Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7

[SPOKENWORD]

You worship God by giving him the adoration due only to a deity. How adoration is expressed varies from culture to culture, group to group. What is worship behavior for one group is not necessarily worship behavior for the next. For example, Jews refused to bow to any earthly rulers because in Jewish culture it was a sign of worship. But among Europeans, bowing is simply a sign of respect for those in authority over you, like Kings and Lords. In Japan, you bow when you simply greet a person. All this to say that you cannot define worship by specific behaviors, ONLY in your INTENT to worship a deity.

Thanks for your opinion. Something Jewjitzu could not do.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Thanks for your opinion. Something Jewjitzu could not do.

Rotfl... I gave Jesus as an example in practice. You couldn't follow that?

 

[Jewjitzu]

Oh? Maybe I'm wrong. I was always taught that bowing to anyone was forbidden in Judaism. For example, Mordechai refused to bow to Haaman.

The explanation I've seen is that Haman thought himself divine or had idolatrous images on his clothing.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Rotfl... I gave Jesus as an example in practice. You couldn't follow that?

I didnt ask what Jesus did. I asked you.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

What did Jesus do? Did he worship or pray to himself?

Explain prosenekas in Heb 5:7.

Ill let the greek scholars answer it.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Ill let the greek scholars answer it.

Ok, we're done.

 

[Jewjitzu]

I didnt ask what Jesus did. I asked you.

There's your answer.

 

[Open Heart]

The explanation I've seen is that Haman thought himself divine or had idolatrous images on his clothing.

I dont' remember ever seeing anything about this in the text.

 

[Jewjitzu]

I dont' remember ever seeing anything about this in the text.

It's not in the text. It's in Rashi.

 

[tbeachhead]

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Chariti above points to unmerited grace being extended.

First, I don't know who chariti is. This last sentence makes no sense.

It's not surprising that you balk at the thought that your Messiah grew...and the context from which your soundbite was wrenched was AFTER he had blown the likes of Gamaliel, Annas and Caiaphas away with his wisdom at the age of 12...He had just stayed behind in Jerusalem and hung out in the temple with the greatest minds of His day, conversing with them on the depths of scripture. And from THERE...where a Gamaliel dwelt...He continued to grow. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us as one of us to become One with us.. He was not born like Athena, fully armored from the head of Zeus. Emmanuel lived as a man.

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Prosenekas above points to the petitions of someone needing saving.

Whoever that is...he is as clueless as you are. Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us...even for you. It's not surprising that He spent every morning in fellowship with the Father, and that His prayers were heard, not just by the Father, but by His disciples. He, having known Moses, knew the power of intercession as Moses did. Even His death and resurrection were a symphony of prayer...as the sure mercies of David were.

Is it problematic for you that David translated every promise of Nathan's prophecy into prayer, word for word? That's how prayer works...and why it works.

Aren't these verses problematic for Christians? Please stick to the verses.

When you understand the principles of love that gives His Own for the world He loves, there is no problem in the principles at all.

 

[Jewjitzu]

First, I don't know who chariti is. This last sentence makes no sense.

Chariti is Greek for grace.

It's not surprising that you balk at the thought that your Messiah grew...

In unmerited grace? No, that doesn't surprise me as the original Nazarenes only thought Jesus was human, and perfected himself, not that he was perfect.

and the context from which your soundbite was wrenched was AFTER he had blown the likes of Gamaliel,

Uh, Gamaliel was a Nasi, head of the Pharisees, friend of the Nazarenes who pretty much saved the apostles lives before the Sanhedrin in Acts 5.

Jesus would have borrowed his teachings from the likes of him and other Pharisees.

Annas and Caiaphas away with his wisdom at the age of 12...He had just stayed behind in Jerusalem and hung out in the temple with the greatest minds of His day, conversing with them on the depths of scripture.

Basic bar mitzvah stuff.

God doesn't grow in wisdom. Jesus did as all men do.

And from THERE...where a Gamaliel dwelt...He continued to grow. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us as one of us to become One with us.. He was not born like Athena, fully armored from the head of Zeus. Emmanuel lived as a man.

He was born just a man, normal. He grew in unmerited grace like all men.

Whoever that is...he is as clueless as you are. Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us...even for you. It's not surprising that He spent every morning in fellowship with the Father, and that His prayers were heard, not just by the Father, but by His disciples. He, having known Moses, knew the power of intercession as Moses did. Even His death and resurrection were a symphony of prayer...as the sure mercies of David were.

Ironically, his prayers in Hebrews 5:7, prosenekas, shows he required penitence.

Is it problematic for you that David translated every promise of Nathan's prophecy into prayer, word for word? That's how prayer works...and why it works.

Not for me.

When you understand the principles of love that gives His Own for the world He loves, there is no problem in the principles at all.

Irrelevant.

 

[tbeachhead]

Chariti is Greek for grace.

I would have recognized charis, the nominative form. You are using the dative form, and I should have understood. But I haven't seen in what context you're mentioning it here.

In unmerited grace? No, that doesn't surprise me as the original Nazarenes only thought Jesus was human, and perfected himself, not that he was perfect.

You're trying to corral the nuances of the Greek language. Charis has more than one meaning. He grew in "favor, being disposed to, being inclined toward, favorability towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them")." It was certainly not unmerited. He grew in obedience. In fact, I'm surprised you don't mention the verse in Hebrews where Jesus "...learned obedience from the things He suffered..." Ask me to reconcile that, and I'll take you to the cross and the full meaning of obedience.

Uh, Gamaliel was a Nasi, head of the Pharisees, friend of the Nazarenes who pretty much saved the apostles lives before the Sanhedrin in Acts 5.

Jesus would have borrowed his teachings from the likes of him and other Pharisees.

Jesus borrowed nothing...and Gamaliel being old, it is highly likely he was among the elders who met the twelve-year-old prodigy in the temple.

Basic bar mitzvah stuff.

And light-headed fools for leaders then, who were impressed with a twelve-year-old's "basic bar mitzvah stuff." I thought Jews boasted wisdom.

He was born just a man, normal. He grew in unmerited grace like all men.

He was the word made flesh, He grew as all do who dwell in the fleshly tent of this life.

How little you grasp and with such difficulty.

Ironically, his prayers in Hebrews 5:7, prosenekas, shows he required penitence.

No...The Greek only shows a posture. Repentance is another word. Jesus was without sin.

Not for me.

So you're not surprised that David responded to the Word, Who became Messiah.

Irrelevant.

Sure...you still don't understand.

You could some day...but there is a lot of pride to overcome and ancient, enforced misunderstanding.

 

[Jewjitzu]

I would have recognized charts, the nominative form. But I haven't seen in what context you're mentioning it here.

Luke 2:52 Greek Text Analysis

You're trying to corral the nuances of the Greek language. He grew in "favor, being disposed to, being inclined toward, favorability towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them")."

Yep, unmerited favor.

It was certainly not unmerited. He grew in obedience. In fact, I'm surprised you don't mention the verse in Hebrews where Jesus "...learned obedience from the things He suffered..." Ask me to reconcile that, and I'll take you to the cross and the full meaning of obedience.

You'd hope someone could learn obedience without suffering.

Jesus borrowed nothing...and Gamaliel being old, it is highly likely he was among the elders who met the twelve-year-old prodigy in the temple.

Jesus borrowed a lot starting from the golden rule, do unto others.

And light-headed fools for leaders then, who were impressed with a twelve-year-old's "basic bar mitzvah stuff." I thought Jews boasted wisdom.

Na, they were amazed what he knew for a 12 year old. I've run across that as well with 12 year old phenoms.

He was the word made flesh, He grew as all do who dwell in the fleshly tent of this life.

He was created in the womb the same way all of creation came about, the spoken word from the Father.

How little you grasp and with such difficulty.
No...The Greek only shows a posture. Repentance is another word. Jesus was without sin.

No, Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 points to his just being normal.

So you're not surprised that David responded to the Word, Who became Messiah.

David didn't know Jesus. God's word, the Torah, was around way before Jesus was born, created.

Sure...you still don't understand.

I understand you can't stick to the topic in the OP.

You could some day...but there is a lot of pride to overcome and ancient, enforced misunderstanding.

Yeah, the Church and you have a lot of learning to do. Like the Samaritan woman who didn't know what she worshipped, you're lost. Grab my hem, Zech 8:23.

 

[Photine]

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

As a man, Christ grew in wisdom, but He is actually The Wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24).

 

[tbeachhead]

Luke 2:52 Greek Text Analysis

I read the text...and understood why you chose the dative form. But I hadn't connected that you were reading Jesus growing in favor as a problem...

Yep, unmerited favor.

Not necessarily unmerited. Biblehub has excellent resources...as I'm sure you've discovered. The Father announced to all who would listen more than once How well-pleased He was with His Word, your Messiah Emmanuel come in the flesh.

You'd hope someone could learn obedience without suffering.

Suffering has a double meaning. You'd wish He didn't have to go to the cross, and be reviled by the sons of Adam whom He created in His image and His likeness to rule...

Jesus borrowed a lot starting from the golden rule, do unto others.

Turn the other cheek was a revelation to Socrates. The eyes of the LORD has ALWAYS searched the world to and fro to show Himself strong on the one whose heart was perfect toward Him. Abraham sired the race from which Messiah was born. He was not loved exclusively. Melchizedek had favor...and even Balaam received powerful prophecies on Israel's behalf despite his bent nature.

Na, they were amazed what he knew for a 12 year old. I've run across that as well with 12 year old phenoms.

You are the one who claimed it was "simple bar mitzvah stuff." I never did. Gamaliel recognized in Jesus Someone greater...clearly.

He was created in the womb the same way all of creation came about, the spoken word from the Father.

Nope...And Isaiah belies the claim despite your willingness to deny what Isaiah says and the LXX confirms. Mary heard the promise, and said, "Be it done unto me according to the word." At that moment, the word became flesh, and life was conceived. Jesus was unique as Messiah was prophesied to be.

No, Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 points to his just being normal.

Nope...they point to Him being in every way like as we, except without sin. you willingly miss the wonder, because you cannot see it until you are born again. You can't even see the kingdom until you're born again as Nicodemus was.

David didn't know Jesus. God's word, the Torah, was around way before Jesus was born, created.

David wrote songs about Jesus. Again, you don't understand the nature of prophecy.

I understand you can't stick to the topic in the OP.

I actually responded only to the OP...You're stunned that Jesus grew. I'm not...life grows.

Yeah, the Church and you have a lot of learning to do. Like the Samaritan woman who didn't know what she worshipped, you're lost. Grab my hem, Zech 8:23.

You're so entertaining.

 

[davbeh2010]

Luke 2:52 Greek Text Analysis

Yep, unmerited favor.
You'd hope someone could learn obedience without suffering.
Jesus borrowed a lot starting from the golden rule, do unto others.
Na, they were amazed what he knew for a 12 year old. I've run across that as well with 12 year old phenoms.
He was created in the womb the same way all of creation came about, the spoken word from the Father.
No, Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 points to his just being normal.
David didn't know Jesus. God's word, the Torah, was around way before Jesus was born, created.
I understand you can't stick to the topic in the OP.
Yeah, the Church and you have a lot of learning to do. Like the Samaritan woman who didn't know what she worshipped, you're lost. Grab my hem, Zech 8:23.

It was certainly not unmerited. He grew in obedience. In fact, I'm surprised you don't mention the verse in Hebrews where Jesus "...learned obedience from the things He suffered..." Ask me to reconcile that, and I'll take you to the cross and the full meaning of obedience.

You'd hope someone could learn obedience without suffering.

I agree Jewjitzu, however, it reads a little biased? (i.e. Babylonian captivity, Assyrian captivity)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

As a man, Christ grew in wisdom, but He is actually The Wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24).

You don't grow in wisdom if you are the wisdom.

 

[Open Heart]

So you're not surprised that David responded to the Word, Who became Messiah.

David probably didn't even have a concept of a the messiah, as the idea developed by prophets later in time.

 

[Photine]

You don't grow in wisdom if you are the wisdom.

The Wisdom of God nullified itself.

 

[Jewjitzu]

I read the text...and understood why you chose the dative form. But I hadn't connected that you were reading Jesus growing in favor as a problem...

Of course it is. If you're God, there's no favor to gain.

Not necessarily unmerited. Biblehub has excellent resources...as I'm sure you've discovered. The Father announced to all who would listen more than once How well-pleased He was with His Word, your Messiah Emmanuel come in the flesh.

Sure, once you're obedient. He had to learn that.

Suffering has a double meaning. You'd wish He didn't have to go to the cross, and be reviled by the sons of Adam whom He created in His image and His likeness to rule...

He didn't have to.

Turn the other cheek was a revelation to Socrates.

Really? That's Rabbinical too.

The eyes of the LORD has ALWAYS searched the world to and fro to show Himself strong on the one whose heart was perfect toward Him. Abraham sired the race from which Messiah was born. He was not loved exclusively. Melchizedek had favor...and even Balaam received powerful prophecies on Israel's behalf despite his bent nature.

You are the one who claimed it was "simple bar mitzvah stuff." I never did. Gamaliel recognized in Jesus Someone greater...clearly.

Gamaliel wasn't called out as one of the ones during Jesus' bar mitzvah.

Nope...And Isaiah belies the claim despite your willingness to deny what Isaiah says and the LXX confirms. Mary heard the promise, and said, "Be it done unto me according to the word." At that moment, the word became flesh, and life was conceived. Jesus was unique as Messiah was prophesied to be.

Nothing in Isaiah says God became flesh. The opposite is said, Isaiah 40:18,25;46:5. No likeness to flesh, blood, or man.

Nope...they point to Him being in every way like as we, except without sin. you willingly miss the wonder, because you cannot see it until you are born again. You can't even see the kingdom until you're born again as Nicodemus was.

Sorry, he was a regular guy. The Nazarenes saw him as such.

David wrote songs about Jesus. Again, you don't understand the nature of prophecy.

Really? I haven't seen them.

I actually responded only to the OP...You're stunned that Jesus grew. I'm not...life grows.

He grew is wisdom. God doesn't.

You're so entertaining.

I know.