I see nothing that relates to the on-going discussion about the nature of the messiah and fulfilled prophecies, so I will assume you have abandoned your claims in that respect. I think that is a wise decision.Well, if you prefer to spend your eternity in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, I suppose you're more than welcome to do so.
Thankfully, Jesus said he came to save sinners.
Psa 18:43-44 WEB 43 You have delivered me from the strivings of the people. You have made me the head of the nations. A people whom I have not known shall serve me. 44 As soon as they hear of me they shall obey me. The foreigners shall submit themselves to me.
Psa 22:27 WEB All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.
Psa 46:10 WEB “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth.”
Psa 47:1 WEB Oh clap your hands, all you nations. Shout to God with the voice of triumph!
Isa 52:10 WEB Yahweh has made his holy arm bare in the eyes of all the nations. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Isa 49:6 WEB Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”
Isa 52:15 WEB so he will cleanse many nations. Kings will shut their mouths at him; for they will see that which had not been told them, and they will understand that which they had not heard.
Isa 66:18 WEB “For I know their works and their thoughts. The time comes that I will gather all nations and languages, and they will come, and will see my glory.
Joh 3:16 WEB For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Mat 28:19 WEB Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
This goes on for quite a while, but if you deem yourself unworthy of eternal life, just step away, and never again respond to our posts regarding Jesus and eternal life.
You can go live whatever life you want and upon your death, you can "live" with the awareness you screwed yourself and then at the great white throne judgment, you can explain it to YHVH.
Jesus fulfilled over 300 old testament prophecies
- Thread starter SteveB
- Start date
I see nothing that relates to the on-going discussion about the nature of the messiah and fulfilled prophecies, so I will assume you have abandoned your claims in that respect. I think that is a wise decision.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Yep, I've noticed that too. I told him from the start that he couldn't defend his points, and instead just straight copied "perceived" prophecies without knowing how to justify them.
SteveB
Well-known member
Why, are you too lazy to do your own investigation?
I thought atheists were intelligent people who knew how to think, and know the Bible better than Jesus followers.
I've included all 365 references mentioned in the op.
You're a smart feller, read for yourself.
For starters,
The old testament prophecy which states his existence is from eternity past.
Micah 5:2
The fulfillment in the new testament, stating He is the I AM.
John 8:58
Seriously. Read for yourself.
I even created a pdf document for you to keep handy for future, personal research.
Post in thread 'Jesus fulfilled over 300 old testament prophecies' https://forums.carm.org/threads/jesus-fulfilled-over-300-old-testament-prophecies.18910/post-1470925
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
It's obvious you're lazy and just cut-and-pasted verses without investigating yourself, SteveB.
Interesting choice. The Hebrew term from days of old, mei olam, is also used in other verses.
Isa 63:9,11; Amos 9:11, Micah 7:14, and Malachi 3:4. None of these verses translate mei olam as eternity, but as days of old.
What we are being told in Malachi 5:2 is the origin of Messiah comes from Jesse and David, days of old. We know that Jesse and David came from Bethlehem, 1 Samuel 17:58.
Nice try but you utterly failed.
Seriously, you should study this some more.
@Jewjitzu has already shown how you have twisted the prophecy to mean something it does not.
The other side of the issue is the evidence that the supposed prophecy was fulfilled. Why should we believe Jesus has existed from eternity past? Just because the Bible say he does?
Remember, the fulfilment of prophecies is to suppose to prove Jesus is God, but you have to assume that Jesus is God to think that this supposed prophecy was fulfilled. It is the usual circular logic you always use - apparently without even realising you are doing it.
SteveB
Well-known member
That is your opinion.
Yet we read
Heb 1:1-3 WEB 1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds. 3 His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, who, when he had by himself purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Yep.
YHVH is only One, as it is written in Deuteronomy 6:4.
Shma Israel
YHVH elohenu
YHVH echad.
so, perhaps you can explain to me why YHVH says "let us..." in Genesis 1:26, and 11:7?
Then, who was He referring to in Isaiah 6:8 when he said- who will go for us...?
Who is the us, and our?
Those are plural terms.
Furthermore, I noticed in Genesis 2, God refers to Adam and Eve as being one flesh. In looking at the Hebrew, I noticed that the word for one is echad.
I notice the same thing in Genesis 11, where God says the people are as one people.... echad.
So, why did God choose the word Echad, and not Yachid?
Which is curious because YHVH says we'll bow to Jesus, and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
say who, you?
yep.
That is your opinion.
Hi clear.
I'm Steve.
Until the NT is brought to bear. At which point, it's clear Jesus is exactly who it is.
Cantilation...
You mean the diacritical marks making up the vowels?
I find it curious that you think it's special, especially when they state in the article--
They were introduced by the Masoretes around the end of the first millenium of the common era.
Seems like they're a relatively new thing in comparison to the age of scripture itself.
Genesis 1:1-3 WLC_TR — בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ וְהָאָ֗רֶץ הָיְתָ֥ה תֹ֨הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י תְהֹ֑ום וְר֣וּחַ אֱלֹהִ֔ים מְרַחֶ֖פֶת עַל־פְּנֵ֥י הַמָּֽיִם׃ וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור וַֽיְהִי־אֹֽור׃
As for singing scripture, yeah. I've only ever seen that on TV and movies where a subplot was including a synagogue and service.
Where I come from, we do sing various Psalms in worship.
But singing scripture is not done during instruction.
Yeah, seeing that the cantilation, taamei ha-miqra, are an addition, a good 1500 years after the scriptures were originally written, you're not actually helping yourself here. Or me for that matter.
Father.
of course not.
This is how I know it's merely your opinion and not trustworthy.
you seem confused.
Nobody ever says the Father bows to Jesus.
It's plainly stated,
Every knee will bow.
Last I checked, YHVH the Father doesn't have knees.
I bet you are. Which is why it's known as opinion.
so, you're keeping all 613 commandments?
without fail?
according to Romans 8, the only way to satisfy the righteous ordinances of the Law is to think on spiritual things.
i suppose it's a good thing that Jewish Jesus followers believe otherwise.
of THAT I am absolutely certain.
which begs the question of why YHVH told Moses,
Exo 3:15 WEB God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.
exactly! YHVH the Son.
you assume that Jesus is ONLY human.
scripture shows he's more than merely human.
Apparently you're having a problem.
that is opinion.
Psalms 40 says otherwise.
according to Ezekiel 36:25, YHVH has freed, and is continuing to free me from idolatry.
are you sure?
Because based on your entire collection of posts throughout the forum, it's pretty clear that you have a self-exalted view of your opinions.
Oh but it is. Just because you don't like or agree with it doesn't mean it’s not. It just means exactly what YHVH says...
Isa 6:9-10 WEB 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people, ‘You hear indeed, but don’t understand. You see indeed, but don’t perceive.’ 10 Make the heart of this people fat. Make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed.”
He is.
It has been since it was written.
Right.
I'm not.
Jesus isn't ANOTHER/OTHER god.
There's only one God. His name is YHVH and he is Echad.
furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 32:17, the other gods are demons. I'm not particularly interested in bowing to demons. I like YHVH exactly as he is.
I don't.
I believe Jesus is the Messiah of Israel, and saviour of the entire human race. Exactly as YHVH told Abraham in Genesis 12:3.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Facts.
False, the prophets of old never said anything about a son's involvement in creation.
True, grammatically one person one God. Just like Neh 9:6 says, absolutely alone.
Sure. If you read Gen 1:1-25, you'll see God spoke to creation and it was. Likewise, God spoke to the water, earth, air, used to create man and gave him a physical and spiritual image.
We'll, angels are messengers so God spoke to them.
Isaiah.
Answered above.
Rotfl... because echad can be used to be singular or plural, Eccl 4:11.
Actually, He doesn't. The original Isa 45:23 doesn't include Jesus.
See above.
Facts.
It's clear he's nothing but a man.
Actually, not. Cantillations were part of the oral Torah for sometime. So much so that Jesus references them in Matthew 5:17-20. Not the least jot or tittle.
It isn't just singing, it's reading with the grammar punctuations.
See above. There were several versions of the cantillations with the final version settled on by the Masoretes. Even your Bibles try to follow their grammar.
Wrong. It means my father. You show you haven't been reading.
If you look above, you aren't trustworthy for anything.
Follow the logic. God doesn't bow.
You've shown it already. You don't know what Avi means, let alone mei olam.
I'm not obligated on all 613.
The law is spiritual. Those that obey are spiritual.
Actually, it makes them apostates as Paul was.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
You should check again.
"YHWH". No mention YHWH the Son. That's pretty pathetic of you.
No such thing. He shares His name with no one.
Facts.
False.
Rotfl... You can't read the basics, like Avi.
Fact. The everlasting God doesn't die. It's inherently in His name.
No mention of Jesus.
Not when you pray and bow to another.
As you do of yours.
Yep, based on context this is speaking of Isaiah and King Ahaz's time.
Yes, the Father is.
Jesus is another god.
If you look at the grammar YHWH is a singular name and so is echad in that context.
Then when you bow to false gods like Jesus...
Zero mention of God becoming a man.
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SteveB
Well-known member
Yep.
Fact that it's your opinion.
Not questioning that on any level.
So now all the Biblical prophets are false prophets?
Yet he says...
Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.
Who is the us and our stated in those passages?
Really? So angels were involved in assisting God and humans are in the likeness and image of both God and angels?
That makes no sense in light of psalm 8.
we were made a little lower than the angels, and crowned with glory and honor.
So, how does that work?
i have been. For the past nearly 47 years now.Actually, He doesn't. The original Isa 45:23 doesn't include Jesus.
See above.
Facts.
It's clear he's nothing but a man.
Actually, not. Cantillations were part of the oral Torah for sometime. So much so that Jesus references them in Matthew 5:17-20. Not the least jot or tittle.
It isn't just singing, it's reading with the grammar punctuations.
See above. There were several versions of the cantillations with the final version settled on by the Masoretes. Even your Bibles try to follow their grammar.
Wrong. It means my father. You show you haven't been reading.
If you look above, you aren't trustworthy for anything.
Follow the logic.
Never said he did.
Humans will, and they'll bow to Jesus, and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
You're included.
we all are.
so you lied to me when you previously said Avi means Father.You've shown it already. You don't know what Avi means, let alone mei olam.
ok. Yet one more reason why you're not a trustworthy person.
Apparently nobody else knows what mei olam means either. I've checked several Jewish sites, and while the words appear in the results on Google, they aren't on the actual websites.
So, I'm acquainted with Olam.
In Psalm 90, Moses refers to YHVH as being from "everlasting to everlasting You are God."
in Micah 5:2 it too refers to the King as being from everlasting.
Last I checked, only YHVH is from everlasting. And since the King is born in Bethlehem, I'd say that YHVH becomes a man.
Mic 5:2 HiSB
וְאַתָּ֞ה ve·'at·Tah you
בֵּֽית־ beit- לֶ֣חֶם Le·chem But thou Bethlehem
אֶפְרָ֗תָה 'ef·Ra·tah, Ephratah צָעִיר֙ tza·'Ir [though] thou be little לִֽהְיוֹת֙ lih·yOt to be among בְּאַלְפֵ֣י be·'al·Fei among the thousands יְהוּדָ֔ה ye·hu·Dah, of Judah מִמְּךָ֙ mi·me·Cha at לִ֣י li יֵצֵ֔א ye·Tze, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth לִֽהְי֥וֹת lih·Yot become מוֹשֵׁ֖ל mo·Shel unto me [that is] to be ruler בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל be·Yis·ra·'El; in Israel וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו u·mo·tza·'o·Tav whose goings forth מִקֶּ֖דֶם mik·Ke·dem [have been] from of old
מִימֵ֥י mi·Mei the days עוֹלָֽם׃ o·Lam. of eternity
mimie olam.
days of Eternity.
How convenient for you.
According to Leviticus 18:5, the only way to live is by keeping YHVH's law.
Lev 18:5 Tanakh-1917 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.
It's a curious thing about this.
James tells us,
Jas 2:8-13 WEB 8 However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as men who are to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
If you violate just one law, you have broken the whole thing.
So, are you sure about that?
So, how many are you obligated to keep? 611? 600, maybe, 500?
it's interesting that the rabbi who wrote 13 of the 27 documents in the NT says that the only way to satisfy the righteous ordinances is to focus our thinking on spiritual things.
Then you'll have heaven all to yourself.
SteveB
Well-known member
Why, didn't you understand your own comment?
I'm absolutely certain that you believe what you said.
Apparently you're ignoring Micah 5:2.
The only way someone can be eternal is to be YHVH.
So, for the eternal God to be born in Bethlehem and be a ruler, whose days are from eternal, they have to be YHVH.
As he's born, it's clear that he's YHVH the Son.
he shares his glory with one!
Isa 48:11 Tanakh-1917 For Mine own sake, for Mine own sake, will I do it; For how should it be profaned? And My glory will I not give to another.
I'm not seeing anything that says name...
Throughout the entire Hebrew Bible, I don't find a single instance where Kabode is translated as name.
Everything is translated glory.
so far your facts are having a problem. So I'd say you're stating your opinions.
but you've repeatedly failed to corroborate this word.
Not according to you.
Never said YHVH the Father did die.
the Son however did. Isaiah even stated so.
Yep.
Actually, in Hebrew, it's Yeshua.
Which is curious. I found a Hebrew prayer which has his name included.
so you're telling me that I'm not allowed to bow to YHVH?
nope.
my hope is in YHVH and his written word.
so Isaiah didn't understand, his heart was dull, dumb, and his mind blinded?
Wow. I guess that means that YHVH was putting his trust in an unreliable servant.
Indeed!
nope.
There's only one God. His name is YHVH.
So, YHVH doesn't actually know what he's doing by applying the word in it's different contexts?If you look at the grammar YHWH is a singular name and so is echad in that context.
Yeah. You keep saying things I don't think you actually understand.
So, the eternal God being born in Bethlehem to become ruler over Israel is true?
Mic 5:2 HiSB וְאַתָּ֞ה ve·'at·Tah you בֵּֽית־ beit- לֶ֣חֶם Le·chem But thou Bethlehem אֶפְרָ֗תָה 'ef·Ra·tah, Ephratah צָעִיר֙ tza·'Ir [though] thou be little לִֽהְיוֹת֙ lih·yOt to be among בְּאַלְפֵ֣י be·'al·Fei among the thousands יְהוּדָ֔ה ye·hu·Dah, of Judah מִמְּךָ֙ mi·me·Cha at לִ֣י li יֵצֵ֔א ye·Tze, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth לִֽהְי֥וֹת lih·Yot become מוֹשֵׁ֖ל mo·Shel unto me [that is] to be ruler בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל be·Yis·ra·'El; in Israel וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו u·mo·tza·'o·Tav whose goings forth מִקֶּ֖דֶם mik·Ke·dem [have been] from of old מִימֵ֥י mi·Mei the days עוֹלָֽם׃ o·Lam. of eternity
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
I understand what I said.
Yes.
No, it's evident you don't understand that the Hebrew term mei olam, translated as days of eternity, really is days of old. I gave you evidence of that already.
It doesn't say eternal unless you want to translate all other references to mei olam as eternal too?
God isn't born. That's sill
Psalm 83:18
That they may know that it is Thou alone whose name is the LORD, The Most High over all the earth.
The Hebrew is clear only one person uses the name YHWH. Alone is singular.
Nope.
I didn't say it did.
I've stated facts.
That's false.
Then God can't die. Period.
Not in mine.
Not worshipping a man.
You're distorting the word.
He understood the context of his time.
No, just your unreliable interpretation.
Right, the name isn't shared with two others.
Psalm 73:25
Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And beside Thee I desire none upon earth.
There aren't 3 in heaven we should pray to, SteveB. That's idolatry.
No, you don't.
You're the one struggling with basic Hebrew.
God isn't mentioned in the verse.
You fool. Mei olam means days of old. This has already been given to you.
Isa 63:9,11; Amos 9:11, Micah 7:14, and Malachi 3:4. None of these verses translate mei olam as eternity, but as days of old.
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Just facts.
No mention of the son creating in Tanakh. Prove it to me.
You're definitely false and your teachers false.
And yet you don't understand. The physical image came from the dirt, the spiritual from God. Pretty simple.
Again, God is alone as Creator, there aren't 3, Neh 9:6.
The Hebrew is clear about YHWH. One is YHWH and He is alone singularly.
Previously answered. Go look.
Yes. Angels are also creative forces, the elements, ie, Psalm 104:3-4, and follow God's commands, Psalm 103:20.
We also know destructive forces can be angels as well, Psalm 78:49.
Angels are more than spiritual beings, SteveB.
Well, if we're made from them, we are lower.
They're not made from us.
God speaks to dirt, water, air, calls them together and creates man. The 3 elements are angels as proven above.
I haven't seen evidence of that.
No, we bow to God to His glory.
No, I told you it means My Father. Don't you know the Hebrew?
Post in thread 'Jesus fulfilled over 300 old testament prophecies' https://forums.carm.org/threads/jesus-fulfilled-over-300-old-testament-prophecies.18910/post-1481068
Post#157 shows you I said Avi mean My Father. You can apologize for calling me a liar.
See above.
I've given you 5 verses with mei olam showing it means days of old.
It can mean that.
God isn't mentioned.
Already answered.
I never said otherwise.
You're a fool. Men don't keep women commandments, etc.
Torah doesn't teach that. Can you show where it says that?
I'm not responsible for Levitical, Priest, master, women, slave, commandments. Don't you know this? Was Jesus perfect in the law keeping the laws related to child birth, etc.,? You're foolish.
The law is spiritual.
I doubt it, but I don't expect to find you there.
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SteveB
Well-known member
Curious that you chose a source you claim is false, because it agrees with your presupposition.
My interlinear Hebrew-English Bible says mimei olam means days of eternity.
As I said before regarding psalm 90,
Moses said
Psa 90:2 Tanakh-1917 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
Not sure if you're familiar with interlinear Hebrew-English Bibles or not, but here are several.
BHSE+++ (PC) Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (Enhanced) - 8-Layer Interlinear
Mic 5:1 BHSE * [5:2] וְ wᵊ וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·אַתָּ֞ה ʔattˈā אַתָּה‎ | you‎ | H859‎‎ | a.er.ad‎‎ | a.er.ab‎‎ | a.er.ac‎‎ | a.er.ae‎‎ | a.er.af‎‎ | 189a‎‎ | 189‎‎ | 189b‎‎ | 189c‎‎ בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem בֵּית לֶחֶם‎ | Bethlehem‎ | H1035‎‎ | b.bp.az‎‎ | 241b‎‎ אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʔefrˈāṯā אֶפְרָתָה‎ | Ephrathah‎ | H672‎‎ | a.fh.ag‎‎ צָעִיר֙ ṣāʕîr צָעִיר‎ | little‎ | H6810‎‎ | r.dd.ac‎‎ | 1948a‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹות֙ hᵊyôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·אַלְפֵ֣י ʔalᵊfˈê אֶלֶף‎ | group of thousand‎ | H505‎‎ | a.dt.aa‎‎ | 109a‎‎ יְהוּדָ֔ה yᵊhûḏˈā יְהוּדָה‎ | Judah‎ | H3063‎‎ | j.av.ai‎‎ | 850c‎‎ מִמְּךָ֙ mimmᵊḵˌā מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎ לִ֣י lˈî לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎ יֵצֵ֔א yēṣˈē יָצָא‎ | go out‎ | H3318‎‎ | j.cq.aa‎‎ | 893‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹ֥ות hᵊyˌôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšˌēl מָשַׁל‎ | rule‎ | H4910‎‎ | m.dw.aa‎‎ | 1259‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʔˈēl יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ | Israel‎ | H3478‎‎ | u.ce.ab‎‎ | 2287a‎‎ וּ û וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw מֹוצָאָה‎ | origin‎ | H4163‎‎ | j.cq.af‎‎ | 893d‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·קֶּ֖דֶם qqˌeḏem קֶדֶם‎ | front‎ | H6924‎‎ | s.al.ad‎‎ | s.al.ab‎‎ | 1988b‎‎ | 1988a‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·ימֵ֥י ymˌê יֹום‎ | day‎ | H3117‎‎ | j.ay.aa‎‎ | 852‎‎ עֹולָֽם ʕôlˈām עֹולָם‎ | eternity‎ | H5769‎‎ | p.cz.ab‎‎ | 1631a‎‎׃
Mic 5:2 BHSEk * [5:1] וְ wᵊ וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·אַתָּ֞ה ʔattˈā אַתָּה‎ | you‎ | H859‎‎ | a.er.ad‎‎ | a.er.ab‎‎ | a.er.ac‎‎ | a.er.ae‎‎ | a.er.af‎‎ | 189a‎‎ | 189‎‎ | 189b‎‎ | 189c‎‎ בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem בֵּית לֶחֶם‎ | Bethlehem‎ | H1035‎‎ | b.bp.az‎‎ | 241b‎‎ אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʔefrˈāṯā אֶפְרָתָה‎ | Ephrathah‎ | H672‎‎ | a.fh.ag‎‎ צָעִיר֙ ṣāʕîr צָעִיר‎ | little‎ | H6810‎‎ | r.dd.ac‎‎ | 1948a‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹות֙ hᵊyôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·אַלְפֵ֣י ʔalᵊfˈê אֶלֶף‎ | group of thousand‎ | H505‎‎ | a.dt.aa‎‎ | 109a‎‎ יְהוּדָ֔ה yᵊhûḏˈā יְהוּדָה‎ | Judah‎ | H3063‎‎ | j.av.ai‎‎ | 850c‎‎ מִמְּךָ֙ mimmᵊḵˌā מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎ לִ֣י lˈî לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎ יֵצֵ֔א yēṣˈē יָצָא‎ | go out‎ | H3318‎‎ | j.cq.aa‎‎ | 893‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹ֥ות hᵊyˌôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšˌēl מָשַׁל‎ | rule‎ | H4910‎‎ | m.dw.aa‎‎ | 1259‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʔˈēl יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ | Israel‎ | H3478‎‎ | u.ce.ab‎‎ | 2287a‎‎ וּ û וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw מֹוצָאָה‎ | origin‎ | H4163‎‎ | j.cq.af‎‎ | 893d‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·קֶּ֖דֶם qqˌeḏem קֶדֶם‎ | front‎ | H6924‎‎ | s.al.ad‎‎ | s.al.ab‎‎ | 1988b‎‎ | 1988a‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·ימֵ֥י ymˌê יֹום‎ | day‎ | H3117‎‎ | j.ay.aa‎‎ | 852‎‎ עֹולָֽם ʕôlˈām עֹולָם‎ | eternity‎ | H5769‎‎ | p.cz.ab‎‎ | 1631a‎‎׃
Mic 5:1 BHSEri * [5:2] and | וְyou | אַתָּ֞הBethlehem | בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶםEphrathah | אֶפְרָ֗תָהlittle | צָעִיר֙to | לִֽbe | הְיֹות֙in | בְּgroup of thousand | אַלְפֵ֣יJudah | יְהוּדָ֔הfrom | מִמְּךָ֙to | לִ֣יgo out | יֵצֵ֔אto | לִֽbe | הְיֹ֥ותrule | מֹושֵׁ֖לin | בְּIsrael | יִשְׂרָאֵ֑לand | וּorigin | מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יוfrom | מִfront | קֶּ֖דֶםfrom | מִday | ימֵ֥יeternity | עֹולָֽם
Mic 5:2 BHSErik * [5:1] and | וְyou | אַתָּ֞הBethlehem | בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶםEphrathah | אֶפְרָ֗תָהlittle | צָעִיר֙to | לִֽbe | הְיֹות֙in | בְּgroup of thousand | אַלְפֵ֣יJudah | יְהוּדָ֔הfrom | מִמְּךָ֙to | לִ֣יgo out | יֵצֵ֔אto | לִֽbe | הְיֹ֥ותrule | מֹושֵׁ֖לin | בְּIsrael | יִשְׂרָאֵ֑לand | וּorigin | מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יוfrom | מִfront | קֶּ֖דֶםfrom | מִday | ימֵ֥יeternity | עֹולָֽם
Mic 5:2 HiSB וְאַתָּ֞ה ve·'at·Tah you בֵּֽית־ beit- לֶ֣חֶם Le·chem But thou Bethlehem אֶפְרָ֗תָה 'ef·Ra·tah, Ephratah צָעִיר֙ tza·'Ir [though] thou be little לִֽהְיוֹת֙ lih·yOt to be among בְּאַלְפֵ֣י be·'al·Fei among the thousands יְהוּדָ֔ה ye·hu·Dah, of Judah מִמְּךָ֙ mi·me·Cha at לִ֣י li יֵצֵ֔א ye·Tze, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth לִֽהְי֥וֹת lih·Yot become מוֹשֵׁ֖ל mo·Shel unto me [that is] to be ruler בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל be·Yis·ra·'El; in Israel וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו u·mo·tza·'o·Tav whose goings forth מִקֶּ֖דֶם mik·Ke·dem [have been] from of old מִימֵ֥י mi·Mei the days עוֹלָֽם׃ o·Lam. of eternity
Mic 5:2 OHB וְ wĕ wᵊ and אַתָּ֞ה ʾatā ʔattˈā you But you, בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bêytleḥem bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem Bethlehem Bethlehem אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʾeprātā ʔefrˈāṯā Ephrathah Ephrathah, צָעִיר֙ ṣāʿîr ṣāʕîr little small לִֽ li lˈi to הְיֹות֙ hĕyôt hᵊyôṯ be who are בְּ bĕ bᵊ in אַלְפֵ֣י ʾalĕpêy ʔalᵊfˈê group of thousand among the clans יְהוּדָ֔ה yĕhûdā yᵊhûḏˈā Judah of Judah, מִמְּךָ֙ mimĕkā mimmᵊḵˌā from +[you] out of you לִ֣י lî lˈî to +[me] for Me יֵצֵ֔א yēṣē yēṣˈē [he]+ go out will come forth לִֽ li lˈi to הְיֹ֥ות hĕyôt hᵊyˌôṯ be One to be מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšēl môšˌēl rule ruler בְּ bĕ bᵊ in יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʾēl yiśrāʔˈēl Israel over Israel, וּ û û and מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʾōtāyw môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw +[his] origin whose origins מִ mi mi from קֶּ֖דֶם qedem qqˌeḏem front are of old, מִ mi mi from from ימֵ֥י ymêy ymˌê day the days עֹולָֽם׃ ʿôlām ʕôlˈām eternity of eternity.
I have a total of 10 interlinear Hebrew-English Bibles. I've included 6 of them.
The concordance shows eternity.
The Thayer Definition is eternity.
So, thank you for yet another opinion.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
What source did I claim as false?
Look up what mei olam means in your source. Use the 5 verses I gave you.
Ok.
Sure. The Hebrew is translated by a Christian?Not sure if you're familiar with interlinear Hebrew-English Bibles or not, but here are several.
BHSE+++ (PC) Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (Enhanced) - 8-Layer Interlinear
www.biblesupport.com
Mic 5:1 BHSE * [5:2] וְ wᵊ וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·אַתָּ֞ה ʔattˈā אַתָּה‎ | you‎ | H859‎‎ | a.er.ad‎‎ | a.er.ab‎‎ | a.er.ac‎‎ | a.er.ae‎‎ | a.er.af‎‎ | 189a‎‎ | 189‎‎ | 189b‎‎ | 189c‎‎ בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem בֵּית לֶחֶם‎ | Bethlehem‎ | H1035‎‎ | b.bp.az‎‎ | 241b‎‎ אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʔefrˈāṯā אֶפְרָתָה‎ | Ephrathah‎ | H672‎‎ | a.fh.ag‎‎ צָעִיר֙ ṣāʕîr צָעִיר‎ | little‎ | H6810‎‎ | r.dd.ac‎‎ | 1948a‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹות֙ hᵊyôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·אַלְפֵ֣י ʔalᵊfˈê אֶלֶף‎ | group of thousand‎ | H505‎‎ | a.dt.aa‎‎ | 109a‎‎ יְהוּדָ֔ה yᵊhûḏˈā יְהוּדָה‎ | Judah‎ | H3063‎‎ | j.av.ai‎‎ | 850c‎‎ מִמְּךָ֙ mimmᵊḵˌā מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎ לִ֣י lˈî לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎ יֵצֵ֔א yēṣˈē יָצָא‎ | go out‎ | H3318‎‎ | j.cq.aa‎‎ | 893‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹ֥ות hᵊyˌôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšˌēl מָשַׁל‎ | rule‎ | H4910‎‎ | m.dw.aa‎‎ | 1259‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʔˈēl יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ | Israel‎ | H3478‎‎ | u.ce.ab‎‎ | 2287a‎‎ וּ û וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw מֹוצָאָה‎ | origin‎ | H4163‎‎ | j.cq.af‎‎ | 893d‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·קֶּ֖דֶם qqˌeḏem קֶדֶם‎ | front‎ | H6924‎‎ | s.al.ad‎‎ | s.al.ab‎‎ | 1988b‎‎ | 1988a‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·ימֵ֥י ymˌê יֹום‎ | day‎ | H3117‎‎ | j.ay.aa‎‎ | 852‎‎ עֹולָֽם ʕôlˈām עֹולָם‎ | eternity‎ | H5769‎‎ | p.cz.ab‎‎ | 1631a‎‎׃
Mic 5:2 BHSEk * [5:1] וְ wᵊ וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·אַתָּ֞ה ʔattˈā אַתָּה‎ | you‎ | H859‎‎ | a.er.ad‎‎ | a.er.ab‎‎ | a.er.ac‎‎ | a.er.ae‎‎ | a.er.af‎‎ | 189a‎‎ | 189‎‎ | 189b‎‎ | 189c‎‎ בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem בֵּית לֶחֶם‎ | Bethlehem‎ | H1035‎‎ | b.bp.az‎‎ | 241b‎‎ אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʔefrˈāṯā אֶפְרָתָה‎ | Ephrathah‎ | H672‎‎ | a.fh.ag‎‎ צָעִיר֙ ṣāʕîr צָעִיר‎ | little‎ | H6810‎‎ | r.dd.ac‎‎ | 1948a‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹות֙ hᵊyôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·אַלְפֵ֣י ʔalᵊfˈê אֶלֶף‎ | group of thousand‎ | H505‎‎ | a.dt.aa‎‎ | 109a‎‎ יְהוּדָ֔ה yᵊhûḏˈā יְהוּדָה‎ | Judah‎ | H3063‎‎ | j.av.ai‎‎ | 850c‎‎ מִמְּךָ֙ mimmᵊḵˌā מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎ לִ֣י lˈî לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎ יֵצֵ֔א yēṣˈē יָצָא‎ | go out‎ | H3318‎‎ | j.cq.aa‎‎ | 893‎‎ לִֽ lˈi לְ‎ | to‎ | l.aa.ab‎‎ | 1063‎‎·הְיֹ֥ות hᵊyˌôṯ הָיָה‎ | be‎ | H1961‎‎ | e.bf.aa‎‎ | 491‎‎ מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšˌēl מָשַׁל‎ | rule‎ | H4910‎‎ | m.dw.aa‎‎ | 1259‎‎ בְּ bᵊ בְּ‎ | in‎ | b.ab.aa‎‎ | 193‎‎·יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʔˈēl יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ | Israel‎ | H3478‎‎ | u.ce.ab‎‎ | 2287a‎‎ וּ û וְ‎ | and‎ | f.ab.aa‎‎ | 519‎‎·מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw מֹוצָאָה‎ | origin‎ | H4163‎‎ | j.cq.af‎‎ | 893d‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·קֶּ֖דֶם qqˌeḏem קֶדֶם‎ | front‎ | H6924‎‎ | s.al.ad‎‎ | s.al.ab‎‎ | 1988b‎‎ | 1988a‎‎ מִ mi מִן‎ | from‎ | H4480‎‎ | m.cl.aa‎‎ | m.co.ab‎‎ | 1212‎‎ | 1215a‎‎·ימֵ֥י ymˌê יֹום‎ | day‎ | H3117‎‎ | j.ay.aa‎‎ | 852‎‎ עֹולָֽם ʕôlˈām עֹולָם‎ | eternity‎ | H5769‎‎ | p.cz.ab‎‎ | 1631a‎‎׃
Mic 5:1 BHSEri * [5:2] and | וְyou | אַתָּ֞הBethlehem | בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶםEphrathah | אֶפְרָ֗תָהlittle | צָעִיר֙to | לִֽbe | הְיֹות֙in | בְּgroup of thousand | אַלְפֵ֣יJudah | יְהוּדָ֔הfrom | מִמְּךָ֙to | לִ֣יgo out | יֵצֵ֔אto | לִֽbe | הְיֹ֥ותrule | מֹושֵׁ֖לin | בְּIsrael | יִשְׂרָאֵ֑לand | וּorigin | מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יוfrom | מִfront | קֶּ֖דֶםfrom | מִday | ימֵ֥יeternity | עֹולָֽם
Mic 5:2 BHSErik * [5:1] and | וְyou | אַתָּ֞הBethlehem | בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶםEphrathah | אֶפְרָ֗תָהlittle | צָעִיר֙to | לִֽbe | הְיֹות֙in | בְּgroup of thousand | אַלְפֵ֣יJudah | יְהוּדָ֔הfrom | מִמְּךָ֙to | לִ֣יgo out | יֵצֵ֔אto | לִֽbe | הְיֹ֥ותrule | מֹושֵׁ֖לin | בְּIsrael | יִשְׂרָאֵ֑לand | וּorigin | מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יוfrom | מִfront | קֶּ֖דֶםfrom | מִday | ימֵ֥יeternity | עֹולָֽם
Mic 5:2 HiSB וְאַתָּ֞ה ve·'at·Tah you בֵּֽית־ beit- לֶ֣חֶם Le·chem But thou Bethlehem אֶפְרָ֗תָה 'ef·Ra·tah, Ephratah צָעִיר֙ tza·'Ir [though] thou be little לִֽהְיוֹת֙ lih·yOt to be among בְּאַלְפֵ֣י be·'al·Fei among the thousands יְהוּדָ֔ה ye·hu·Dah, of Judah מִמְּךָ֙ mi·me·Cha at לִ֣י li יֵצֵ֔א ye·Tze, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth לִֽהְי֥וֹת lih·Yot become מוֹשֵׁ֖ל mo·Shel unto me [that is] to be ruler בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל be·Yis·ra·'El; in Israel וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו u·mo·tza·'o·Tav whose goings forth מִקֶּ֖דֶם mik·Ke·dem [have been] from of old מִימֵ֥י mi·Mei the days עוֹלָֽם׃ o·Lam. of eternity
Mic 5:2 OHB וְ wĕ wᵊ and אַתָּ֞ה ʾatā ʔattˈā you But you, בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם bêytleḥem bˈêṯ-lˈeḥem Bethlehem Bethlehem אֶפְרָ֗תָה ʾeprātā ʔefrˈāṯā Ephrathah Ephrathah, צָעִיר֙ ṣāʿîr ṣāʕîr little small לִֽ li lˈi to הְיֹות֙ hĕyôt hᵊyôṯ be who are בְּ bĕ bᵊ in אַלְפֵ֣י ʾalĕpêy ʔalᵊfˈê group of thousand among the clans יְהוּדָ֔ה yĕhûdā yᵊhûḏˈā Judah of Judah, מִמְּךָ֙ mimĕkā mimmᵊḵˌā from +[you] out of you לִ֣י lî lˈî to +[me] for Me יֵצֵ֔א yēṣē yēṣˈē [he]+ go out will come forth לִֽ li lˈi to הְיֹ֥ות hĕyôt hᵊyˌôṯ be One to be מֹושֵׁ֖ל môšēl môšˌēl rule ruler בְּ bĕ bᵊ in יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל yiśrāʾēl yiśrāʔˈēl Israel over Israel, וּ û û and מֹוצָאֹתָ֥יו môṣāʾōtāyw môṣāʔōṯˌāʸw +[his] origin whose origins מִ mi mi from קֶּ֖דֶם qedem qqˌeḏem front are of old, מִ mi mi from from ימֵ֥י ymêy ymˌê day the days עֹולָֽם׃ ʿôlām ʕôlˈām eternity of eternity.
You just have me an opinion as well. Look up the five verses I gave you that use mei olam. Let me know what you find.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
By the way, here's what biblehub shows for different Bible translations. You'll find that "eternity" isn't universal for all of versions. That isn't my opinion.
Micah 5:2 - A Ruler from Bethlehem
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel--One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.
biblehub.com
As are yours. BTW, since Jesse and David both come from Bethlehem, are they eternal as well?
John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Even the NT when referencing this passage doesn't mention "eternity" with regards to Jesus' birth. Why? Because the Eternal isn't a man to be born, bleed, die.
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Tiburon
Well-known member
I have investigated and have found nothing to say that the expected Messiah will be YHVH incarnate.
Micah 5:2 according to the NIV translation, says “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
The origins refer to Israel, not a proposed messiah.
And was Jesus a ruler over Israel?
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Yes, SteveB is confused and been debunked by several people here.