How Did Hostoric Reformists and The Puritans Reflect Truth?

Jabez

Active member
Perhaps their:

1.) Judgements, Torture, and Execution upon those averse to their Doctrine?

2.) Uncertainty of personal Salvation?

3.) Dismissal of Eschatologic Prophesy as mere analogy?

4.) Message of hopelessness to God's non-Elect?

5.) Denial of 1 John 2:2?

6.) Lack of Joy and Hope for the Lost?

7.) Denial of Harpazo unto The Church?

8.) Antisemitism as published by Luther?

Are there features of God's Image within them to be considered? What would be their witness?

Mod note: This topic is deliberately divisive.
 
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2.) Uncertainty of personal Salvation?

They didn't teach that.

4.) Message of hopelessness to God's non-Elect?

Not only is this false, but it's ridiculous on its face.
Do you ACTUALLY believe anyone actually:
1) went up to people;
2) identified them as "non-Elect"; and then
3) told them they have "no hope"?
Ridiculous.

5.) Denial of 1 John 2:2?

Nobody denied 1 John 2:2, or any other verse.

6.) Lack of Joy and Hope for the Lost?

Ridiculous, since we don't know who "the Lost" are.

7.) Denial of Harpazo unto The Church?

Are you just making stuff up now?

8.) Antisemitism as published by Luther?

This is a very nuanced topic, and is not as cut-and-dry as people would like to think. As I understand it, Luther hated Judaism, but had compassion for Jews. He was not an "anti-Semite", he was "anti-Judaism". There is a difference.

In 1523, Luther wrote:
“Therefore, I would request and advise that one deal gently with them [Jews] and instruct them from Scripture; then some of them may come along. …If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. … If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either.” (That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, 1523 [LW 45:199-229] p. 229)

Derek Michaud writes:
"No, Luther was not an anti-Semite. This is not to say that he did not have strong feelings towards Jews. Especially in his later life Luther can be seen as extremely anti-Jewish (see An admonition against the Jews, 1546 [WA 51, 195-196] Tran.: Derek Michaud/Eckehart Stoeve, 2000.). This does not mean however that he was anti-Semitic. The term anti-Semitic refers to a racial prejudice, where anti-Jewish is a religious term. The anti-Semitism of the Nazis era was racial, whereas the anti-Judaism of Luther was open to conversion, even when he was at his most anti-Jewish."
 
I've worked through a number of the "real" Luther or "The Truth about Luther" webpages over the years, and I've found that most often those webpages do not either present the real Luther or truth about Luther. They're typically one-sided attempts to throw as much mud as possible by making Luther worse than he was.... sort of like... Luther kicked a cat on his way to post the 95 Theses. I do realize though there's the opposite end of the spectrum that ignores Luther's sins and faults. That's not good history either.

As I trace back the comments here, I don't think the perspective mentioned by Theo1689 qualifies as "revisionism" in the scope of actual studies on Luther's attitude towards the Jews. Theo1689 presented an acceptable response within the field of research. It's a typical response to point the obvious out that early on Luther was favorable towards the Jews (while societies during the 16th century typically were not) and then later Luther was not favorable towards the Jews. His later comments were against the Jewish religion, not Jews as human beings (Theo1689 cited Derek Michaud, I have no idea who that is, but it's a typical apologetic on this topic, not revisionism). A good example of this apologetic is that in Luther's thought, if a Jew converted to Christianity, that person was not a sub-human Christian. Luther did not write contemptuously against the Jews because of biology, but because of theology. I'd add also, I don't recall anyone contemporary with Luther actually taking his advice, in fact, some of Luther's contemporaries have been said to have been dismayed with his anti-Jewish writings. I find it interesting that Luther's comments about the Jews weren't an important topic till after World War II. Search the literature before that, and you will not find the same amount of writing about it.

Now here's where it does get a bit more confusing.... in determining what modern people should do with Luther's comments about the Jews and where actually revisionism come in to play. If I recall, the term antisemitism is from the 19th century, coined by a person who thought semites were inferior to Aryans. This distinction isn't in Luther's theology, so in a sense it is anachronistic to ask whether or not Luther was antisemitic. But, words evolve in meaning.... Now the word antisemitism broadly means anything against the Jews in any sense. The debate over the last decade or so centers around whether the evolved use of the term is a significant step towards describing previous history or if it's setting up an anachronistic standard for evaluating previous history. Back about twenty years ago I was more along the lines of Luther being anti-Jewish religion. Now, I'm more along the lines of seeing Luther's anti-Judaism as having detrimental effects on Jewish people. Simply stated, the actual revisionism going on is being done by those now redefining words like antisemitism, and I don't see that revisionism as so bad.

Simply because Luther was wrong on his attitude toward the Jews does not necessarily mean he was wrong on the need for church reform, the proclamation of the gospel of justification by faith alone, or sola scriptura. Luther was not infallible. He said a number of things ranging on the scale of brilliant to typical to ridiculous to offensive. From my perspective, Luther's theology neither stands nor falls because of statements on the negative side of the scale. It's my opinion that Luther's attitude toward the Jews is part of Church history, and, to point a finger at Luther one needs to consistently point the fingers beyond Luther as well. This would be the consistent thing to do.
 
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I've worked through a number of the "real" Luther or "The Truth about Luther" webpages over the years, and I've found that most often those webpages do not either present the real Luther or truth about Luther. They're typically one-sided attempts to throw as much mud as possible by making Luther worse than he was.... sort of like... Luther kicked a cat on his way to post the 95 Theses. I do realize though there's the opposite end of the spectrum that ignores Luther's sins and faults. That's not good history either.

As I trace back the comments here, I don't think the perspective mentioned by Theo1689 qualifies as "revisionism" in the scope of actual studies on Luther's attitude towards the Jews. Theo1689 presented an acceptable response within the field of research. It's a typical response to point the obvious out that early on Luther was favorable towards the Jews (while societies during the 16th century typically were not) and then later Luther was not favorable towards the Jews. His later comments were against the Jewish religion, not Jews as human beings (Theo1689 cited Derek Michaud, I have no idea who that is, but it's a typical apologetic on this topic, not revisionism). A good example of this apologetic is that in Luther's thought, if a Jew converted to Christianity, that person was not a sub-human Christian. Luther did not write contemptuously against the Jews because of biology, but because of theology. I'd add also, I don't recall anyone contemporary with Luther actually taking his advice, in fact, some of Luther's contemporaries have been said to have been dismayed with his anti-Jewish writings. I find it interesting that Luther's comments about the Jews weren't an important topic till after World War II. Search the literature before that, and you will not find the same amount of writing about it.

Now here's where it does get a bit more confusing.... in determining what modern people should do with Luther's comments about the Jews and where actually revisionism come in to play. If I recall, the term antisemitism is from the 19th century, coined by a person who thought semites were inferior to Aryans. This distinction isn't in Luther's theology, so in a sense it is anachronistic to ask whether or not Luther was antisemitic. But, words evolve in meaning.... Now the word antisemitism broadly means anything against the Jews in any sense. The debate over the last decade or so centers around whether the evolved use of the term is a significant step towards describing previous history or if it's setting up an anachronistic standard for evaluating previous history. Back about twenty years ago I was more along the lines of Luther being anti-Jewish religion. Now, I'm more along the lines of seeing Luther's anti-Judaism as having detrimental effects on Jewish people. Simply stated, the actual revisionism going on is being done by those now redefining words like antisemitism, and I don't see that revisionism as so bad.

Simply because Luther was wrong on his attitude toward the Jews does not necessarily mean he was wrong on the need for church reform, the proclamation of the gospel of justification by faith alone, or sola scriptura. Luther was not infallible. He said a number of things ranging on the scale of brilliant to typical to ridiculous to offensive. From my perspective, Luther's theology neither stands nor falls because of statements on the negative side of the scale. It's my opinion that Luther's attitude toward the Jews is part of Church history, and, to point a finger at Luther one needs to consistently point the fingers beyond Luther as well. This would be the consistent thing to do.
Would you say there's been a Cancel Culture in Christendom for longer than there has been in Contemporary Society?

The Gifts of God are without Repentance. This could mean that when someone like Luther was known to be a Teacher of God, that his Teaching cannot be Canceled because of his Later life. I was very troubled about what happened with Ravi Zacharias; I still don't know what to think about Canceling him...

Throwing the Bathwater out, and the Baby out; leaves us with what? Other POV's to latch onto? Throwing out the 95 Thesis leaves us with Roman Catholicism; and Halloween. ~ I don't think anyone here is condoning Canceling the Protestant Reformation because of Martin Luther; so why raise Luther as a reason to reject anything?
 
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