How many people believed in the Trinity before AD 30?

[Towerwatchman]

So..........

If the OT is loaded with Trinity and all one has to do is read...

And if the OT does reveal the Trinity, though not clearly…

How many people believed in the Trinity before AD 30?

Irrelevant

 

[shroom]

Don’t change the subject.

I was responding to this statement by you in this thread:

Both state that the Trinity is found in scripture.

Where is the Trinity found in Scripture?

 

[johnny guitar]

TRINITARIAN #1…


TRINITARIAN #2…


What version of the Bible are you each reading?

NKJV.
Next question..................................

 

[johnny guitar]

Where?


Agreed. Neither does the NT.


Where? Where is God EVER spoken of as a Trinity, triune, tri-partite, multi-personal, or anything similar?

God is revealed as Triune throughout The NT.

 

[johnny guitar]

Do you have any idea if AT LEAST ONE person believed in the Trinity before AS 30?

Excluding Jesus.

No I don't. Irrelevant.

 

[shroom]

God is revealed as Triune throughout The NT.

Where?

 

[Towerwatchman]

I was responding to this statement by you in this thread:


Where is the Trinity found in Scripture?

Jn 12:37-41 “But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.”

The subject [Him] is Jesus. John states that when Isaiah wrote these words down he saw Jesus. But when did Isaiah see Jesus for Isaiah lived during the 8th century BC? Note it was when Isaiah said the above things.

Is 6:10-11 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”

So what did Isaiah see when he wrote this.

Is 6:1-4 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” … 5… For my eyes have seen the King, The Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah wrote that he saw God in all His Glory. John states that Isaiah saw Jesus. Now some say that what Isaiah saw was the glory of God that was bestowed on Jesus.

Is 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

Side Note: Is 6:8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

Jesus states that no one has seen or heard The Father.

Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nnor seen His form.

Luke writes in Acts that it was the HS that spoke to Isaiah.

Acts 28:25 The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: 26 "Go to this people, and say, You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.'



Premise 1 John states that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus.

Premise 2 Isaiah states he saw the glory of God

Premise 3 God states that He does not share His glory with anyone.

Premise 4 Jesus states that no one has seen the Father.

Premise 5 Luke states that it was the HS that spoke to Isaiah

Premise 6 We have plurality in Is 6:8

Conclusion Isaiah saw and heard the Triune God.

 

[shroom]

Jn 12:37-41 “But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.”

The subject [Him] is Jesus. John states that when Isaiah wrote these words down he saw Jesus. But when did Isaiah see Jesus for Isaiah lived during the 8th century BC? Note it was when Isaiah said the above things.

Is 6:10-11 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”

So what did Isaiah see when he wrote this.

Is 6:1-4 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” … 5… For my eyes have seen the King, The Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah wrote that he saw God in all His Glory. John states that Isaiah saw Jesus. Now some say that what Isaiah saw was the glory of God that was bestowed on Jesus.

Is 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

Side Note: Is 6:8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

Jesus states that no one has seen or heard The Father.

Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nnor seen His form.

Luke writes in Acts that it was the HS that spoke to Isaiah.

Acts 28:25 The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: 26 "Go to this people, and say, You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.'



Premise 1 John states that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus.

Premise 2 Isaiah states he saw the glory of God

Premise 3 God states that He does not share His glory with anyone.

Premise 4 Jesus states that no one has seen the Father.

Premise 5 Luke states that it was the HS that spoke to Isaiah

Premise 6 We have plurality in Is 6:8

That is ALL circumstantial evidence at best. You were taught God is a Trinity, so you look for scripture where the Trinity might be squeezed into the text. The Trinity is at BEST an inferred doctrine. The Bible never says God is a Trinity, triune, tri-partite, multi-personal, or any such thing. It never alludes that God is anything other than ONE being, YHWH. YHWH is our God, YHWH alone (Deut 6:4). Jesus Christ said the Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3). Paul said that "for us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor 8:6). Jesus Christ has a God, he prayed to his God, he was raised from the dead by his God, he ascended to his God, he is seated at the right hand of his God. At the end of the millennial kingdom, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to God.

Conclusion Isaiah saw and heard the Triune God.

Only for those who were taught that God is a Trinity. The Bible does not teach it.

 

[johnny guitar]

That is ALL circumstantial evidence at best. You were taught God is a Trinity, so you look for scripture where the Trinity might be squeezed into the text. The Trinity is at BEST an inferred doctrine. The Bible never says God is a Trinity, triune, tri-partite, multi-personal, or any such thing. It never alludes that God is anything other than ONE being, YHWH. YHWH is our God, YHWH alone (Deut 6:4). Jesus Christ said the Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3). Paul said that "for us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor 8:6). Jesus Christ has a God, he prayed to his God, he was raised from the dead by his God, he ascended to his God, he is seated at the right hand of his God. At the end of the millennial kingdom, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to God.


Only for those who were taught that God is a Trinity. The Bible does not teach it.

Blatant denial of clear Biblical revelation.
The Trinity is clearly revealed in many NT texts.
It is NEVER "squeezed into" any text.
BTW Jesus Christ is The ONE Lord who is God.

 

[Caroljeen]

TRINITARIANS…

If the OT is loaded with Trinity and all one has to do is read…

How many people believed in the Trinity before AD 30?

I'm not a Trinitarian.

The answer is no one. Jesus didn't teach it either.
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, Jesus would have made it clear to his Jewish tribe that God is three and not one as Israel had always known God to be. Deut 6:4

 

[shroom]

Blatant denial of clear Biblical revelation.

Where is the clear biblical revelation saying God is a Trinity?

The Trinity is clearly revealed in many NT texts.

Where?

It is NEVER "squeezed into" any text.

It definitely is.

BTW Jesus Christ is The ONE Lord who is God.

No, the man God made Lord and Christ has a God. God does not have a God.

 

[johnny guitar]

I'm not a Trinitarian.

The answer is no one. Jesus didn't teach it either.
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, Jesus would have made it clear to his Jewish tribe that God is three and not one as Israel had always known God to be. Deut 6:4

Jesus REVEALED The Trinity, NOT taught it.
NO ONE has EVER taught it.

 

[johnny guitar]

Where is the clear biblical revelation saying God is a Trinity?


Where?


It definitely is.


No, the man God made Lord and Christ has a God. God does not have a God.

The Lord who is eternal, has NO God, nor is He a MAN.

 

[shroom]

Jesus REVEALED The Trinity, NOT taught it.

What in the hell does that MEAN, Johnny?

NO ONE has EVER taught it.

PLENTY of people have taught it. They're wrong, but the Trinity has been taught for ~1400 years.

 

[johnny guitar]

What in the hell does that MEAN, Johnny?


PLENTY of people have taught it. They're wrong, but the Trinity has been taught for ~1400 years.

I have NEVER heard anyone "teach" The Trinity.

 

[shroom]

I have NEVER heard anyone "teach" The Trinity.

Why do you believe God is a Trinity?
How did you learn God is a Trinity?

 

[Towerwatchman]

That is ALL circumstantial evidence at best. You were taught God is a Trinity, so you look for scripture where the Trinity might be squeezed into the text.

Jurors are instructed to make no qualitative distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence in a case. Judges tell jurors, “Both direct and circumstantial evidence are acceptable types of evidence to prove or disprove the elements of a charge, including intent and mental state and acts necessary to a conviction, and neither is necessarily more reliable than the other. Neither is entitled to a greater weight than the other.”

Just as in any court case the Biblical accounts would be considered circumstantial evidence. One piece of circumstantial evidence can be interpreted in more than one way. Accumulated circumstantial evidence becomes a powerful collection, collaborating each piece of evidence that came before, closing the window of doubt, until they support one inference over another.

The Trinity is at BEST an inferred doctrine. The Bible never says God is a Trinity, triune, tri-partite, multi-personal, or any such thing. It never alludes that God is anything other than ONE being, YHWH. YHWH is our God, YHWH alone (Deut 6:4).

• Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord {YHWH} our God [Elohim], the Lord {YHWH} is one [Ehad]!”
• This is part of the Shema, which was recited by the Jews twice a day, one in the morning and once in the evening. This confession of monotheism does not preclude the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. God is in plural form “Elohim” and implies the Trinity and “one” “ehad” implies unity.
• “Ehad” means a united one; Adam and Eve were one “ehad” flesh. Our church is one “ehad” church.
• If Moses wanted to state that God is a singular God he would of used “yahid” which means singular one as in one chair, or one table.
• The Jews of the Old Testament were reciting their creed which spoke volumes of the Trinity.
• Elohim = Plural intensive -singular meaning.
• [Plurality and unity of one]

Jesus Christ said the Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Now you open a can or worms. If the Father is the one true God that would make Jesus a false God in Jn 1:1. Would have been nice to reconcile your argument, instead of making the Lord look psychotic. Your arugment might hold water if Jesus said ,"Only you, Father, are the true God." This is not what Jesus said. Note, Jesus said "you, the only true God." The word "only" does not modify "Father," but rather "God."

Paul said that "for us there is but one God, the Father"
(1 Cor 8:6). Jesus Christ has a God, he prayed to his God, he was raised from the dead by his God, he ascended to his God, he is seated at the right hand of his God. At the end of the millennial kingdom, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to God.

Still quoting from the same book are we. You need new material.

1 Corinthians 8:6 If the reference that the Father being “one God” proves that Jesus is not God, then by the same logic the reference that Jesus is “one Lord” means that the Father is not “Lord”. Matt 11:25 Jesus refers to the Father as God and Lord. It is illogical to conclude from this vs. that Jesus is not God as to conclude that the Father is not Lord.

 

[shroom]

Jurors are instructed to make no qualitative distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence in a case. Judges tell jurors, “Both direct and circumstantial evidence are acceptable types of evidence to prove or disprove the elements of a charge, including intent and mental state and acts necessary to a conviction, and neither is necessarily more reliable than the other. Neither is entitled to a greater weight than the other.”

Just as in any court case the Biblical accounts would be considered circumstantial evidence. One piece of circumstantial evidence can be interpreted in more than one way. Accumulated circumstantial evidence becomes a powerful collection, collaborating each piece of evidence that came before, closing the window of doubt, until they support one inference over another.

It would help if you had even one verse that teaches that God is a Trinity.

• Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord {YHWH} our God [Elohim], the Lord {YHWH} is one [Ehad]!”
• This is part of the Shema, which was recited by the Jews twice a day, one in the morning and once in the evening. This confession of monotheism does not preclude the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Where do you get the idea that the Trinity is a biblical doctrine? Where is it in the Bible.

• God is in plural form “Elohim” and implies the Trinity and “one” “ehad” implies unity.

Another "inference." You believe it implies the Trinity because someone TAUGHT you God is a Trinity, and you're basing EVERYTHING on what someone told you. You seem like a smart guy. Why don't you start from the Bible and see where it, and it alone, leads you? It will NOT lead you to God being a Trinity.

• “Ehad” means a united one; Adam and Eve were one “ehad” flesh. Our church is one “ehad” church.
• If Moses wanted to state that God is a singular God he would of used “yahid” which means singular one as in one chair, or one table.
• The Jews of the Old Testament were reciting their creed which spoke volumes of the Trinity.

Good grief!!! It did anything BUT speak about a Trinity!

• Elohim = Plural intensive -singular meaning.
• [Plurality and unity of one]

Now you open a can or worms.

For you.

If the Father is the one true God that would make Jesus a false God in Jn 1:1.

John 1:1 isn't talking about Jesus Christ. It's talking about God's logos, His will, plan, or purposes.

Would have been nice to reconcile your argument, instead of making the Lord look psychotic.

The one true God is not psychotic. A three-personed God? well...

Your arugment might hold water if Jesus said ,"Only you, Father, are the true God." This is not what Jesus said. Note, Jesus said "you, the only true God." The word "only" does not modify "Father," but rather "God."

I've heard that one before, too. I don't buy it.

Still quoting from the same book are we. You need new material.

I'm quoting from the Bible. I don't need new material.

1 Corinthians 8:6 If the reference that the Father being “one God” proves that Jesus is not God, then by the same logic the reference that Jesus is “one Lord” means that the Father is not “Lord”. Matt 11:25 Jesus refers to the Father as God and Lord. It is illogical to conclude from this vs. that Jesus is not God as to conclude that the Father is not Lord.

God MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). The "one Lord" of Eph 4 is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Caroljeen]

Jesus REVEALED The Trinity, NOT taught it.
NO ONE has EVER taught it.

How did Jesus reveal the Trinity?
If Jesus revealed the Trinity why wasn't the doctrine taught explicitly by his disciples? Why did the doctrine have to develop over the course of a few hundred years?

 

[Lilel01]

I read again someone saying that in Deut. 6:4 is used the word "Elohim". I don't understand why people continue acting like they know what they're talking about, when they don't.

As I said in a different thread:

In Deut. 6:4 does not appear the word "Elohim", but 'Elohehnu ("our God"); so God here is ʼElo·hehʹ , not Elohim.

(...) Yehwahʹ ʼElo·hehʹnu Yehwahʹ ʼe·chadhʹ.

This stament in the Greek LXX (without the Name) says:

(...) κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν

The last colored phrase is repeated many times in Christian biblical writings, sometimes as θεὸς εἷς ἐστιν, and it's a direct allusion to Deut. 6:4, reminding Christians that Jehovah is one, the only God of the Jews and Christians. Check in Greek: Gal. 3:20 and James 2:19.

Jesus said that the God of the Jews is his Father in John 8:54, and Paul says that Jehovah is not only the God of the Jews but of the whole world:

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.