In Calvinism where is the love

[Theophilus]

God decreed sin in the world.

I'm still not seeing the love in Calvinism. Perhaps it's up ahead just around the bend. However I have found universal divine casual determinism on display quite clearly in Calvinism. Has John Calvin seemed to abdicate the idea that every single action is foreordained by God, and therefore human freedom is an illusion. Calvin states,"...it is vain to debate about prescience, In which it is clear that all events take place by his Sovereign appointment” You can find that in his book Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 6. Then it gets really deep..."creatures are so governed by the secret Council of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly determined.” so just for the sake of clarity we can call the idea that all actions are caused by God and predetermined "Universal divine casual determinism.”

I have to ask the question if someone forces someone else to do something evil, who is responsible for that evil?

Calvinism’s view of divine sovereignty as comprehensive causation via an all-encompassing decree, and in which God determines “everything that happens” is such an example. Calvinists have a God that “causes everything that happens.” Consistent Calvinists accept what this means... That God causes sin, evil, hatred, wars, rapes, diseases, and so on. Calvin himself was just such a consistent “Calvinist” in this respect: “The will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.

It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out. the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +.

 

[Howie]

I'm still not seeing the love in Calvinism.

You ought to be looking Calvinists. They're people, FYI; Calvinismism is not.

Perhaps it's up ahead just around the bend. However I have found universal divine casual determinism on display quite clearly in Calvinism. Has John Calvin seemed to abdicate the idea that every single action is foreordained by God, and therefore human freedom is an illusion.

Your freedom is an illusion? That's absurd.

Calvin states,"...it is vain to debate about prescience, In which it is clear that all events take place by his Sovereign appointment” You can find that in his book Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 6. Then it gets really deep..."creatures are so governed by the secret Council of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly determined.” so just for the sake of clarity we can call the idea that all actions are caused by God and predetermined "Universal divine casual determinism.”

How long have believed in the infallibility of John Calvin? I've never believed in it, ever.

I have to ask the question if someone forces someone else to do something evil, who is responsible for that evil?

The one who does it.

Calvinism’s view of divine sovereignty as comprehensive causation via an all-encompassing decree, and in which God determines “everything that happens” is such an example. Calvinists have a God that “causes everything that happens.” Consistent Calvinists accept what this means... That God causes sin, evil, hatred, wars, rapes, diseases, and so on. Calvin himself was just such a consistent “Calvinist” in this respect: “The will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.

To my knowledge, no one has proven otherwise. Care to try?

It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out. the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +.

To my knowledge, no one has proven otherwise. Care to try?

 

[Theo1689]

I'm still not seeing the love in Calvinism.

Let me see if I can help...


Calvinism:

A good man moves into town, and opens up a movie theatre. Despite the man being good, the townsfolk all despise him, and mistreat him. But he is a very forgiving man. And as a gesture of goodwill, he decides to have a private showing of the latest movie. And he chooses a number of the local townspeople, personally writes invitations for all of them, hand delivers them to the recipients, brings them to the theatre in a limousine he drives himself, personally welcomes each of them by name into the theatre, and shows them in their seats.

Freewill-ism:

A man moves into town, and opens up a movie theatre. All the townsfolk despise and mistreat them. But he has to get people to start coming to the theatre if he is going to make a living, so he gets a new film, and prints out a bunch of theatre passes, and sets them on a table in the town square, for "whoever" to pick up.

Which man was more loving?

Has John Calvin seemed to abdicate the idea that every single action is foreordained by God,

Who cares what "John Calvin" believed?
Why are you so obsessed with "John Calvin"?

I would much prefer to discuss the BIBLE.

Calvin states,"

Who cares what "John Calvin" stated?
Why are you so obsessed with "John Calvin"?

I would much prefer to discuss the BIBLE.

I have to ask the question if someone forces someone else to do something evil, who is responsible for that evil?

Who has 'forced someone else to do evil"?
Nobody here believes that.

Calvinism’s view of divine sovereignty as comprehensive causation via an all-encompassing decree, and in which God determines “everything that happens”

... comes from the BIBLE.
Gen. 50:20
Ex. 7:3
Isa. 10:5-7
Acts 4:27-28.

Calvinists have a God that “causes everything that happens.”

... just like the BIBLE teaches.

That God causes sin, evil, hatred, wars, rapes, diseases, and so on.

"You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good." -- Gen. 50:20.

in this respect: “The will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.

... precisely as the Bible teaches.

It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out.

Not at all.

the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +.

But your side makes abortion a GOOD thing, since it is the most efficient heaven-filling device known to man.

 

[Theo1689]

It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out. the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +.

Why is it evil for God to allow 6 million to die in the Holocaust, but not evil for a god to allw billions upon billionis upon billions of people (whom he CLAIMS to "love") to spend eternity in hellfire?

I don't see a whole lot of "love" in the Arminian god...

 

[Theophilus]

Sola Scripturists look in the Bible...

God is Love...

And God is Holy Holy Holy. He is Light, Life, Truth; and his Word is Truth. His Word teaches us more than 'God is Love'. Since God is Life, yet All do not Live; God doesn't have to Love All people. God Hates those who Sin...

Sola Scriptura!

How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms:

“Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1

“...We say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he longed before determined once for all to receive into salvation and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction... he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7.

“...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5. unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned.

Oh I know I can hear it now "but wait a minute, that's double predestination, and I don't believe in that! I only believe that God predestined elect and passes over the Reprobate.” Functionally there's no difference between predestination and double predestination. It's best to think this stuff through.

It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works?

If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone, dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell. So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me.

 

[Theo1689]

How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms:

Why are you so obsessed with "John Calvin"?

Why don't you want to discuss the BIBLE?

“Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1

Is there a reason why God is somehow "obligated" to include everyone?

he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7.

Is there a reason why God is somehow "obligated" to include everyone?

“...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5.

Is there a reason why God is somehow "obligated" to include everyone?

unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned.

So does the Bible.
Rom. 9.
Eph. 1.

It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works?

Invalid analogy.
You didn't create the children.
And sinners aren't "innocent".

If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone,

... just like Romans 9 teaches.

dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell.

Who "garnishes" their teeth?

But are you by chance referring to the following:

Matt. 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matt. 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Luke 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.


Btw, notice that some of those verses say they are "thrown" in, even though some of your buddies try to claim that God didn't throw them in, but that they instead went willingly.

So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me.

The important point is that it is BIBLICAL.

 

[ReverendRV]

How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms:

“Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1

“...We say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he longed before determined once for all to receive into salvation and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction... he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7.

“...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5. unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned.

Oh I know I can hear it now "but wait a minute, that's double predestination, and I don't believe in that! I only believe that God predestined elect and passes over the Reprobate.” Functionally there's no difference between predestination and double predestination. It's best to think this stuff through.

It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works?

If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone, dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell. So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me.

I'm a Sola Scripturist, I have to believe the Bible brother; for God so Loved the World. I've practically never read John Calvin. Since I'm a Sola Scripturist, I also believe God Hates All Sinners...

It's why we need Theology...

 

[Theophilus]

I'm a Sola Scripturist, I have to believe the Bible brother; for God so Loved the World. I've practically never read John Calvin. Since I'm a Sola Scripturist, I also believe God Hates All Sinners...

It's why we need Theology...

God hates all sinners is what you believe.
So therefore my question is this , are you a sinner ? If so then God hates you and does not love you .

 

[LeeH]

God hates all sinners is what you believe.
So therefore my question is this , are you a sinner ? If so then God hates you and does not love you .

Very good point.

 

[Howie]

God hates all sinners is what you believe.
So therefore my question is this , are you a sinner ? If so then God hates you and does not love you .

You're thinking is is unbiblical and silly. Believers are REDEEMED SINNERS, called saints.

 

[Howie]

Very good point.

?

 

[Howie]

How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms:

“Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1

“...We say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he longed before determined once for all to receive into salvation and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction... he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7.

“...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5. unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned.

Oh I know I can hear it now "but wait a minute, that's double predestination, and I don't believe in that! I only believe that God predestined elect and passes over the Reprobate.” Functionally there's no difference between predestination and double predestination. It's best to think this stuff through.

It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works?

If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone, dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell. So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me.

Appeal to emotion fallacy which comes from an utter lack of understanding of God (2 Tim 4:3).

The poster has set himself up as God.

 

[ReverendRV]

God hates all sinners is what you believe.
So therefore my question is this , are you a sinner ? If so then God hates you and does not love you .

God used to Hate me, but he substituted his Wrath for me to Jesus Christ; and his Love for Christ to me. God never stopped Loving Jesus, though he treated him like a Hated Sinner. This unchanging Love of God for Christ, was also Substituted to his adopted sons; Christ's Bride...

Since the Bible says God does not change, and he Hates All Sinners; a Substitution of Love needs to occur. We REALLY need the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory, to explain this...

 

[Theophilus]

God used to Hate me, but he substituted his Wrath for me to Jesus Christ; and his Love for Christ to me. God never stopped Loving Jesus, though he treated him like a Hated Sinner. This unchanging Love of God for Christ, was also Substituted to his adopted sons...

Since the Bible says God does not change, and he Hates All Sinners; a Substitution of Love needs to occur...

Where does God make the statement you claim that He hates all sinners ? And secondly what ever happened to love the sinner and hate the sin ?

 

[Howie]

Where does God make the statement you claim that He hates all sinners ?

Ps 5:5

And secondly what ever happened to love the sinner and hate the sin ?

You've broached the subject, you tell me

 

[ReverendRV]

Where does God make the statement you claim that He hates all sinners ? And secondly what ever happened to love the sinner and hate the sin ?

Psalm 5:5

On one hand, it's a Verse used against Calvinists; but like now, it will be denied by saying the translation doesn't mean it...

 

[Rockson]

God used to Hate me, but he substituted his Wrath for me to Jesus Christ;

So if he did this for you there must have been something about you he didn't hate then right? Or there must have been something of value about you he wanted to keep? So are you saying other people don't have the value that you have? How therefore can you love your neighbor as yourself?

Now the above I believe is a really good question. Something for all Calvinists to ask themselves. The point is you can't love your neighbor as yourself. I don't think within a Calvinists inner consciousness they can consider other people of equal value.

Since the Bible says God does not change, and he Hates All Sinners; a Substitution of Love needs to occur.

I don't believe God hates sinners but lets go with what you're saying. A substitution of Love needed to occur. But that's a change then. And what did you say his motivation to do so was? LOVE. So God could NOT have hated the sinner! The way out of your dilemmas Rev is just acknowledge once and for all that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. There's no other place for you to land this thing Rev.

 

[Howie]

So if he did this for you there must have been something about you he didn't hate then right? Or there must have been something of value about you he wanted to keep? So are you saying other people don't have the value that you have? How therefore can you love your neighbor as yourself?

Now the above I believe is a really good question. Something for all Calvinists to ask themselves. The point is you can't love your neighbor as yourself.

Why not?

I don't believe God hates sinners but lets go with what you're saying.

Ps 5:5 says He does.

A substitution of Love needed to occur. But that's a change then. And what did you say his motivation to do so was? LOVE. So God could NOT have hated the sinner! The way out of your dilemmas Rev is just acknowledge once and for all that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. There's no other place for you to land this thing Rev.

Rom 9:13.

 

[ReverendRV]

So if he did this for you there must have been something about you he didn't hate then right? Or there must have been something of value about you he wanted to keep? So are you saying other people don't have the value that you have? How therefore can you love your neighbor as yourself?

Now the above I believe is a really good question. Something for all Calvinists to ask themselves. The point is you can't love your neighbor as yourself. I don't think within a Calvinists inner consciousness they can consider other people of equal value.


I don't believe God hates sinners but lets go with what you're saying. A substitution of Love needed to occur. But that's a change then. And what did you say his motivation to do so was? LOVE. So God could NOT have hated the sinner! The way out of your dilemmas Rev is just acknowledge once and for all that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. There's no other place for you to land this thing Rev.

Nah, there's nothing about me he didn't Hate; everything 'of ME' was a filthy rag...

As other Posters often raise, some of us just don't know how bad off we were. There is no one who does Good, no, not One. I don't want to be like Guys, like Paul Washer, who always preach how Sinful we were/are; but it's just got to be done. Martin Lloyd-Jones preached, "But God", over and over again; week after week. An Elder finally asked him how long Lloyd-Jones was he going to preach on "But God"? He responded by saying, 'Until you get that it's BY God'. I paraphrased it; but so many Posters need to 'get it'...

 

[preacher4truth]

Very good point.

No my friend, it is errant laden.