dberrie2020
Super Member
Would that be compatible with this testimony?
Hebrews 3:14---King James Version
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Mormon "Justification of life"
- Thread starter Janice Bower
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Would that be compatible with this testimony?
Hebrews 3:14---King James Version
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Will this video be the final nail in the coffin of Latter-day Saints believe in a works based salvation? Sadly the answer to this question is no.
His Grace Is Sufficient | Brad Wilcox
relying alone upon the merits of Christ Moroni 6:4 (Doctrine & Covenants 3:20)
alone adverb indicating that something is confined to the specified subject or recipient.
See also my posts #165 #166 #167
Why don’t you come clean and say that not everyone can have faith unto salvation? According to your doctrinal beliefs only people whom God has elected will come to faith in Christ. You talk the talk of sola fide but doctrinally but you don’t walk the walk. Latter-day Saints on the other hand hold to the biblical position that God “wills that all people shall have Life,and shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:4 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
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Of course it is. Magdalena however will never admit to this just as she will predictably reject my recent posts that rebut her analysis of 2 Nephi 25:23.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
I agree. I believe that's what we find being taught in our church. If it's in your heart, then you will do them. If you don't, the person who has the law written on his heart will seek to reconcile his failure with God, and thankfully, through Christ, we can do that. But one must do all they can to do that. Only then can God's divine grace be operative in a person's life.
nah. We do them because we love God and strive to be like him in all that we do. Nothing that we can do will "earn" us salvation. That's a "twist" our critics put on us. None of us can save ourselves. It's simply not possible. We need Christ to be saved, but to get Him to save us, we have to be reconciled to God. Why is that so difficult to understand?
What separates us from our critics is that they think that keeping God's commandments has no effect on their salvation. That contradicts the scriptures, IMO. One who willingly rejects God's council cannot expect to be saved. I think everyone can agree on that. So, it appears that good works are very necessary and I think everyone can agree on that even if they won't admit it.
The problem I think our critics have is about the necessity of certain ordinances where our ordinances count and theirs don't even though the ordinances themselves are not salvific. There are statements by leaders of the church and the direction their statements have led where some, even many, have become judgmental that there are some members who just aren't good enough but this isn't the message of the gospel nor is it the message of the church. The message is spelled out quite clearly. It is after all we CAN do, NOT after all we MUST do. And then, what is it that we are to do? The part that is overlooked, even in the church, is that the only thing we can do is be reconciled to God. This is extended even to those who have passed out of life. There are many who have had their membership restored after they have died. Clearly, the opportunity to take advantage of Jesus' saving grace is made available to all, even to people who have never heard the gospel or heard of Jesus Christ or of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If this is true, and I contest that it is, then what works can we do that would save us? None. That has never been our doctrine.
If you ask me, that's what I just said we teach. The problem that exists between us is that you all seem to think that breaking the commandments is okay. We teach that it is not okay and that if one does break them, they need to repent and reconcile themselves to God. Would you agree?
brotherofJared
Well-known member
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Yep. Read that carefully. It doesn't say after all we MUST do. It also tells us what we CAN do, in fact the only thing we CAN do in the same verse, you all just choose to ignore it as you all do with many of your own scriptures.
This is what we can do: "to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God;" It is after we do this that we can be saved by grace. Can you do that? Say yes. Yes, we can.
Magdalena
Well-known member
Before they changed the words…
”Lead me, guide me, walk beside me
Help me find the way.
Teach me all that I must do, to live with Him someday.”
The indoctrination started from birth.
Magdalena
Well-known member
You’re echoing back things we’ve said to you and trying to make it look like it came from mormonism.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that Christ can save whoever He wants? And that if you truly understand what He did for us, you naturally try to be more like Him.
Harping about obedience the way you guys do shows an understanding on the level of ‘letter of the law.’ Christ taught a higher understanding… the spirit of the law. He explained what that means. Not only are you not supposed to kill anyone, you’re not supposed to get angry. That puts your actions higher than the letter of the law, so there is no disobedience.
No one says it’s ok to be disobedient. But what do you want us to be obedient to? Mormon laws, not Christ’s.
He gave us two commandments… love God and love each other.
No following false prophets, false doctrine, false ordinances.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Completely irrelevant.
Magdalena
Well-known member
No, it isn’t. It’s been Mormon belief since the beginning.Completely irrelevant.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
You're taking things that I said and trying to make them look like they aren't part of our doctrine. They are part of our doctrine exactly as I have stated them, your animus aside. I get it, you don't like us, but you're not our judge.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that I already know that Christ can save whoever He wants? That's not the problem here. The problem is that you all are trying to decide for Him who He will save. That's not your place. You all take what we believe, like this passage about after all we can do and want to put the focus on the word "after". Of course, it's after. No one is saved before they receive Christ. No one is saved before they are reconciled to God. Why is it do difficult for you all to just get along with your lives and stop dragging everyone else down with you?
Sure, that's not the issue. It seems that the opposite would be equally true. If one does not "naturally try to be more like him" then they don't understand what he did for us. And therein we can see who is saved and who isn't because of what the do.
It's not a difficult concept. If you murder someone, you don't have the holy spirit or the influence of God in your life. It's that simple. There's nothing to harp about.
Are you trying to excuse murder because someone has within them the "spirit of the law"? I have told you the story about the born-again Christian who beat a man with a spanning wrench. Did he have the "spirit of the law"?
Indeed. It's what you do that makes the difference. Thanks for pointing that out.
I realize that but if you're disobedient, does that have ANY effect on the state of your salvation? This is where the BIG difference in our beliefs exists.
They are the same as far receiving salvational grace is concerned.
Yep. That's true.
That's your opinion about what we believe. You all have set yourself up as judges who determine who will make it and who won't based on some arbitrary ideas. What is a prophet? What is false doctrine? What are false ordinances? And that is where we differ.
We believe that if one says that he believes in God but then doesn't do what God has shown us to do, then we can't be saved. That is what we believe the Bible teaches, but you guys have invented another message which goes like this, once saved always saved and there's nothing we can do about it. I think common sense refutes such doctrine. We don't even need a Bible to figure that one out.
Bonnie
Super Member
Jesus knows of only 2 places people go after death--heaven and he'll. And Heaven has only one Kingdom.
Magdalena
Well-known member
You’re wrong. I have nothing against Mormons. It’s false prophets and false doctrines that I speak up about.
No. It’s mormonism that excludes people from salvation if they don’t measure up to your rules.
Why do you need to be concerned about who is saved and who isn’t? Who made you the judges of men?
Then why do you guys keep harping about obedience here?
No.
Apparently not.
It‘s what’s in your heart that’s important.
Are you ever disobedient? Do you feel you should not be saved for the mistakes you’ve made?
It’s not arbitrary. Christ warned us about them, and told us how to recognize them.
That’s not what we believe. Maybe when knowing the truth becomes more important to you than protecting mormonism, you’ll see it.
dberrie2020
Super Member
That same argument can be made about the theology pawned here--once we accept the testimony of the Savior--we won't feel the need to protect false theologies:
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
I don't think I left my earlier comment but I'm certain that none of you all know what Jesus knows. You ought to stop speaking as though you do. Can you point to a scripture where Jesus said there were "only 2 places people go after death"?
brotherofJared
Well-known member
? ? ?
Because you say so?
So? What has that got to do with anything I said?
I repeated what you said almost word for word and then drew an observation.
What I said is true. You are wrong.
Nope. It's our critics who choose that Mormons can't go to heaven. Tell me that's not true.
First off, I don't know where you got this idea. What part of what I said leads you to believe I am or am not concerned about who is saved and who isn't? You made a statement. You claimed that people who are saved naturally want to follow Christ or words to that effect (if I got that wrong, please feel free to correct me). The converse of that statement is also true. I'm just closing the open loop in your statement. Those who don't naturally want to follow Christ must not be saved. You can tell by what they do (<- that was the point). You certainly can't tell by what they say. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Do you understand what that phrase means? You can tell by the results whether or not the correct ingredients were used.
it seems to me that many of your responses are reflexive and off-the-cuff. You don't give them much thought, you just spew your animus. Maybe I'm wrong and there is some substance to your response, but I don't see it. I mean, isn't it the loving thing to do to be concerned? Wouldn't that be following the two great commandments?
Naturally, I am concerned but there's nothing I can do about your choices and I respect them. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone on this board. If you want to know what I believe, I am willing to share, if not, then I'm willing to wait until you want to know what I believe. ???
Even if it takes an eternity before you want to know. But I'm not going to infringe on what you believe. I'm not going to insert myself into your forums and tell you all that you're wrong. I can do that well enough in the forum set aside for us to discuss what I really do believe.
No one. I didn't claim that I was a judge and I haven't judged you or anyone here. The scenario is hypothetical. I don't know what you or anyone on this board claim you believe and then don't do what you claim you believe. I'm just saying that the person who does that can't possibly be saved. The point was, we can see who believes by what they do and it is by what they do that we can see who is saved. Lip service means nothing. Now, if that struck close to home and anyone feels guilty about it, that was purely unintentional, of course. I can't read minds like you all appear to be able to.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
You can say that until you're blue in the face, but the evidence doesn't support your claim. What's important is what you do and what you do shows us what's in your heart.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Just answer the question. Your retort is just an effort to avoid answering.
If it's based on your opinion, it is arbitrary. Defined: "Based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something." If it's based on your opinion (that's an individual preference), then it's arbitrary. You don't like Joseph Smith, so he's a false prophet. You don't like the idea that our actions have anything to do with our salvation, so it's false doctrine. You don't like the fact that you have no prophets or apostles, so that means the ones we have are false.
If fact, you all are so controlled by your animus that you can't even see that the Deut passages are not tenable. No human can possibly verify everything a prophet says in a lifetime. It's not possible and yet you keep regurgitating the same phrase as if it was a mantra, don't believe it, don't believe it, don't believe it, ad nauseam. We use the Bible to point out the flaws in your doctrine, you refuse to even argue it, instead, you all state you've settled the argument and refuse to address the rebuttals. It's a silly game and you all created a forum to play it in.
So, by definition, it is arbitrary until you provide some evidence and then debate the evidence which never happens here. We all have our beliefs and none of us can prove anything until long after we're dead to mortal life. We can argue until the cows come home and it won't make any difference, so I don't know why you all waste your time doing it except that you like to play the game. It gives you all some sense of accomplishment if you can put down someone else's belief and that's just sad.
Yep and what he said was "by their fruits ye shall know them". So much for Deuteronomy. Fruit = works and by their works you can tell if a person believes what he's telling you is true (you don't know it's true, just that he believes it's true). Do you see how that works? Do you see it's all about what a person does?
Now, you can run off and start crying about what Joseph Smith did if you want to, but that just takes us right back to the problem you all should have with Abraham and Moses. The deal about "little girls" is arbitrary. You know that Joseph didn't instigate that but it suits your animus so you use it. anything goes so long as it supports your opinion, even if it isn't true. Joseph never had sex with any of those married women, the sealing was for eternity only. You all have no evidence to support the assertion, but it suits your animus so you use it.
That leaves the practice of polygamy and Joseph didn't start that. To be sure there are other things but they are all arbitrary as well. Abraham practiced polygamy. We know that Jacob did as well. Moses most likely did. It's possible that Jesus did.