Mormonism: Romans 4:16. How Are Men Justified?

[Theo1689]

The Book of Mormon is my evidence. Read it, pray about it.

I've done so.
And the BoM is bankrupt as far as "evidence" is concerned.

What are you talking about? I was summarizing the premise of Mormonism vs protestant & catholic churches.

... the latter half being OFF-TOPIC in this forum.

Haters gonna hate, I suppose.

Personal attack duly noted.
And the hypocrisy. You constantly make personal comments about me, but you whine and throw a hissy-fit if I make comments about you.

 

[Aaron32]

So even though she was a Mormon, she doesn't necessarily understand Mormonism.

Oh no, here comes the rooster out to protect the hens.
I'm sorry. Where exactly do you think she has the right to represent all mormons when she's not quoting directly?
What gives her that authority?

This is the lame game you always play, Aaron.

Yes, in reaction to the games you guys always play. It gets exhausting doesn't it?

I guess we should do the same thing and assume that you, BoJ, and Richard don't necessarily understand Mormonism either, right?

Most definitely. Ask, seek, knock, search, ponder, and pray to know for yourself. That will be between you and God.
In the meantime, if you have a conclusion that runs contrary to what I believe, I'll probably refute your claims with evidence.

Really?!
So how long were you an evangelical Christian, to be able to understand "both sides"?

I worked for a gentleman who was a youth pastor. We had many deep discussions. I came to understand protestant Christianity well.
I listen to many Christian radio sermons. One of the nicest guys I've ever met was Jim Andrews who is a Pastor, Teacher, and Author who has a radio broadcast in portland called "The Final Word Radio". He showed me around his church, and the sources he received to learn about Mormonism. We email each other on occasion. I also call up Matt Slick. Almost every Christian pastor I come across always tell me "Thou art not far from the kingdom of god" - if I only I'd just kick off my mormon religion. So, if I misunderstand Christianity, feel free to let me know where I'm getting it wrong. I often defend Christianity against claims made by mormons here, and I haven't seen you, or anyone else, correct me.

Does everyone see the extreme hypocrisy here?
Mormons are claiming that even though ex-Mormons have spent many years sincerely believing Mormonism, that they "don't understand".
Yet on the other hand, Mormons claim they understand Christianity despite NEVER living as a Christian.
Double standards much?

I don't have to be a member to understand your beliefs.
If I made a false claim about what you believed, and you corrected me, then I'd stop making that claim.
I don't make strawmen arguments of your beliefs, and I'm asking you, and @Janice Bower to not do so as well.
But if you are going to continue with a given narrative that I challenge, atleast have the spine to stick with the discussion and continue to defend your point, and explain why I'm wrong and you're right. But I never see you do that. Instead, I get lame responses like "I never claimed what degree I understood your beliefs."

 

[Aaron32]

You think Joseph Smith's negative assessment was the correct one. I don't.

Ummm...ok. So, agree to disagree? Or what?

 

[Theo1689]

Oh no, here comes the rooster out to protect the hens.

Why are you so rude and disrespectful to women, Aaron?

I worked for a gentleman who was a youth pastor. We had many deep discussions. I came to understand protestant Christianity well.

So if you can have a "good understanding" of Christianity without ever being a Christian, then non-Mormons can have a good understanding of Mormonism without being Mormon.
Otherwise you're a hypocrite.
So let's have no more of that "they never understood Mormonism" nonsense.

I listen to many Christian radio sermons.

And I've listened to many GC's.
Are you beginning to see your blatant double standard yet?

I've also spent 10 years in email exchanges with a Mormon where we likewise got into deep discussion of Mormonism, as well as my own beliefs.

I don't have to be a member to understand your beliefs.

And I don't have to be a Mormon to understand YOUR beliefs.
Are you beginning to see your hypocrisy yet, Aaron?

And FYI, you DON'T understand my beliefs at all.
Either that, or you are intentionally misrepresenting them.
I wonder which it is?

If I made a false claim about what you believed, and you corrected me, then I'd stop making that claim.

Yes, you'd love that.
You make a false and OFF-TOPIC claim about Christianity.
And then you want me to CONTINUE the off-topic discussing by "correcting" you.
And then you would argue that my correction was wrong, and we continue the OFF-TOPIC discussion of Christianity, instead of debating Mormonism.

Yes, I'm sure you'd love that.
Because that's all you do, derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism to try to attack Christianity in the first place.

But that's the issue, Aaron.... You shouldn't be MAKING any claims about our beliefs in the first place, for us to have to "correct".

I don't make strawmen arguments of your beliefs, and I'm asking you, and @Janice Bower to not do so as well.

We don't.
You've already admitted that you don't agree with everything your church teaches.
And so if we make a valid argument, and it's not against something you believe, then it is NOT a "straw-man" argument.

Once again, this is NOT the "Aaron32" forum.
And once again, we're not your slaves.
You don't get to order us around.
So kindly knock it off.

But if you are going to continue with a given narrative that I challenge, atleast have the spine to stick with the discussion and continue to defend your point, and explain why I'm wrong and you're right.

We're not your slaves, Aaron.
You don't get to order us around.
If we feel a discussion has reached its natural conclusion, you can't force us to conitinue, just because you want to keep arguing for no purpose.

 

[Janice Bower]

Most definitely. Ask, seek, knock, search, ponder, and pray to know for yourself. That will be between you and God.

I did. The true God told me to leave Mormonism.

 

[Aaron32]

edited--bickering

EDITED--BICKERING.

So if you can have a "good understanding" of Christianity without ever being a Christian, then non-Mormons can have a good understanding of Mormonism without being Mormon.

That's only as true as the evidence presents itself. You have to prove you understand mormonism, and if your end conclusion is essentially "mormonism is a ball of confusion with a bunch of contradictions" (as many of our critics claim) then it's evidence that they don't understand it.

Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Nope.

So let's have no more of that "they never understood Mormonism" nonsense.

I'll say what I want, thanks. And if you need substantiation of my claims, I'll be happy to provide.

And I've listened to many GC's.
Are you beginning to see your blatant double standard yet?

Nope.

I've also spent 10 years in email exchanges with a Mormon where we likewise got into deep discussion of Mormonism, as well as my own beliefs.

Ok. So why do you avoid such conversations here?

And I don't have to be a Mormon to understand YOUR beliefs.
Are you beginning to see your hypocrisy yet, Aaron?

Right. But you still have to substantiate your claims to prove them as true.

And FYI, you DON'T understand my beliefs at all.
Either that, or you are intentionally misrepresenting them.
I wonder which it is?

Can you give me an example?

Yes, you'd love that.
You make a false and OFF-TOPIC claim about Christianity.
And then you want me to CONTINUE the off-topic discussing by "correcting" you.
And then you would argue that my correction was wrong, and we continue the OFF-TOPIC discussion of Christianity, instead of debating Mormonism.

Ok. So we take the discussion to another board, what's the problem?

Yes, I'm sure you'd love that.
Because that's all you do, derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism to try to attack Christianity in the first place.

What is it about Mormonism do you feel I've avoided?

But that's the issue, Aaron.... You shouldn't be MAKING any claims about our beliefs in the first place, for us to have to "correct".

If that's the case, it's usually because your using your beliefs, not the bible itself, as a criteria of judging my beliefs.
And/or your making an instantiated claim about my beliefs in general that defies logic. I have a right to examine those claims.
Give facts, provide context and you can avoid such responses as described above. Other people can and have done it, I'm sure it's within your wheelhouse as well.

We don't.

I've demonstrated multiple times that you do.

You've already admitted that you don't agree with everything your church teaches.

Nothing in anything that is pertinent to my salvation.

And so if we make a valid argument, and it's not against something you believe, then it is NOT a "straw-man" argument.

Fair enough. So make a valid argument which includes a claim and supporting evidence. And then we can debate the evidence and the conclusion.

Once again, this is NOT the "Aaron32" forum.
And once again, we're not your slaves.
You don't get to order us around.
So kindly knock it off.

So you feel that you have a right to legitimately make strawman arguments, that should go un-refuted, otherwise I'm imposing slavery upon you? That's interesting.

We're not your slaves, Aaron.
You don't get to order us around.
If we feel a discussion has reached its natural conclusion, you can't force us to conitinue, just because you want to keep arguing for no purpose.

So if you make a false statement, and I say "How did you draw that conclusion?" or name the fallacy you're guilty of - You believe that the discussion has reached it's natural conclusion?
I'm not holding a gun to your head. Feel free to stop responding at any time.

 

[Aaron32]

I did. The true God told me to leave Mormonism.

Good for you. That's between you and God.
But don't pretend that you understand Mormonism the same way I do, or think you can teach on our behalf, or make blanket statements about us without expecting me to correct you if you're wrong.

 

[Theo1689]

Why do you feel that they can't defend themselves,

I never said anything of the sort.
Why are you constantly misrepresenting me?
Btw, this forum is NOT about me.

And why should they HAVE to "defend" themselves in the first place?
WHy can't you smiply refrain from being rude and disrespectful to them?

and you have to butt-in to our conversation?

I guess you don't understand anything, do you?
This isn't a "private" conversation.
You're posting on a PUBLIC discussion board.
You need to stop trying to order people out of your interactions.

And the forum is also not about discussing "gals" or "hens".
So kindly knock it off.

That's only as true as the evidence presents itself. You have to prove you understand mormonism, and if your end conclusion is essentially "mormonism is a ball of confusion with a bunch of contradictions" (as many of our critics claim) then it's evidence that they don't understand it.

Or that YOU don't understand it.

I'll say what I want, thanks.

And we'll say what WE want.
Do you see how that works?
Now stop trying to order everyone around.
We are not your slaves.

Ok. So why do you avoid such conversations here?

What part of "off-topic" don't you understand]?
What part of "derailing away from Mormonism" don't you understand?

Right. But you still have to substantiate your claims to prove them as true.

Yet you never prove YOUR claims.
So why the blatant double standard, Aaron?

Ok. So we take the discussion to another board, what's the problem?

Nobody's stopping you from doing that.

If that's the case, it's usually because your using your beliefs, not the bible itself, as a criteria of judging my beliefs.

That is false.
As everyone here can attest, I simply use BIBLE to condemn your heretical beliefs.

And/or your making an instantiated claim about my beliefs in general that defies logic.

This is not the "Aaron32" forum.
If I make a valid claim about Mormonism, and you disagree with Mormons on that doctrine, that is NOT my problem. That is YOUR problem.

I've demonstrated multiple times that you do.

No, you haven't.
And any attempt by you to do so is not only a personal attack, but off-topic.

So you feel that you have a right to legitimately make strawman arguments, that should go un-refuted, otherwise I'm imposing slavery upon you? That's interesting.

I haven't MADE any "straw-man arguments".
I'm arguing against Mormonism, not against "Aaron32-ism".

So if you make a false statement, and I say "How did you draw that conclusion?" or name the fallacy you're guilty of - You believe that the discussion has reached it's natural conclusion?
I'm not holding a gun to your head. Feel free to stop responding at any time.

And feel free to stop ordering me to continue, at any time.
I'm not your slave.
You don't get to bark orders at me.

 

[brotherofJared]

Pew polls aren't biblical.

The polls still say that members of our church are more scripturally literate that members of other Christian churches. It doesn't matter if it's biblical or not. It's just a simple fact.

 

[brotherofJared]

You think Joseph Smith's negative assessment was the correct one. I don't.

Uh huh. So, your opinion is the only thing that matters in spite of the facts. Got it.

 

[Theo1689]

The polls still say that members of our church are more scripturally literate that members of other Christian churches. It doesn't matter if it's biblical or not. It's just a simple fact.

That means absolutely nothing, since Mormons have a false gospel.

 

[Janice Bower]

Polls are not God breathed.

 

[Aaron32]

I never said anything of the sort.
Why are you constantly misrepresenting me?
Btw, this forum is NOT about me.

And why should they HAVE to "defend" themselves in the first place?
WHy can't you smiply refrain from being rude and disrespectful to them?



I guess you don't understand anything, do you?
This isn't a "private" conversation.
You're posting on a PUBLIC discussion board.
You need to stop trying to order people out of your interactions.

And the forum is also not about discussing "gals" or "hens".
So kindly knock it off.



Or that YOU don't understand it.



And we'll say what WE want.
Do you see how that works?
Now stop trying to order everyone around.
We are not your slaves.



What part of "off-topic" don't you understand]?
What part of "derailing away from Mormonism" don't you understand?



Yet you never prove YOUR claims.
So why the blatant double standard, Aaron?



Nobody's stopping you from doing that.



That is false.
As everyone here can attest, I simply use BIBLE to condemn your heretical beliefs.



This is not the "Aaron32" forum.
If I make a valid claim about Mormonism, and you disagree with Mormons on that doctrine, that is NOT my problem. That is YOUR problem.



No, you haven't.
And any attempt by you to do so is not only a personal attack, but off-topic.



I haven't MADE any "straw-man arguments".
I'm arguing against Mormonism, not against "Aaron32-ism".



And feel free to stop ordering me to continue, at any time.
I'm not your slave.
You don't get to bark orders at me.

Is there anything of substance here other than petty bickering? Nope. Moving on.

 

[Theo1689]

Is there anything of substance here other than petty bickering? Nope. Moving on.

If you don't like posts that you erroneously call "petty bickering", then you need to STOP making false claims about me.

You falsely claimed I felt Janice and Bonnie couldn't defend themselves.
That is NOT true.
They are perfectly capable of defending themselves.'

If you don't like it when people call you out on your false claims, then you need to man up and apologize and admit you're wrong, and stop making false claims about others, and stop excusing it by calling it "petty bickering".

And you know what? Just because you're being ilke this, I'm going to go back and report your post.

 

[Janice Bower]

If you don't like posts that you erroneously call "petty bickering", then you need to STOP making false claims about me.

You falsely claimed I felt Janice and Bonnie couldn't defend themselves.
That is NOT true.
They are perfectly capable of defending themselves.'

If you don't like it when people call you out on your false claims, then you need to man up and apologize and admit you're wrong, and stop making false claims about others, and stop excusing it by calling it "petty bickering".

And you know what? Just because you're being ilke this, I'm going to go back and report your post.

AMEN!