Isaiah 46:10 teaches omnipotence not foreknowledge - Calvinists?

[Roger Thornhill]

Calvinists say that God has foreknowledge of the future but God Himself says He declares the things not done because He will do it.

That's omnipotence not foreknowledge.

I've not gotten an answer to this except for some merely saying it ain't so!

A scripture would be helpful, or is Calvinism reliant on philosophy?

King James VersionIsaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[Reformedguy]

Calvinists say that God has foreknowledge of the future but God Himself says He declares the things not done because He will do it.

That's omnipotence not foreknowledge.

I've not gotten an answer to this except for some merely saying it ain't so!

A scripture would be helpful, or is Calvinism reliant on philosophy?

King James VersionIsaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

That's foreknowledge. LOL How do you declare things not yet done if you don't know what they are?

 

[CookedGoose]

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He declares the things not done because He will do it.

Doesn't say "because".
It doesn't say His doing them is the CAUSE of the declaration.
That's your theory, not Isaiah's.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

That's foreknowledge. LOL How do you declare things not yet done if you don't know what they are?

Simple. He is the Creator. How did He create the giraffe if He did not know what it was?

 

[Roger Thornhill]

Doesn't say "because".
It doesn't say His doing them is the CAUSE of the declaration.
That's your theory, not Isaiah's.

Yes it does. Read the next verse too:
American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

He has His purpose and He does it. He brings it to pass.

That's cause and effect pure and simple.

 

[CookedGoose]

Yes it does. Read the next verse too:
American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

He has His purpose and He does it. He brings it to pass.

That's cause and effect pure and simple.

I hate to keep bringing up the same point, but you haven't addressed this simple fact Roger.
It needs to be addressed.

He can't declare it NOW without FOREKNOWING He will do it in the future.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I hate to keep bringing up the same point, but you haven't addressed this simple fact Roger.
It needs to be addressed.

He can't declare it NOW without FOREKNOWING He will do it in the future.

Sure He can.

He is the Creator. How did He create the giraffe if He did not know what it was?

 

[CookedGoose]

He can't declare it NOW without FOREKNOWING He will do it in the future.

Sure He can.

Not correct Roger.
He can only declare it now if He foreknows He will do it.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

Not correct Roger.
He can only declare it now if He foreknows He will do it.

You really limit God to such a great extent that He can't do what you can do?

God is a person with feelings too. You were created in His image.

For example:
King James VersionGenesis 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He also felt delight with His creations.
King James VersionProverbs 8:30

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

 

[CrowCross]

Calvinists say that God has foreknowledge of the future but God Himself says He declares the things not done because He will do it.

That's omnipotence not foreknowledge.

I've not gotten an answer to this except for some merely saying it ain't so!

A scripture would be helpful, or is Calvinism reliant on philosophy?

King James VersionIsaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Don't they kinda go hand in hand?

I see God as way above our 3D+time "realm"....where history has already happened for God and He has the ability to step in and out of our time line whenever he wants.

 

[Howie]

Calvinists say that God has foreknowledge of the future but God Himself says He declares the things not done because He will do it.

That's omnipotence not foreknowledge.

That's opinion.

I've not gotten an answer to this except for some merely saying it ain't so!

?

A scripture would be helpful, or is Calvinism reliant on philosophy?

Back at you.

King James VersionIsaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

That says God has determined what will occur.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I

Don't they kinda go hand in hand?

I see God as way above our 3D+time "realm"....where history has already happened for God and He has the ability to step in and out of our time line whenever he wants.

I've heard some believe that. I've never seen it it the Bible.

But even so, even if it already happened didn't it happen the first time? Why can't this be the first time?

If Jesus already gave his life for our sins before the 1st century then why did he need to do it again?

He gave his life once for all time.

Shades of Groundhog Day! ?

 

[Roger Thornhill]

That's opinion.


?

Well yes, but God said it:
American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Back at you.

American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

That says God has determined what will occur.

Yes, but He said I will also do it.

He determined what would occur because He would do it.

That's omnipotence.

 

[CrowCross]

I

I've heard some believe that. I've never seen it it the Bible.

It's there....just doesn't present it in our dimensional terms and language.
Jesus appearing in a room out of thin air shows some sort of extra dimension from which he came from...Ex-nihilo creation is yet another.

But even so, even if it already happened didn't it happen the first time? Why can't this be the first time?

Why can't it not be? You keep looking at God through the human lens.

If Jesus already gave his life for our sins before the 1st century then why did he need to do it again?

Because the event was the one and the same.

He gave his life once for all time.

Shades of Groundhog Day! ?

Are you hinting that God doesn't know the future? he was guessing when He wrote prophecy?

 

[Roger Thornhill]

It's there....just doesn't present it in our dimensional terms and language.

The Bible is God speaking to us and instructing us.
If you get your information from some other source how do you know it's not demons?

Jesus appearing in a room out of thin air shows some sort of extra dimension from which he came from...Ex-nihilo creation is yet another.

When American Indians saw the match they thought or was magic. Miracles can be some sort of higher science. No I don't believe in extraterrestrial life ?

Why can't it not be? You keep looking at God through the human lens.

Through the Bible.

Because the event was the one and the same.

Yes, and it happened about 2000 years ago. Why complicate it with science fiction?

Are you hinting that God doesn't know the future? he was guessing when He wrote prophecy?

Not at all. He has a purpose and He makes it happen. That's what scripture says.

Why add human philosophy to it?

 

[CrowCross]

The Bible is God speaking to us and instructing us.
If you get your information from some other source how do you know it's not demons?

Are you saying the perception of dimensions above our 3D + time is of demons?

When American Indians saw the match they thought or was magic. Miracles can be some sort of higher science. No I don't believe in extraterrestrial life ?

An angel is an example of extraterestrial life.

Through the Bible.

When you read the bible are you saying you are not bias free?

Yes, and it happened about 2000 years ago. Why complicate it with science fiction?

Christ was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)....yet also slain 2,000 yers ago. It's not science fiction. It's biblical fact.

Not at all. He has a purpose and He makes it happen. That's what scripture says.

I don't disagree.

Why add human philosophy to it?

You add human philosophy when you argue there is only 3 dimensions + time.

 

[Theo1689]

Christ was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)

Rev. 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)​

​

Rev. 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. (NET)​

​

Rev. 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB)​

​

Rev. 13:8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. (HCSB)​

Why would I hold to a theology ("Christ was slain from the foundation of the world") that is not only historically inaccurate, but is not found in any version of the Bible that mainstream Christians use daily?

The problem in this verse is that on its face, it is unclear whether "from the foundation of the world" modifies "name written", or whether it modifies, "lamb slain".

The KJV translators chose, "lamb slain".
But Rev, 17:8 confirms to us that "names written" is what is modifed by "foundation of the world".

 

[Howie]

Well yes, but God said it:
American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.




American Standard VersionIsaiah 46:11
calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.



Yes, but He said I will also do it.

He determined what would occur because He would do it.

That's omnipotence.

It is both: God's predetermined plan accomplished by His authority and power.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

It is both: God's predetermined plan accomplished by His authority and power.

I agree.

What I object to is the philosophical idea that everything has already happened in some sort of science fiction scenario.

That goes beyond what is written.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

CrowCross said:
It's there....just doesn't present it in our dimensional terms and language.

Roger Thornhill said:
The Bible is God speaking to us and instructing us.

If you get your information from some other source how do you know it's not demons?

Are you saying the perception of dimensions above our 3D + time is of demons?

No, I'm obviously saying that the true source of spiritual instruction is the Bible.

An angel is an example of extraterestrial life.

When you read the bible are you saying you are not bias free?

Christ was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)....yet also slain 2,000 yers ago. It's not science fiction. It's biblical fact.

Well at least in the KJV. Are you KJV only?


American Standard VersionRevelation 13:8
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain

I don't disagree.

You add human philosophy when you argue there is only 3 dimensions + time.

I did not commit to any particular theory. I do object to these theories being placed on the level of the Bible and am seeing them elevated above it