Mormonism: Romans 4:16. How Are Men Justified?

Janice Bower

Janice Bower

Well-known member
"Therefore are ye justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." (Romans 4:16, Inspired Version)

The Life and Teachings of Jesus & his Apostles, copyright 1978, 1979, p. 18
 
Inquirer But how can you be made righteous and reestablish the relationship with God without actually being righteous?

Teacher You can’t. As Elder McConkie puts it, the law of justification means that “‘. . . all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ (D. & C. 132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13–14; Alma 41:15; D. & C. 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. This law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing.” (DNTC, 2:230.)
 
Janice Bower said:
Inquirer But how can you be made righteous and reestablish the relationship with God without actually being righteous?

Teacher You can’t. As Elder McConkie puts it, the law of justification means that “‘. . . all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ (D. & C. 132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13–14; Alma 41:15; D. & C. 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. This law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing.” (DNTC, 2:230.)
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Interesting that Bruce McConkie is quoted here. I thought he was thrown under the bus and his material is basically relegated to the dust bin, despite being utilized by missionaries for a significant period of time-- 50 years about I think. He was certainly used in the mid 1970s when I was in southeast Idaho. My LDS landlord was high on him.
 
How does a Mormon get an unearned blessing?

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21).
 
Janice Bower said:
"Therefore are ye justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." (Romans 4:16, Inspired Version)

The Life and Teachings of Jesus & his Apostles, copyright 1978, 1979, p. 18
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This is Smith's "inspired" version? If so, it came from the devil, the father of lies. The REAL verse is:

"For this reason it is [a]by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the [b]descendants, not only to [c]those who are of the Law, but also to [d]those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all..." (NASB 1995)

Nothing here about our works, at all. Nothing. Once again, Joseph Smith lied.
 
Janice Bower said:
How does a Mormon get an unearned blessing?

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21).
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Obedience is the major catchword in the LDS church...but in true Christian churches, it is God's Grace, freely given.
 
Another thing I haven't mentioned is that in the 1970s every other phrase in Mormon conversations was "the church" instead of "Christ".
 
Janice Bower said:
Another thing I haven't mentioned is that in the 1970s every other phrase in Mormon conversations was "the church" instead of "Christ".
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Yes, like Theo stated, God is on his side and I stated I'm on Gods side... hmm! Is God on you side?
 
organgrinder said:
Interesting that Bruce McConkie is quoted here. I thought he was thrown under the bus and his material is basically relegated to the dust bin, despite being utilized by missionaries for a significant period of time-- 50 years about I think. He was certainly used in the mid 1970s when I was in southeast Idaho. My LDS landlord was high on him.
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I love him still, great man, great saint and greater even now! Abide also means follow, he got it right.
 
Bonnie said:
This is Smith's "inspired" version? If so, it came from the devil, the father of lies. The REAL verse is:

"For this reason it is [a]by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the [b]descendants, not only to [c]those who are of the Law, but also to [d]those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all..." (NASB 1995)

Nothing here about our works, at all. Nothing. Once again, Joseph Smith lied.
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I'm going to assume that most people here can't read Koine Greek, so I will be using a transliteration of the Greek, rather than the Greek text itself.

JST: "Therefore are ye justified of faith and works, through grace,
NASB: :For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace,
Greek: "dia touto ........ ek pisteos, .........hina ...................................kata .... xarin,

JST: to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
NASB: so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants,
Greek: eis to einai bebaian ten epaggelian ....... panti .... toi spermati,

JST: not them only who are of the law,
NASB: not only to those who are of the Law,
Greek: ou toi ek tou nomou monon,

JST: but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham;
NASB: but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham,
Greek: alla kai toi ek pisteos Abraam,

JST: who is the father of us all."
NASB: who is the father of us all..."
Greek: hos estin pater panton hemon

The only change of any significance is the addition of "and works" in the beginning of the verse.

I've checked all the available textual apparatuses (these list any significant textual variants anywhere in the New Testament) namely Metzger, Comfort, NA28, UBS3, and the CNTTS, the last one being the most comprehensive, and none of them list "kai ergous" ("and works").


So for any Mormons who wish to respond, I have two questions:

1) Why should anyone accept Smith's "JST" when there is zero manuscript evidence to support any such change?

2) Why would Paul allegedly write "faith and works" in v.16, when just a few issues earlier Paul explicitly DENIED works as having any salvific role?:


Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


Ironically, Rom. 4:2-5 and Rom. 4:16 seem to be the ONLY sections of Rom. 4 that Joseph corrupted, so his level of self-unawareness is through the roof.
 
Theo1689 said:
I'm going to assume that most people here can't read Koine Greek, so I will be using a transliteration of the Greek, rather than the Greek text itself.

JST: "Therefore are ye justified of faith and works, through grace,
NASB: :For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace,
Greek: "dia touto ........ ek pisteos, .........hina ...................................kata .... xarin,

JST: to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
NASB: so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants,
Greek: eis to einai bebaian ten epaggelian ....... panti .... toi spermati,

JST: not them only who are of the law,
NASB: not only to those who are of the Law,
Greek: ou toi ek tou nomou monon,

JST: but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham;
NASB: but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham,
Greek: alla kai toi ek pisteos Abraam,

JST: who is the father of us all."
NASB: who is the father of us all..."
Greek: hos estin pater panton hemon

The only change of any significance is the addition of "and works" in the beginning of the verse.

I've checked all the available textual apparatuses (these list any significant textual variants anywhere in the New Testament) namely Metzger, Comfort, NA28, UBS3, and the CNTTS, the last one being the most comprehensive, and none of them list "kai ergous" ("and works").


So for any Mormons who wish to respond, I have two questions:

1) Why should anyone accept Smith's "JST" when there is zero manuscript evidence to support any such change?

2) Why would Paul allegedly write "faith and works" in v.16, when just a few issues earlier Paul explicitly DENIED works as having any salvific role?:


Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


Ironically, Rom. 4:2-5 and Rom. 4:16 seem to be the ONLY sections of Rom. 4 that Joseph corrupted, so his level of self-unawareness is through the roof.
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We are saved by Grace and works... Mormonism 101... chuckle.

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.

To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

If your friends ask, “Does your church believe you are saved by grace or works?” you could say, “We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.”

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
 
Richard7 said:
We are saved by Grace and works... Mormonism 101... chuckle.

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.
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You know, for once I thought you took the time to actually write some original material.
I should have known better.
All you did was cut-and-paste from lds.org.
At least you gave the link, so you can't be accused of plagiarism.

Richard7 said:
To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”
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Your source misrepresents Lewis.

"No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good."
[...]
"We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means—the only complete realist. Very well, then. The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practise the Christian virtues is that we fail. If there was any idea that God had set us a sort of exam, and that we might get good marks by deserving them, that has to be wiped out. If there was any idea of a sort of bargain—any idea that we could perform our side of the contract and thus put God in our debts so that it was up to Him, in mere justice, to perform His side—that has to be wiped out."
[...]
I am trying to talk about Faith in the second sense, the higher sense. I said last week that the question of Faith in this sense arises after a man has tried his level best to practise the Christian virtues, and found that he fails, and seen that even if he could he would only be giving back to God what was already God's own. In other words, he discovers his bankruptcy.
[...]
He is misunderstanding what he is and what God is. And he cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy.
[...]
Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't."
-- Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity . CrossReach Publications. Kindle Edition.



Here is the actual quote from LewisH:

"Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me that asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faiht in Christ is the ONLY thing to save you from despair at that point; and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come."
-- C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christiantity, Ch. 12, "Faith".

So despite Lewis' humility, what he meant by the "scissors" analogy is that you first need works, to convince you of your bankruptcy ("bring you to the poin where you throw up the sponge", and then faith, which saves, and inevitably results in good actions as a RESULT of one's salvation, not as a "requirement" for one's salvation.
 
Theo1689 said:
You know, for once I thought you took the time to actually write some original material.
I should have known better.
All you did was cut-and-paste from lds.org.
At least you gave the link, so you can't be accused of plagiarism.



Your source misrepresents Lewis.

"No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good."
[...]
"We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means—the only complete realist. Very well, then. The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practise the Christian virtues is that we fail. If there was any idea that God had set us a sort of exam, and that we might get good marks by deserving them, that has to be wiped out. If there was any idea of a sort of bargain—any idea that we could perform our side of the contract and thus put God in our debts so that it was up to Him, in mere justice, to perform His side—that has to be wiped out."
[...]
I am trying to talk about Faith in the second sense, the higher sense. I said last week that the question of Faith in this sense arises after a man has tried his level best to practise the Christian virtues, and found that he fails, and seen that even if he could he would only be giving back to God what was already God's own. In other words, he discovers his bankruptcy.
[...]
He is misunderstanding what he is and what God is. And he cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy.
[...]
Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't."
-- Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity . CrossReach Publications. Kindle Edition.



Here is the actual quote from LewisH:

"Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me that asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faiht in Christ is the ONLY thing to save you from despair at that point; and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come."
-- C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christiantity, Ch. 12, "Faith".

So despite Lewis' humility, what he meant by the "scissors" analogy is that you first need works, to convince you of your bankruptcy ("bring you to the poin where you throw up the sponge", and then faith, which saves, and inevitably results in good actions as a RESULT of one's salvation, not as a "requirement" for one's salvation.
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Wow, talk about original materials... not much above folks... we have a word for that Hy-------.
 
Richard7 said:
Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.
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Mormons delude themselves.


No man can obtain the gift of eternal life unless he is willing to sacrifice all earthly things in order to obtain it” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 261).

... And though we cannot claim these promises which were made to the ancients for they are not our property, merely because they were made to the ancient Saints, yet if we are the children of the Most High, and are called with the same calling with which they were called, and embrace the same covenant that they embraced, and are faithful to the testimony of our Lord as they were, we can approach the Father in the name of Christ as they approached Him, and for ourselves obtain the same promises. These promises, when obtained, if ever by us, will not be because Peter, John, and the other Apostles, with the churches at Sardis, Pergamos, Philadelphia, and elsewhere, walked in the fear of God, and had power and faith to prevail and obtain them; but it will be because we, ourselves, have faith and approach God in the name of His Son Jesus Chriist, even as they did; and when these promises are obtained, they will be promises directly to us, or they will do us no good. They will be communicated for our benefit, being our own property (through the gift of God), earned by our own diligence in keeping His commandments and walking uprightly before Him. If not, to what end serves the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and why was it ever communicated to us?
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.


Richard7 said:
If your friends ask, “Does your church believe you are saved by grace or works?” you could say, “We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.”

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
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Third Article of Faith:

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

One has to keep all the vows made in the temple including marriage for time and eternity, and you still do not have assurance until you receive the Second Anointing but even that can be revoked.
 
Richard7 said:
We are saved by Grace and works... Mormonism 101... chuckle.

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.

To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

If your friends ask, “Does your church believe you are saved by grace or works?” you could say, “We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.”

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
Click to expand...
Chuckle, chuckle, no we are NOT saved by grace AND works. In Mormonism, God's grace only kicks in "after all that we do." We must extend our best efforts before we can merit this grace...an oxymoronic statement, if ever there was one! Because the very definition of Grace in the Bible is God's UNdeserved favor. We CAN'T merit that which God freely gives us through faith in His Son!
 
This is typical of our critics. They focus on a phrase and exclude all else in an effort to cast dispersions on things they don't like. The above material isn't actually from Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol 2. The snippet from the college course, by itself isn't very helpful. I believe the focus of our critic is the phrase "gaining an unearned blessing". Our critics love to accuse us of getting nothing we haven't earned. There are two parts to the concept of the law of justification. The part that sticks out to me is "assures that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven". I would think that the idea that unrighteous acts will not be binding is significant, but our critics ignore it. To me, the context of the law of justification allows for repentance and forgiveness. There are two sides to that coin. One side of it is our responsibility, the other is up to God according to his knowledge. Even in this short phrase, we see the elements of work and faith. Again, our critics ignore it.

The dialog continues:

Inquirer Doesn’t that say that a man is justified by his works? He must be righteous to be justified.

Teacher Yes, he must be righteous, but it is not his own personal effort that justifies him. The only way a man
could be justified through his works alone would be to keep all the laws of God perfectly. Even one violation would estrange him from God, though, of course, no one sins just once. All men are sinful, violating the laws numerous times. This was what Paul was teaching when he said, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23.)

Reading the entire dialog is worth the effort. Never take anything a critic offers as evidence that their position is tenable. Ripping concepts out of context in an effort to color a person's view in their favor is not what critical thinkers and people searching for the truth usually accept, so I'm not worried about this tripe.

I wish I could see the rest of the commentary as it would probably add context to the information "The Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles" was citing from McConkie. Volume 1 is available online but 2 and 3 are not, that I could find.

A word about the inspired version, especially this particular passage. Rom 4:16 refers to the law of justification with the word, "it". It's not very helpful. It states "That is why it depends on faith...". Now, our critics have an amplified version of the scriptures that might look something like what Joseph Smith did here. They aren't beating their drums about the "changes" made in the text of the amplified version of the scriptures. That criticism is reserved for a farm boy who did a pretty good job. If you ask me, their teeth gnashing is over nothing and amounts to extreme jealousy akin to road rage.

Of course, the amplified version would never put works in as part of the law of justification. The "and works" addition is what gets our critics all riled up. But what do the scriptures say? "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness". How do we know that Abraham believed God? We know he believed God by that which he did. If you look back in Genesis 15, the call that Abraham believed was that he would have his own son and his seed would be as numerous as the stars. How do we know he believed this? Because he continued to strive to have a child well past the age of childbearing. Faith does not exist without work. This is easily seen, but ignored by our critics, in this passage as well as in the life of Abraham.

The rest of the passage is virtually the same in both the JST and other Bibles. Grace is not eliminated because we work. Though our work is not effectual, the law of justification prevents the consequences of our sins from becoming permanent. Is this not gracious?

These two phrases in virtually all sources of Rom 4:16 address both those who adhere to the Law of Moses and those who didn't have the law of Moses, so long as both groups exercised faith the same as Abraham did. Those who had the law - the promise might be sure to all the seed - "not them only who are of the law", the Jews, "but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham", the Gentiles. It is clear, from the passage that works of faith were necessary to obtain grace unto justification.

I further addressed these works as being seemingly benign works, not of the law at all - but not evil and not necessarily good. There appears to be nothing extra special about the work that was counted to Abraham for righteousness. He continued trying to have a child with Sarah because he believed God would keep his promise. He lived in a land that God gave him, but that he knew he would never have in his own lifetime and neither would his offspring for 400 years, yet he still lived there. I don't think we could find a more simple example of faith. It is not obedience. God didn't tell him how to accomplish any of these things and no one knew, if he didn't tell them, what he believed God would do for him. These simple acts of faith are what won Abraham the promises. He didn't move mountains, he lived among them. He didn't give birth to a nation, he had one child and from that one child came a nation. It is not unlike God himself who, through one child brought the entire human family into existence.

So, contrary to the opinion of our critics in opposition, it seems that Joseph Smith has it right and ALL of them have it wrong.
 
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Janice Bower said:
No man can obtain the gift of eternal life unless he is willing to sacrifice all earthly things in order to obtain it” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 261).
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I believe this is true. It is the parable of the pearl of great price. The key word here is willing. King Lamoni said it best. in the Book of Mormon Alma 22:18, "O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if though art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day...". That is a person who is WILLING to sacrifice all earthly things in order to obtain the gift of eternal life. Jesus sacrificed all earthly things. What wouldn't you be willing to give up to have eternal life? Whatever that is, that's your stumbling block.
Janice Bower said:
... And though we cannot claim these promises which were made to the ancients for they are not our property, merely because they were made to the ancient Saints, yet if we are the children of the Most High, and are called with the same calling with which they were called, and embrace the same covenant that they embraced, and are faithful to the testimony of our Lord as they were, we can approach the Father in the name of Christ as they approached Him, and for ourselves obtain the same promises.
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Do you disagree with that assessment?
Janice Bower said:
These promises, when obtained, if ever by us, will not be because Peter, John, and the other Apostles, with the churches at Sardis, Pergamos, Philadelphia, and elsewhere, walked in the fear of God, and had power and faith to prevail and obtain them; but it will be because we, ourselves, have faith and approach God in the name of His Son Jesus Chriist, even as they did;
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This also seems reasonable. I'm not sure what your issue is.
Janice Bower said:
even as they did; and when these promises are obtained, they will be promises directly to us, or they will do us no good. They will be communicated for our benefit, being our own property (through the gift of God), earned by our own diligence in keeping His commandments and walking uprightly before Him.
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The same as Abraham earned them and all the prophets and apostles who went before earned them. This is what Abraham did and is the point of Romans 4:16.

I was pretty sure it was the word "earn" that got you all bent out of shape. The free gift to all mankind regardless of who they are or what they did, is the resurrection, the restitution of body and spirit never to be separated again. Salvation, however; the privilege of living in the kingdom of God with God forever, is not free. It is a gift, but it's not free. That one, you have to do something to obtain it.
Janice Bower said:
If not, to what end serves the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and why was it ever communicated to us?
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And this is the meat, the core, of the whole issue. Why do we have a Bible if there's no need to heed its teachings?
 
Theo1689 said:
You know, for once I thought you took the time to actually write some original material.
I should have known better.
All you did was cut-and-paste from lds.org.
At least you gave the link, so you can't be accused of plagiarism.
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Chuckle, coming from a Hy------!

Theo1689 said:
Your source misrepresents Lewis.

"No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good."
[...]
"We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means—the only complete realist. Very well, then. The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practise the Christian virtues is that we fail. If there was any idea that God had set us a sort of exam, and that we might get good marks by deserving them, that has to be wiped out. If there was any idea of a sort of bargain—any idea that we could perform our side of the contract and thus put God in our debts so that it was up to Him, in mere justice, to perform His side—that has to be wiped out."
[...]
I am trying to talk about Faith in the second sense, the higher sense. I said last week that the question of Faith in this sense arises after a man has tried his level best to practise the Christian virtues, and found that he fails, and seen that even if he could he would only be giving back to God what was already God's own. In other words, he discovers his bankruptcy.
[...]
He is misunderstanding what he is and what God is. And he cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy.
[...]
Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't."
-- Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity . CrossReach Publications. Kindle Edition.
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Whoops, is that a cut and paste? tell me not... chuckle.


Theo1689 said:
Here is the actual quote from LewisH:

"Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me that asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faiht in Christ is the ONLY thing to save you from despair at that point; and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come."
-- C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christiantity, Ch. 12, "Faith".
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I agree, when one comes completely unto Christ and you're saved by Grace and Mercy you will do the works of God. Obedience, covenants, ordinances etc. Nice try.



Theo1689 said:
So despite Lewis' humility, what he meant by the "scissors" analogy is that you first need works, to convince you of your bankruptcy ("bring you to the poin where you throw up the sponge", and then faith, which saves, and inevitably results in good actions as a RESULT of one's salvation, not as a "requirement" for one's salvation.
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Well good buddy, Baptism is a work and ordinance of God, that is the reason you can easily state baptism is not essential...if you did admit it was essential then you would have to admit to grace and works... nice try.
 
Mormons don't even understand Mormonism! They should, as good Mormons, spend more time studying their manuals. Instead they find pleasure nitpicking at Carm.

The Nature and Purpose of Law
Enrichment G

(G-l) Introduction
A significant aspect of this earthly existence is that
all things are governed by law. Law gives order and
purpose to the universe. Law provides the way for
the Saints to grow, progress, and obtain happiness.
That being the case, they need to understand the
nature of law; the source of law; the means by
which they can know true laws; the results of the
application of laws, or what one may obtain by
following the laws of God; and how the Lord has
counseled His children to act in relationship to laws
so that they can obtain the greatest benefits.
The Doctrine and Covenants helps the Saints to
understand the nature, purpose, and effects of law.

But the Mormons who post here can only accuse non-Mormons of not understanding what they themselves don't understand.
 
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