rather than just run away
Is Calvinism Manichean?
- Thread starter valtteri21
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guest1
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Plus the commonplace Tu quoque fallacy . It’s the most popular one amongst them . It’s what Augustine did with Pelagius. It’s the old apple not falling far from the tree principle and the birds of a feather concept .
Any excuse or method to avoid actually dealing with objections
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guest1
Guest
It’s what happens when one cannot defend their beliefs and their errors are expose . It become personal with attacking .
Predestined
Well-known member
My Objections to Calvinism ...Deal With it!
First on the hit list would be Unconditional Election.
They don't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election. And would like us to believe that "election" occurs before you are born. So for the Calvinist, the elect are never not saved. Even prior to coming to faith they are never in danger of eternal condemnation. You just can't get more sanctimonious than that.
And it sure doesn't jive with the word of God:
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath." Eph 2:1-3 and "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" Eph 2:8
Their view of election is also inconsistent with what Paul told the Philippian jailor who asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't reply, "If you're elect you're already saved", but rather said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Acts 16:30,31 Showing that one's salvation is not conditioned upon some hypothetical unconditional "elect" status, but rather it is conditioned upon faith. A ton of such verses support this view and have been posted on this forum that they have never dealt with.
Number 2 on the hit parade Is Total Depravity
They actually believe in "total depravity", which by their definition includes the inability to refrain from evil. And yet, throw the concept of "justice" out the window, and still hold that God hold's people accountable for things over which they have no control. And not only with respect to behavior, but they also hold the prejudicial concept of imputed sin whereby people are reckoned guilty of the sins of their ancestors. While the Scriptures declare that God is just, the they worship a different god, an unjust god.
Cop-out # 3 Is their myopic view of “Sovereignty”
The god of Calvinism is viewed as incapable of creating free will creatures. He is limited to creating mere puppets. I often refer to Calvinistic theology as a puppet theology. Their god's sovereignty incorporates controlling every particular thing. That being the case, their god controls people's behavior. When people sin, which they admit is not under their control, it is their god who is sinning, and yet condemns his puppets. Apparently, their god, playing with his puppets, pretends his puppets sin, while in fact he knows that he is the one doing so as the puppet master.
I saved the worst for last... #4 The Insufficiency of the Atonement
That would be their view that Jesus' death on the cross as insufficient atonement for sin, but rather his righteous life was imputed to the elect. Their god pretends that the elect lived Christ's righteous lifestyle, never sinning, rather than the view that Christ's death pays for their sins. This one is so bad I'm going to dig a bit deeper into it. It is why many are known as four-pointers—holding to TUIP, but denying L, limited atonement.
They can dress this one up and make it look good, but does it work? Is limited atonement biblical? Is it consistent with the love of God shown in Jesus Christ and expressed in the New Testament many times in many ways as seen in John 3:16?
Limited atonement is the false idea that God selects only some individuals to be saved. Nowhere is this supported anywhere in the Bible.
Salvation is a free gift made available by the grace of God to all. We are all sinners in need of salvation.
Jesus teaches that the only condition for salvation is that we have genuine faith in Him as Son of God and Savior. Once again John 3:16 is an excellent verse that supports salvation that is based on faith. It's up to each of as individuals to either accept or reject salvation.
And just how would “limited atonement” fit into this verse?
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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guest1
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David1701
Well-known member
I'm going to make no bones about this. You know better. This is deliberate deception. You KNOW that those whom you call "Calvinists" believe in, and teach, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. You also know that we believe in God's election.
Eph. 1:3-6 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I'm not even going to read the rest of your post, since this is enough to make me think that there is demonic activity on this board, through people who have opened a door in their hearts to the Enemy.
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guest1
Guest
OK but why tell me to deal with it?
Yes, it's been rather obvious
Predestined
Well-known member
I was going along with your post. Backing you up as in "I got your 6". Team Truth. Your on point and I'm back-up.
Predestined
Well-known member
That's why I'm back-up for Team Truth. Personal attacks are the bait of Satan. I avoid the trap.
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guest1
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Theo1689
Well-known member
Correct. The Bible doesn't tea "salvation "by faith".
It teaches salvation by GRACE, THROUGH faith:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
We are saved "by" grace. That is the CAUSE.
We are saved "through "faith". That is the MEANS. That is HOW God chooses to save the elect.
Rom. 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
Rom. 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom. 11:20 ... but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
Gal. 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,
Gal. 3:14 ... so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal. 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Eph. 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—...
Phil. 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ,...
Col. 2:12 ... you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God,...
2Tim. 3:15 ... able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Heb. 6:12 ...but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
1Pet. 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ...
They're not mutually exclusive.
We are saved by grace.
We are saved through election.
We are saved through faith.
Yes, we would like you to believe the BIBLE:
Eph. 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Rev. 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
God chose/elected us before the foundation of the world, and wrote our names in the book of life of the Lamb.
This is false.
"Election" is not synonymous with "salvation".
Election LEADS to salvation.
Election happened from before the foundation of the world.
Salvation is achieved during our lifetime, at regeneration.
That's not "sanctimonious".
But thank you for the gratuitous insult.
Certainly it does.
This is 100% perfectly consistent with Calvinism.
This is a silly argument.
It's also a misrepresentation of Calvinism.
Election does NOT mean, "already saved".
Sorry, it doesn't "show" any such thing.
Acts 16 doesn't mention "election". So it neither confirms nor denies the doctrine.
We can't (and don't) cite that passage to "prove" election.
And you can't cite that passage to "deny" election.
Wrong.
"conditioned upon faith" is NOWHERE to be found in Scripture.
Faith is not our "condition" to "save ourselves".
It is the "litmus test" by which we can KNOW we are saved:
You know, you remind me of those with "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (TDS), which goes right along with the left's "cancel culture". If you don't like one thing about a person (eg. they wore blackface in the 80's), then they are "cancelled", 100% pure evil, and you can't agree with ANYTHING about them.
Your hatred of Calvinism is so extreme, that you find yourself forced to disagree with EVERYTHING it teaches.
If total depravity is false, then why did the Arminian Remonstrants agree with the Reformers that it is true and Biblical?
Nope. We do NOT "throw the concept of 'justice' out the window".
That is YOUR errant rationalization, not our belief.
God has written the Law in our hearts, and so we KNOW when we sin that we are guilty, so God is PERFECTLY just in condemning any and every one of us.
This is not a Biblical argument, it is a rationalization from a sinner.
More gratuitous insults ("prejudicial concept").
And no, we do NOT believe "people are reckoned gulty of the sins of their ancestor". We believe people are reckoned guilty of their OWN sins.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
I guess YOU'RE the one who rejects Scripture.
No, we worship a perfectly just God.
But thank you for the continued insult and misrepresentation.
"Cop-out"? "myopic"?
Thank you for yet more gratuitous insults.
Another MISREPRESENTATION.
We don't believe God "can't" create free will creatures.
We believe God DOESN'T create free will creatures.
Do you understand the differencd between "can't" and "doesn't"?
And we don't believe that men are "puppets".
So thank you for yet ANOTHER gratuitous insult.
Yep, that would be the God of the Bible (Gen. 50:20, Isa. 10:5-7, Acts. 4:27-28). And I understand why the Bible is rejected by the pride of heretics who worship "free will" instead of the God of the Bible.
Again, this is not a Biblical argument, it is a biased and self-serving rationalization by a sinner.
(to be continued...)
Theo1689
Well-known member
(... continuing ...)
And of course, this is a MISREPRESENTATION of Calvinism.
This is where the critics play word games and use language to invent false narratives. The choice of "insufficient" is necessarily derogatory and negative, as if God "failed" in doing something. The FACT of the matter is that Jesus' death on the cross was SUFFICIENT for it's purpose, which was to save HIS PEOPLE, HIS SHEEP, and no one else.
Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
If God had wanted to save "every single individual", He certainly could have done so without any effort. But the Bible says that isn't what His purpose was:
Rom. 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom. 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Wrong again.
And once again, thank you for the further insults of "their god", and "pretends".
The True God of the Bible, when He sees the elect, He sees them through the righteousness of Christ, not that the elect "lived" it themselves":
Phil. 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Looks limited to me...
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
This is unBiblical.
Again, faith is not a "condition" for salvation, it is the MEANS by which God saves HIS peole. And faith is a GIFT from God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.), which He only gives to the elect. See John 10:26 and Acts 13:48 above.
The concept of "accepting or rejecting salvation" is NOWHERE found in Scripture.
Just as the idea that "God gave all men a free will to choose to believe" is NOWHERE found in Scripture.
Why do you waste everyone's time asking the same question over and over, when you refuse to accept the answer?
"ours sins" refers the sins of the Jewish Christians, and "the sins of the whole world" refers to the elect among the Gentiles (and interestingly enough, the concept of "elect" is prominent in 1 John!). The whole theme of the NT is that salvation wasn't limited to just Jews, but that Gentiles would be saved as well.
Now, I can understand why you think your interpretation is true, but that doesn't make it the correct interpretation. And I beileve your severe bias against Calvinism is negatively affecting your judgment.
And of course, this is a MISREPRESENTATION of Calvinism.
This is where the critics play word games and use language to invent false narratives. The choice of "insufficient" is necessarily derogatory and negative, as if God "failed" in doing something. The FACT of the matter is that Jesus' death on the cross was SUFFICIENT for it's purpose, which was to save HIS PEOPLE, HIS SHEEP, and no one else.
Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
If God had wanted to save "every single individual", He certainly could have done so without any effort. But the Bible says that isn't what His purpose was:
Rom. 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom. 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Wrong again.
And once again, thank you for the further insults of "their god", and "pretends".
The True God of the Bible, when He sees the elect, He sees them through the righteousness of Christ, not that the elect "lived" it themselves":
Phil. 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Looks limited to me...
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
This is unBiblical.
Again, faith is not a "condition" for salvation, it is the MEANS by which God saves HIS peole. And faith is a GIFT from God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.), which He only gives to the elect. See John 10:26 and Acts 13:48 above.
The concept of "accepting or rejecting salvation" is NOWHERE found in Scripture.
Just as the idea that "God gave all men a free will to choose to believe" is NOWHERE found in Scripture.
Why do you waste everyone's time asking the same question over and over, when you refuse to accept the answer?
"ours sins" refers the sins of the Jewish Christians, and "the sins of the whole world" refers to the elect among the Gentiles (and interestingly enough, the concept of "elect" is prominent in 1 John!). The whole theme of the NT is that salvation wasn't limited to just Jews, but that Gentiles would be saved as well.
Now, I can understand why you think your interpretation is true, but that doesn't make it the correct interpretation. And I beileve your severe bias against Calvinism is negatively affecting your judgment.
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guest1
Guest
That’s like asking is the spirit of truth on my team ?
Is Jesus on your team ?
Is the Father on your team ?
What kind of question is that ?
HealTheLand
Active member
if we place anything (too much) before God / Christ. we are possibly not following the Spirit ...
theologies seem to be like this... interpretations are not God (but thought-systems of Mankind)
Ok got you
ReverendRV
Well-known member
You know me, I'm always going somewhere...
God's Word is Truth, and is on Team Truth. All on Team Truth agree that no one can come to God until the Father Draws him...