion required (1 Corinthians 9:20). Thus he shortly after circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:1–16:3), and he was in the very act of observing the Mosaic ritual when he was arrested at Jerusalem (Acts 21:26). (Source: Wikipedia citing Bechtel, Florentine. Herbermann, Charles, ed. (1913). "Judaizers" . Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.)

Romans 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Matt 10:16...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Interesting post, Aaron. I bolded a sentence. While the Elizabeth Smart analogy is interesting, It does bring some interesting points to the forefront. The stories I have read or heard from ex-Mormons left for varying reasons. The CES letter obviously opened a lot of eyes and folks began questioning and using the internet to discover for themselves what the LDS church taught was correct or not.
Some of those folks felt betrayed for various reasons. They then found what I bolded above : "is there a point in trying to find faith again?" A bunch said no. Some said "No".

Why?

I personally believe those folks had real faith crises. As a result, when they dumped the LDS faith they still hung onto the one thing that was hammered into them for the git go-- all churches are false. When Joseph Smith said only the new LDS church was true and folks found out otherwise, they still believed Smith's lie and became atheists. There was no point in believing in God, a god, or anything supernatural. People need to trust the written word of God in the Bible, not themselves. God's word will speak truth. we may not understand it all, but God will speak to us in His word, by the Holy Spirit and through born-again believers.

I might add that the Elizabeth Smart story could be applicable to any number of denominations, Roman Catholic in particular. You know my story. I was born and bred and reared in the Catholic faith. Jesus was taught, but I was never taught how to be born again. I was told I needed to be good and do my best, go to Mass, yada yada yada. I and most of the Catholics I was around were cultural Christians. we did the "stuff" but the stuff was meaningless without a personal relationship with Jesus. I was never ever about a personal relationship with Jesus in either Catholic elementary or high schools and certainly not at Sunday Mass.

In college, when I was challenged to read the written word of God, I learned how He could change me, a despicable sinner, into a loved blood-bought child of God who God Himself wanted to clean up so my walk could somehow match my perfect position of righteousness in His sight by faith in Jesus. It was a difficult road for me to admit I had been hoodwinked all those years. It was the word of God that made the difference. I trusted the Bible even as a cultural Catholic. I just didn't read it. I trusted those good nuns, brothers, priests, bishops, cardinals and Popes knew what they were teaching us. Majo system shock when I found out it wasn't all true. As a Catholic I believe the RCC was the only "true" church established by God. Mormons are no different.

Elizabeth was taught her personal worth was wrapped up in her purity. When that was taken from her, she was garbage. God doesn't see us that way. We have no worth in and of ourselves. It is only in Jesus and only with Jesus do we find life, worth and fullness of joy, regardless of the circumstances.

I pray all of us during this lead up to Resurrection Sunday find that same relationship, joy and worth only He can give.

 

[Magdalena]

Often on the board we hear Christians tell mormons worship "a different Jesus". We also see Mormons being accused of believing polytheism and told that false gods does don't exist. On the contrary, we are told only One God exists. Assuming a mormon can be convinced that they indeed have been worshipping a false god, the question naturally pops up in their mind such as:

• "Who have I been praying to?"
• "In all the times I've thought I've received answers to prayers, was it just a placebo?"

And this is a question I'd invite Christians to ponder: When a non-believer prays, does God hear it?
And if not, what degree of understanding, especially in the realm of Christianity, must a person be accordance with the bible on God's corporeal nature and origin in order to be heard by the ACTUAL God that exists?

Moreover, if one believes that a Mormon was praying to an idol that doesn't exist, how could a mormon have any faith in prayer at all?
What evidence should they look for that their prayer is being heard? Obviously, if they've paid attention to you, they can't listen to their hearts, because their hearts have deceived them, nor can they trust spiritual witnesses because Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light? No one could trust or receive same witness that Peter received: "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." If we can identify the concepts of how the mind works and prove them by looking at a behavioral experiment making an atheist believe in God - then by what reasoning can we avoid thinking that all religion is just a sham?

So then, eliminating all the super-natural, religious truth becomes a matter of dogma. But who's dogma should they trust? If one was indoctrinated with mormon dogma before, and that's all a lie, then how can they trust that Protestantism, Catholicism, Buddism, JW-ism, scientology, etc. etc. etc? It's easy to view all major religions as indoctination and people just search for the evidence they WANT to believe.

They are told: "Look to the Bible." But so often, when we look at the text alone, Mormons see beliefs stated by Christians that aren't actually in the Bible such as the terms such as "Trinity" or "monotheism" vs "polytheism" or "essence" vs "persons". But to question the validity of these terms mormons are told that they are questioning "the Bible." The point being: intellectual discussion becomes equally as subjective as spiritual discussion.

So you're probably wondering, what does chewed gum have to do with this?
Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped and raped multiple times, was previously taught by a teacher in her Church that her self-worth was tied to sexual purity, with the analogy that she was like a stick of chewing gum, and no longer being abstinent was equivalent is like being a chewed piece of gum - which nobody wants. She said: "I thought, 'Oh my gosh. I'm that chewed up piece of gum,'" Smart told the audience of gathered listeners. "Nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away. And that's how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value. Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued, if your life still has no value?"

Well, to defile another's faith: their God, their scriptures, their Church leaders, their spiritual witnesses, the answers to prayers they believed they received, is basically making their faith the gum they've been chewing their whole lives (especially if they're in a mutli-generational family of mormons). Regardless of how rediculous it seems to you, Once it's pulled out, one has to question, is there a point in trying to find faith again? Not only have you discredited their religion, but their sovereign ability to trust themselves - especially when Mormons themselves are made the problem when they your beliefs aren't accepted (i.e. Bonnie's signature). Free-thinking post-mormons, who listened to you and took your advice, look and see the cultish characteristics of every religion, and if they don't have the emotional need to be sucked into another group, are forced to look at all belief systems, not just Christianity. Admittedly, from personal experience, it's extremely difficult not to consider atheism or agnosticism as a viable possibility.

Many Mormons who have left the church, who are generally agnostic and wrapped up in the social justice side of things in forums on Facebook, aren't interested in coming on CARM to debate Christianity. Why? On what basis can they trust anything? They see you as the one blinded by religious beliefs, not them - and your anti-mormon tactics gave them every reason to do so.

Conclusion: While I agree cultural Mormons have some issues, and some cultural Mormons have no concept of what Sola Scriptura Christians believe, proselyting anti-Mormonism isn't the solution, but rather, preach the truth you know to be true. Get to know your fellow mormons. Just be a friend. If their having difficulty with life challenges, share the gospel with them - that salvation comes by faith through Jesus Christ. To my knowledge, Jews weren't forced to end the practice of circumcision to become Christians, it just decided that it wasn't a requirement for Gentiles.

Paul...did not object to the observance of the Mosaic Law, as long as it did not interfere with the liberty of the Gentiles, but he conformed to its prescriptions when occasion required (1 Corinthians 9:20). Thus he shortly after circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:1–16:3), and he was in the very act of observing the Mosaic ritual when he was arrested at Jerusalem (Acts 21:26). (Source: Wikipedia citing Bechtel, Florentine. Herbermann, Charles, ed. (1913). "Judaizers" . Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.)

Romans 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Matt 10:16...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Aaron, we’ve discussed these questions before here. But you ignored them or got angry.

People leave mormonism for many reasons. Most go thru a faith crisis when they do, asking those same questions… how can I believe anything anymore including myself and God. What was I feeling if it didn’t come from God.

I believe God answers prayers for mormons and non-mormons. But we sometimes mistake the answers. And that can be for many reasons as well. I can read the New Testament and get a strong witness from Spirit about Christ. I can read about Him in other literature and get a witness too. But that witness is not about the validity or holiness of any other publication. The witness is about Christ.

The Book of Mormon includes the story of Christ’s resurrection. You can read that and feel it’s true. That’s a testimony of Christ that often gets confused with a witness that the book is true.

The thing is, along with asking if the Book of Mormon is true, you need to study how it stacks up with God’s word in the Bible. And how it came to be. And who produced it. And what gospel does it bring with it? Is it a different one than Christ taught? And was it brought by a false prophet? What are the fruits it produced… as in mormonism.

The wolves in sheep’s clothing Christ warned us about are good at cloaking evil in the appearance of good and light. They’ll tell you it’s all about Christ, but there is darkness under the surface.

A lot of us wanted to believe the promises of mormonism. So we took the witnesses about Christ and let ourselves be convinced that the rest was true too. Then when we found out it isn’t, we felt betrayed. And maybe abandoned.

After having experienced it, what I can say is that the witness of Christ is the center of all truth. He is where our faith should be placed. Only Him. He is the only source of real safety and peace, and eternal life. And His words to us in scripture (Bible) should be what we use as a guide for everything else. That’s where you can place your trust.

I always go back to this verse… “Be still, and know that I am God.” Be still, and trust Him. Let everything else go.

 

[Aaron32]

Interesting post, Aaron. I bolded a sentence. While the Elizabeth Smart analogy is interesting, It does bring some interesting points to the forefront. The stories I have read or heard from ex-Mormons left for varying reasons. The CES letter obviously opened a lot of eyes and folks began questioning and using the internet to discover for themselves what the LDS church taught was correct or not.

The CES letter didn't open a lot of eyes, it blinded them IMO.

Some of those folks felt betrayed for various reasons.

True.

They then found what I bolded above : "is there a point in trying to find faith again?" A bunch said no. Some said "No".

Why?

I personally believe those folks had real faith crises.

They absolutely did.

As a result, when they dumped the LDS faith they still hung onto the one thing that was hammered into them for the git go-- all churches are false.

Right. Whereas, the Catholics teaches other churches are true?

When Joseph Smith said only the new LDS church was true and folks found out otherwise,

Interesting. I didn't know Protestants were so liberal in their beliefs, accepting other religious texts as divine, and other Gods as plausible. If Joseph Smith is guilty, Christian are equally guilty. Just change the the context from "church" to "religion".
The joke about the man saving on the other man standing on the bridge is funny because of its kernel of truth.

they still believed Smith's lie and became atheists.

Where as you believe the Protestants' "lie" that there's "only on path to God"?
I ask this sarcastically, by abstractifying and reframe your reasoning against your own beliefs to help you realize how your judgement is seen in a person with different perspective.

There was no point in believing in God, a god, or anything supernatural.

Exactly! This is why anti-mormonism is anti Mormon, not pro-christian. On this board, Mormons are to defend their religion only. Any attempt to talk about the general concept being addressed is "off topic" and moderated. I'll be surprised if this entire thread isn't moderated out of existence by the end of the week.
Again, Christians don't tell us "you should believe in a God it doesn't matter if you're Christian or not." No, were condemned because we don't believe in your God, and moreover "no other God exists". Why, according to you, if we don't agree with you, should we believe in a God? Whatever that answer is. Go post it on a Christian board within these forums and defend it, and see what other Christians have to say about it.

People need to trust the written word of God in the Bible, not themselves.

This portion of the convo should probably be carried over to the Atheism board, but based on what, should people agree with this statement?
If people can't trust themselves, why should they trust you? What evidence should they look for? How can they know the Bible was written by God? If you're a real Christian, you'll walk a mile twain with me on this one, but I promise I won't abandon you in despair as anti-mormons do.

God's word will speak truth.

That's what Mormons have been told. That's what the Book of Mormon teaches. There's a hymn says "the iron rod (referring to Nephi's vision of the tree of life) is the Word of God, 'twill safely guide us through."

we may not understand it all, but God will speak to us in His word, by the Holy Spirit and through born-again believers.

Strange, Mormons say that too. The retort is, Satan presents himself as an angel of light, and you can't trust your heart, (or anything supernatural really), you must accept the text only WE believe in. The question remains, why? What evidence are we to look to?

I might add that the Elizabeth Smart story could be applicable to any number of denominations, Roman Catholic in particular. You know my story. I was born and bred and reared in the Catholic faith. Jesus was taught, but I was never taught how to be born again. I was told I needed to be good and do my best, go to Mass, yada yada yada. I and most of the Catholics I was around were cultural Christians.

And did Protestants define your religion by the beliefs of those cultural Christians like Mormonism is defined here by cultural Mormons?

we did the "stuff" but the stuff was meaningless without a personal relationship with Jesus.

So you're implying they weren't "real" Christians? Didnt you know you can't challenge the experience of other Christians, or even question if they had a personal relationship with Jesus? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just raising the common objection to the Mormons when they say similar concepts.

I was never ever about a personal relationship with Jesus in either Catholic elementary or high schools and certainly not at Sunday Mass.

In college, when I was challenged to read the written word of God, I learned how He could change me, a despicable sinner, into a loved blood-bought child of God who God Himself wanted to clean up so my walk could somehow match my perfect position of righteousness in His sight by faith in Jesus.

Yes, I had a similar experience, in High School after I was shunned by my peers (who were all Mormon) for typical social/political games in high school, I read the scriptures for myself, and found God's unconditional love for me.

It was a difficult road for me to admit I had been hoodwinked all those years. It was the word of God that made the difference. I trusted the Bible even as a cultural Catholic. I just didn't read it. I trusted those good nuns, brothers, priests, bishops, cardinals and Popes knew what they were teaching us. Majo system shock when I found out it wasn't all true. As a Catholic I believe the RCC was the only "true" church established by God. Mormons are no different.

Fortunately, you had a vetted Protestant Theology that has existed for 300+ years to fall back on. And that which challenged you didn't question the God you believed in either.
If you ever wonder why I always defend questionable beliefs painted on Mormonism with the statement "Where is that found in the Standard Works?" It's because you're exactly right - the word of God makes all the difference.
Unfortunately, our critics wont let us separate the baby from the bathwater. If we do so, we're accused of white washing our beliefs, or we're hiding what we "really" believe.

Elizabeth was taught her personal worth was wrapped up in her purity. When that was taken from her, she was garbage. God doesn't see us that way. We have no worth in and of ourselves. It is only in Jesus and only with Jesus do we find life, worth and fullness of joy, regardless of the circumstances.

Fortunately, she understands that now, and speaks against those tactics to teach abstinence. Yet, those most bitter against the Church, in my experience, we're those coerced to believe with similar tactics - being shamed because they didn't naturally believe or have the gift of faith.

I pray all of us during this lead up to Resurrection Sunday find that same relationship, joy and worth only He can give.

Me too

 

[Aaron32]

Aaron, we’ve discussed these questions before here. But you ignored them or got angry.

No, that's projection. Im ok parting ways, willing to agree to disagree. You initially say you are ok with each of us having our own personal beliefs, but you won't drop it, so I have to say "ok. Whatever. Do what works for you." And you get angry because I'm being dismissive. And I am dismissive because I don't know how else to end the conversation. And if I just didn't respond, it would be that perceived as "silence is agreement"

Can we have this conversation without you telling me what I'm thinking or feeling, or telling me by keeping my Mormon beliefs "I missed the point"? Are you willing to understand me, or are you just seeking validation of your narrative?
To show that we're on the same plane of reasoning and awareness, go ahead and respond to my reply of your last post which I carried over to another board. Until then, I don't see anything positive coming from ongoing discussion.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/working-theology.18866/

 

[Aaron32]

The thing is, along with asking if the Book of Mormon is true, you need to study how it stacks up with God’s word in the Bible. And how it came to be. And who produced it. And what gospel does it bring with it? Is it a different one than Christ taught? And was it brought by a false prophet? What are the fruits it produced… as in mormonism.

This is a great question. What principle taught in the Book of Mormon that you vehemently disagree with?

As far as book origins, I'll flip this question around on your beliefs, with a video that raises similar questions about the Bible, and post it on the atheism board. But be warned, it might cause you another faith crisis: https://forums.carm.org/threads/objectively-evaluating-religious-text.18873/

 

[Magdalena]

No, that's projection. Im ok parting ways, willing to agree to disagree. You initially say you are ok with each of us having our own personal beliefs, but you won't drop it, so I have to say "ok. Whatever. Do what works for you." And you get angry because I'm being dismissive. And I am dismissive because I don't know how else to end the conversation. And if I just didn't respond, it would be that perceived as "silence is agreement"

Can we have this conversation without you telling me what I'm thinking or feeling, or telling me by keeping my Mormon beliefs "I missed the point"? Are you willing to understand me, or are you just seeking validation of your narrative?
To show that we're on the same plane of reasoning and awareness, go ahead and respond to my reply of your last post which I carried over to another board. Until then, I don't see anything positive coming from ongoing discussion.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/working-theology.18866/

Until you lose the attitude with me, you can just forget it.

 

[Aaron32]

Until you lose the attitude with me, you can just forget it.

Which attitude is "that my opinions and perspectives are equally valid as yours"?

Never going to happen.

 

[organgrinder]

The CES letter didn't open a lot of eyes, it blinded them IMO.

Obviously i DISAGREE.

Right. Whereas, the Catholics teaches other churches are true?

The RCC didn't used to teach that until Vatican 2. Imperfect union is how it is framed. All about the church as institution with "authority". not realizing the church is a living organism with authority from God since God Himself lives within the believer. The physical church with its leadership, etc. is if you will, the framework by which the organism operates, The church isn't a building. It has always been people.

Interesting. I didn't know Protestants were so liberal in their beliefs, accepting other religious texts as divine, and other Gods as plausible. If Joseph Smith is guilty, Christian are equally guilty. Just change the the context from "church" to "religion".

I don't follow your statement.

Where as you believe the Protestants' "lie" that there's "only on path to God"?
I ask this sarcastically, by abstractifying and reframe your reasoning against your own beliefs to help you realize how your judgement is seen in a person with different perspective.

I believe what Jesus said here at John 14:5-6.
John 14:5-6
Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

This portion of the convo should probably be carried over to the Atheism board, but based on what, should people agree with this statement?
If people can't trust themselves, why should they trust you? What evidence should they look for? How can they know the Bible was written by God? If you're a real Christian, you'll walk a mile twain with me on this one, but I promise I won't abandon you in despair as anti-mormons do.

People shouldn't trust me. They should trust what is in God's written word, comparing what I say and believe against it. That is what the Bereans did with Paul. Any preacher worth his salt will make the same statement.

And did Protestants define your religion by the beliefs of those cultural Christians like Mormonism is defined here by cultural Mormons?

Protestants (when I was Catholic) challenged me to see what God's word had to say. I researched the pros and cons with books from the library but ultimately settled on trusting the Word of God.

So you're implying they weren't "real" Christians? Didnt you know you can't challenge the experience of other Christians, or even question if they had a personal relationship with Jesus? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just raising the common objection to the Mormons when they say similar concepts.

Any "real Christian" has a relationship with Jesus. Those who do not are not biblical Christians, but cultural Christians. I can challenge anyone who claims they are a Christian. Just asking a few questions will tell me what they believe and how it is applied. That doesn't mean someone who is struggling with sin and isn't walking the walk.

 

[Magdalena]

Which attitude is "that my opinions and perspectives are equally valid as yours"?

Never going to happen.

You don’t believe my opinions and perspectives are equally as valid?

Is it women in general you have a problem with? Or female former mormons? Or women who speak up to you?

You brought up all the issues and questions I addressed in your OP. But you don’t want to hear my response. You get rude and belligerent.

What is that about?

 

[Aaron32]

You don’t believe my opinions and perspectives are equally as valid?

I believe our opinions are perspectives are equally valid.
You want, and have, told me how I think, feel, and what motivates me. No thanks. Not interested.

Is it women in general you have a problem with? Or female former mormons? Or women who speak up to you?

None. I love the women in my life. I have a wonderful and happy marriage of 22+years. My boss is a woman.
They respect me as a person. They do not tell me what I'm thinking, feeling, nor continually psycho analyze me (that's called manipulation). Unfortunately, my mom was abusive like that, so I'm very sensitive to it.

You brought up all the issues and questions I addressed in your OP. But you don’t want to hear my response. You get rude and belligerent.

By saying "Our beliefs and opinions are both equally valid" is rude and belligerant? Truly. Get over yourself.
We will have a conversation as equals, you will answer my questions and hear our my reasoning, as I will answer your questions and hear out your reasoning, or we will not speak at all.

 

[Magdalena]

I believe our opinions are perspectives are equally valid.
You want, and have, told me how I think, feel, and what motivates me. No thanks. Not interested.

None. I love the women in my life. I have a wonderful and happy marriage of 22+years. My boss is a woman.
They respect me as a person. They do not tell me what I'm thinking, feeling, nor continually psycho analyze me (that's called manipulation). Unfortunately, my mom was abusive like that, so I'm very sensitive to it.

By saying "Our beliefs and opinions are both equally valid" is rude and belligerant? Truly. Get over yourself.
We will have a conversation as equals, you will answer my questions and hear our my reasoning, as I will answer your questions and hear out your reasoning, or we will not speak at all.

The thing is you don’t do that. You don’t hear my reasoning. You just get rude.

I’ve answered your questions. I’ve spoken of things that many people experience when they leave mormonism. I’ve given my own experiences. I’ve given encouragement and advice. You see that as telling you how you think and feel. It’s not. It’s an explanation of what happens for many, and things that might help navigate your way through it.

So I’m setting the boundary. We won’t talk at all. I don’t need that. Good luck in your journey.

 

[Aaron32]

The thing is you don’t do that. You don’t hear my reasoning. You just get rude.

No I hear you. You repeatedly talk about why I believe in false prophets. I disagree.
You also tell me to trust Christ. I've done that. You disagree.
I don't think there's anything new to talk about, just rehashing the same old thing.

I’ve answered your questions. I’ve spoken of things that many people experience when they leave mormonism. I’ve given my own experiences. I’ve given encouragement and advice. You see that as telling you how you think and feel. It’s not. It’s an explanation of what happens for many, and things that might help navigate your way through it.

I've yet to see a reply on the posts where I've replied to you outside this forum.
i think you have your "Christian" lenses on, and you'll always refer back to your beliefs as "the truth" instead of thinking objectively.

So I’m setting the boundary. We won’t talk at all. I don’t need that. Good luck in your journey.

Sounds good. Thank you!

 

[Theo1689]

Obviously, if they've paid attention to you, they can't listen to their hearts, because their hearts have deceived them,

So you don't believe that?

Tell me you don't believe the Bible without telling me you don't believe the Bible...

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,​

and desperately sick; who can understand it?​

 

[Gordon]

I believe God answers prayers for mormons and non-mormons. But we sometimes mistake the answers. And that can be for many reasons as well. I can read the New Testament and get a strong witness from Spirit about Christ. I can read about Him in other literature and get a witness too. But that witness is not about the validity or holiness of any other publication. The witness is about Christ.

The Book of Mormon includes the story of Christ’s resurrection. You can read that and feel it’s true. That’s a testimony of Christ that often gets confused with a witness that the book is true.

I've been trying to hammer this point for a long time... especially when people ask what makes my witness true versus the witness from others. As you aptly point out, the Comforter witnesses of truth, period. It doesn't matter where the source comes from. The problem, is many associate the source with that truth...so if a pastor is speaking about Christ, and one receives a spiritual witness of Him, they most likely will equate that pastor to truth. The difference with the LDS Church is that all members and investigators are persuaded to seek a personal witness of the BoM. No other religion does this. Your pastor does not teach one to gain a personal witness of the Bible (yes, I have done so...and I have yet to meet a critic who has done likewise), they are just expected to take it as "God's Word". Muslims are not asked to seek a witness of the Qur'an...they believe, or die. Jews are not asked to seek a witness of the Torah, and so forth. Yet that's exactly what the LDS are urged to do.

You suggest that people should "research" it first (which to you, I presume, is "finding out" JS was a "conman" or that the Church teaches "another" Jesus)...but that likely entails hearing all kinds of falsehoods from critics. The key, always, is to rely on the Lord, not Man (including your own reasoning). Now, this is no way means we are to shut our brains off, or not to question things..but that the ultimate source of truth comes from God, and His Spirit. If I indeed learn, from God, that the BoM is true...I can then go from there, and take all the nonsense from the critics with a grain of salt. Critics, on the other hand, simply expect us to take their word for things...their interpretations of the Bible. They literally take the Comforter out of the equation. You talk about wolves in sheep's clothing, and false prophets...yet it doesn't even occur to you to apply that to those who defined your doctrines centuries after Christ and His apostles...those who decided which texts would or wouldn't be included in the Bible. The Bible clearly speaks of a universal Apostasy... yet you seem to think nothing of it. Stop trusting in Man's (your) interpretation of the Bible, and seek for a witness of truth that can only come from God Himself.

 

[Magdalena]

I've been trying to hammer this point for a long time... especially when people ask what makes my witness true versus the witness from others. As you aptly point out, the Comforter witnesses of truth, period. It doesn't matter where the source comes from. The problem, is many associate the source with that truth...so if a pastor is speaking about Christ, and one receives a spiritual witness of Him, they most likely will equate that pastor to truth. The difference with the LDS Church is that all members and investigators are persuaded to seek a personal witness of the BoM. No other religion does this. Your pastor does not teach one to gain a personal witness of the Bible (yes, I have done so...and I have yet to meet a critic who has done likewise), they are just expected to take it as "God's Word". Muslims are not asked to seek a witness of the Qur'an...they believe, or die. Jews are not asked to seek a witness of the Torah, and so forth. Yet that's exactly what the LDS are urged to do.

You suggest that people should "research" it first (which to you, I presume, is "finding out" JS was a "conman" or that the Church teaches "another" Jesus)...but that likely entails hearing all kinds of falsehoods from critics. The key, always, is to rely on the Lord, not Man (including your own reasoning). Now, this is no way means we are to shut our brains off, or not to question things..but that the ultimate source of truth comes from God, and His Spirit. If I indeed learn, from God, that the BoM is true...I can then go from there, and take all the nonsense from the critics with a grain of salt. Critics, on the other hand, simply expect us to take their word for things...their interpretations of the Bible. They literally take the Comforter out of the equation. You talk about wolves in sheep's clothing, and false prophets...yet it doesn't even occur to you to apply that to those who defined your doctrines centuries after Christ and His apostles...those who decided which texts would or wouldn't be included in the Bible. The Bible clearly speaks of a universal Apostasy... yet you seem to think nothing of it. Stop trusting in Man's (your) interpretation of the Bible, and seek for a witness of truth that can only come from God Himself.

It was God who told us to study and compare everything to what He taught us. If it doesn’t match, it’s wrong. He warned us of false prophets who would come teaching false doctrine. We have God’s words and His Spirit to help us discern the truth.

Mormonism is not the same gospel Christ taught. And you can’t get to Christ by following false prophets. Even if their book talks about Him. And even if their church has His name in it.

I only go by what Jesus taught and what His Spirit says. Those things have to match. Otherwise you can be fooled, or fool yourself.

 

[Gordon]

It was God who told us to study and compare everything to what He taught us. If it doesn’t match, it’s wrong. He warned us of false prophets who would come teaching false doctrine. We have God’s words and His Spirit to help us discern the truth.

Mormonism is not the same gospel Christ taught. And you can’t get to Christ by following false prophets. Even if their book talks about Him. And even if their church has His name in it.

I only go by what Jesus taught and what His Spirit says. Those things have to match. Otherwise you can be fooled, or fool yourself.

You basically just ignored everything I said...only to throw out "false prophets" again. No, neither Joseph Smith, nor any other LDS prophet was/is a "false prophet". No, the Restored Gospel is not "another Gospel". I'm sorry you have chosen to reject the fullness of Christ's Gospel to embrace false secular doctrines...but that's on you. The Book of Mormon aligns perfectly with the Bible...just not with the incorrect interpretations you accept. The Spirit teaches us of Truth...but if you reject that, or refuse to seek it out because of the craftiness of Man, that's not on the Lord.

 

[Magdalena]

You basically just ignored everything I said...only to throw out "false prophets" again. No, neither Joseph Smith, nor any other LDS prophet was/is a "false prophet". No, the Restored Gospel is not "another Gospel". I'm sorry you have chosen to reject the fullness of Christ's Gospel to embrace false secular doctrines...but that's on you. The Book of Mormon aligns perfectly with the Bible...just not with the incorrect interpretations you accept. The Spirit teaches us of Truth...but if you reject that, or refuse to seek it out because of the craftiness of Man, that's not on the Lord.

You call the Bible “the craftiness of men?” Because that’s what I go by.

 

[Gordon]

You call the Bible “the craftiness of men?” Because that’s what I go by.

No...I call their interpretations of the Bible, which you espouse, that. You should be going by the Spirit of God.

 

[Magdalena]

No...I call their interpretations of the Bible, which you espouse, that. You should be going by the Spirit of God.

Your warm fuzzy feelings can lead you astray. The doctrine has to line up with what God told us in His word. I’m sorry you don’t trust His word. I hope that will change for you.