Jesus is not literally in the bread and wine

balshan said:
They obviously do not follow Peter.

1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Non RCs have defended their faith and RCs have provided no defence whatsoever.
Click to expand...
The words of Jesus are not good enough for you? You don't consider the words of Jesus as a defense for our beliefs? Are your words better than Jesus?
 
balshan said:
Meaningless. It is not that simple as my op points out and you have nothing. You also prove you have nothing when you misrepresent what scripture being a final authority means but that is no surprise at all. John 16:25 shows it is figurative speech.

The bible is full of figures of speech - symbolic, personification, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, parable, allegory, literal and analogy.

I mean we are told to discern the fruit, it does not mean literal fruit. Galatian 5

Jesus says he is the door. John 10

The Holy Spirit is a dove. Mark 1

The church is the Body of Christ. Rom 12

Jesus as the bread of Life. John 6

We know these are not literal meanings, then why is it so hard for the RCC to understand the Last Supper as symbolic.
Click to expand...
I ignored your man made guidelines.
 
balshan said:
Please let us lay down some guidelines:-

1. Do not say the scriptures do not say it is symbolic, that is just pointless. No one says they are speaking symbolically. If you make that defense then you are saying Peter is Satan, Herod is a fox, Jesus is a door and we should cut off body parts (thank you to the poster that pointed that argument out) and then Mary must be a sinner.

2. Do not use the saying you have no authority because that applies to every single RC who posts on these threads. You have no authority at all.

Please try and show with reasons and evidence why we should take it as literal.

Not one of these reasons for it not being the real presence have been answered by RCs, if it is the real presence then Jesus has broken His own Word about not consuming human flesh or drinking blood.

The hypocrisy of the RCC on these matters is showing. Let us look at the facts once again:

1. The covenant comes in with the shedding of blood, this did not happen at the last supper. The death of the testator.

2. Jesus was telling the apostles what was to happen, foretelling and preparation.

3. The Passover meal is symbolic, the elements at the meal are symbolic.

4. You are ignoring other scripture verses including Luke and Hebrews. Luke tells us it is a remembrance not literal.

5. There are evidence for all other physical changes - the Nile turning to blood water could not be drunk, the water into wine it was tasted, best wine.

6. It would be breaking the commandment against drinking blood which is in both testaments.

7. Jesus did not tempt the apostles to sin, Satan is the one who tempts us not Jesus.

8. If Jesus had tempted the apostles to sin, He would no longer be spotless and that would mean he was not our saviour.

9. The rules of covenants means a sacrifice is needed, there was no sacrifices at the LS.

10. The NC is related to a sin offering in Heb. which means there has to be a real death, a real sacrifice.

11. There is no evidence for it being literal when read in context of all scripture.

12. In the first Passover, the sign for deliverance and the only sign was the blood from the sacrificed lamb on the door lintels. Nothing else.

Another poster has shown that Jesus did state He was being symbolic:

after the Last Supper
before the Garden

John 16:25
“I have said these things to you in figures of speech.
Click to expand...
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.

The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
 
''
I
dingoling. said:
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.
The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
=========================== end ding's post

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
 
Buzzard said:
''

I
dingoling. said:
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.
The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
=========================== end ding's post

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
Click to expand...
??????
 
dingoling. said:
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.
The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
=========================== end ding's post

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
dingoling. said:
??????
dingoling. said:
??????
Click to expand...
end ding's reply

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;​
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,​
even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name,​
and hast not denied my faith,​
even in those days wherein Antipas (anti-Pappa) was my faithful martyr,​
who was slain among you, ​
where Satan dwelleth.​

and Lucifer says
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

I know where Satan's seat is:
 
Last edited:
Buzzard said:
dingoling. said:
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.
The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
=========================== end ding's post

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
dingoling. said:
??????

end ding's reply

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;​
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,​
even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name,​
and hast not denied my faith,​
even in those days wherein Antipas (anti-Pappa) was my faithful martyr,​
who was slain among you, ​
where Satan dwelleth.​

and Lucifer says
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:

I know where Satan's seat is:
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with my post?
 
dingoling. said:
It is for those whose highest authority is scripture and are in disagreement with those who say it is not symbolic.
Click to expand...
prove it
Back up your claim
Prove that that those whose highest authority is scripture require figurative verses to be labeled as such.
We are waiting
 
dingoling. said:
Scripture is the highest authority. The nCCs words trying to convince us that it is symbolic is not the highest authority.
Click to expand...
You have been unable to tacke the points raised in the op and are diverting to this non exist authority. You and your institution have no authority and I was very clear in the op that the topic should not be diverted to it. But then when you cannot defend your belief, I suppose diversion is the only way to cover up that fact.

These are the points.

Please try and show with reasons and evidence why we should take it as literal.

Not one of these reasons for it not being the real presence have been answered by RCs, if it is the real presence then Jesus has broken His own Word about not consuming human flesh or drinking blood.

The hypocrisy of the RCC on these matters is showing. Let us look at the facts once again:

1. The covenant comes in with the shedding of blood, this did not happen at the last supper. The death of the testator.

2. Jesus was telling the apostles what was to happen, foretelling and preparation.

3. The Passover meal is symbolic, the elements at the meal are symbolic.

4. You are ignoring other scripture verses including Luke and Hebrews. Luke tells us it is a remembrance not literal.

5. There are evidence for all other physical changes - the Nile turning to blood water could not be drunk, the water into wine it was tasted, best wine.

6. It would be breaking the commandment against drinking blood which is in both testaments.

7. Jesus did not tempt the apostles to sin, Satan is the one who tempts us not Jesus.

8. If Jesus had tempted the apostles to sin, He would no longer be spotless and that would mean he was not our saviour.

9. The rules of covenants means a sacrifice is needed, there was no sacrifices at the LS.

10. The NC is related to a sin offering in Heb. which means there has to be a real death, a real sacrifice.

11. There is no evidence for it being literal when read in context of all scripture.

12. In the first Passover, the sign for deliverance and the only sign was the blood from the sacrificed lamb on the door lintels. Nothing else.

Another poster has shown that Jesus did state He was being symbolic:
 
Merton said:
The bread and wine are not changed physically. The atoms remain the same. Carbohydrates and ETOH alcohol are as before. Which is why you still get calories from the bread and still get drunk from the wine.

The atoms are part of matter. They make up the material for a 'thing,' or substance. For example, a house can be made out of bricks or out of wood. The material is different from the substance, which is the house. The brick house can be dismantled and the brick materials used to build a bridge. In that case, the house has changed into a bridge, though the material stays the same. The bricks are the same but the substance (what it is, whether it is a house or a bridge) has wholly changed. The dogma from Trent as to the Eucharist is that the substance is wholly changed, from one substance (bread or wine) to a new substance (flesh or blood) (trans-substantiation).

This is from an interview with Ratzinger, who was then head of Doctrine in the Catholic Church, and would become the recently passed Pope Benedict XVI:

" It has never been asserted that, so to say, nature in a physical sense is being changed. The transformation reaches down to a more profound level. Tradition has it that this is a metaphysical process. Christ lays hold upon what is, from a purely physical viewpoint, bread and wine, in its inmost being, so that it is changed from within and Christ truly gives himself in them". (Joseph Ratzinger interview with Peter Seewald, God and the World, 2002)

The question is then not so much, how come a house can become a bridge if you are not changing the physical material?
It's more, how come we can see a house become a bridge because the structure and appearance changes, but nothing changes in the appearance of the bread or wine? Isn't there always a change in appearance in some way when one thing becomes another? Well, the teaching is that this is the exception. The change occurs, but the outward appearance of bread and wine remain as symbols for what this substance is: our food and drink and life from Christ.
Click to expand...
So you have nothing neither.
 
dingoling. said:
The words of Jesus are not good enough for you? You don't consider the words of Jesus as a defense for our beliefs? Are your words better than Jesus?
Click to expand...
The words of Jesus are good enough for everyone. But they way you read them then Peter is Satan, Herod is a fox, you should chop off offending body parts and that would be horrible for some of the RC leaders, Jesus is a door etc. Jesus words have to be unstood in context. You and others are avoiding the points in the op.

Trying again.

Please try and show with reasons and evidence why we should take it as literal.

Not one of these reasons for it not being the real presence have been answered by RCs, if it is the real presence then Jesus has broken His own Word about not consuming human flesh or drinking blood.

The hypocrisy of the RCC on these matters is showing. Let us look at the facts once again:

1. The covenant comes in with the shedding of blood, this did not happen at the last supper. The death of the testator.

2. Jesus was telling the apostles what was to happen, foretelling and preparation.

3. The Passover meal is symbolic, the elements at the meal are symbolic.

4. You are ignoring other scripture verses including Luke and Hebrews. Luke tells us it is a remembrance not literal.

5. There are evidence for all other physical changes - the Nile turning to blood water could not be drunk, the water into wine it was tasted, best wine.

6. It would be breaking the commandment against drinking blood which is in both testaments.

7. Jesus did not tempt the apostles to sin, Satan is the one who tempts us not Jesus.

8. If Jesus had tempted the apostles to sin, He would no longer be spotless and that would mean he was not our saviour.

9. The rules of covenants means a sacrifice is needed, there was no sacrifices at the LS.

10. The NC is related to a sin offering in Heb. which means there has to be a real death, a real sacrifice.

11. There is no evidence for it being literal when read in context of all scripture.

12. In the first Passover, the sign for deliverance and the only sign was the blood from the sacrificed lamb on the door lintels. Nothing else.

Another poster has shown that Jesus did state He was being symbolic:
 
dingoling. said:
The tabernacle. The Trinity can be found in the tabernacle.
- God the Father is the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies
- God the Son is the table with the bread of the presence and the flagons with the wine on the north side in the Holy place
- God the Holy Spirit is the Menorah on the south side of the Holy of Holies.

The bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ if we understand what is happening correctly.
Click to expand...
Not able once again to respond to the OP and your understanding is false. No God is in and out of the ark of the covenant. The Menorah represents God's light. Jesus is not on the table at all. Another diversion by you.
 
dingoling. said:
The words of Jesus are not good enough for you? You don't consider the words of Jesus as a defense for our beliefs? Are your words better than Jesus?
Click to expand...
NO they show very cleary that RCs do not understand Jesus and divert off topic rather than confront the points made in the op. Trying

Please try and show with reasons and evidence why we should take it as literal.

Not one of these reasons for it not being the real presence have been answered by RCs, if it is the real presence then Jesus has broken His own Word about not consuming human flesh or drinking blood.

The hypocrisy of the RCC on these matters is showing. Let us look at the facts once again:

1. The covenant comes in with the shedding of blood, this did not happen at the last supper. The death of the testator.

2. Jesus was telling the apostles what was to happen, foretelling and preparation.

3. The Passover meal is symbolic, the elements at the meal are symbolic.

4. You are ignoring other scripture verses including Luke and Hebrews. Luke tells us it is a remembrance not literal.

5. There are evidence for all other physical changes - the Nile turning to blood water could not be drunk, the water into wine it was tasted, best wine.

6. It would be breaking the commandment against drinking blood which is in both testaments.

7. Jesus did not tempt the apostles to sin, Satan is the one who tempts us not Jesus.

8. If Jesus had tempted the apostles to sin, He would no longer be spotless and that would mean he was not our saviour.

9. The rules of covenants means a sacrifice is needed, there was no sacrifices at the LS.

10. The NC is related to a sin offering in Heb. which means there has to be a real death, a real sacrifice.

11. There is no evidence for it being literal when read in context of all scripture.

12. In the first Passover, the sign for deliverance and the only sign was the blood from the sacrificed lamb on the door lintels. Nothing else.

Another poster has shown that Jesus did state He was being symbolic:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top